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No Frameworks?


Zephrosyne

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

The biggest pain is the VPP. Nothing slows a game down like The Cosmic Wonder trying to come up with something on the fly to combat the Flying Apples of Granny Smith.

 

That's why when I play a VPP character, I try to have tons of all-purpose effects figured out ahead of time. As a GM, if someone not making reasonable efforts along that line ends up slowing the game on a regular basis, I dock XP.

 

Really, as slow-moving as HERO combat tends to be, there's little excuse for waiting for one's own turn to allocate VPP points very often.

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

Elemental control: apple powers

 

1. Transform air to apples (3d6 major transform)

2. Hypervelocity apples (3d6 RKA)

 

Your point being....?

That being my point exactly, "Apple Powers" is not a SFX. Its a pathetic end-run around the SFX stipulation and any player offering up such an obvious point-grabbing excuse for an EC deserves to get a smack on his Density Increase. Now if your Apple Powers EC was a CE: Make me Red, FF: Make me Crunchy and Shape Shift: Make me juicy...now that might work.

 

Not quite sure why you would want to be an apple though.

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

Games have arbitrary elements. Does that maneuver justify a +1 or a +2 bonus? What happens when someone rolls two 1s on Unluck? It's not entirely arbitrary, but it isn't chemistry, either.

 

 

 

If someone put appropriate Limitations on the Mind Control - starting with "vs. CON, not EGO - that might work. The point is, it's not completely arbitrary there - gravity control doesn't fly, electricity might.

 

 

With the appropriate Limitations, maybe. It's a case-by-case basis. That's always going to be the case in a game system that uses general effects. Some concepts are still more coherent than others, though.

 

The point is that you're just penalising the dimmer player: and they already have enough problems to cope with.

 

The power gamer will come up with the concept after coming up with the powers, the true role player willdo it the other way around BUT looking at the characters afterwards, you won't see the join.

 

I'm not against ECs - like I said I've used them, but I do think that they are overused: this from Edsel earlier in this thread:

 

I'll echo the general sentiment so far that power frameworks are generally a good thing. I don't think that I've ever built a superhero character that lacked one. You could, perhaps, disallow Variable Power Pools since they are the most prone to abuse. But a game that lacked Elemental Controls and Multipowers is almost unthinkable to me.

 

...and I think that there is little justification for making the grant of an EC conditional on a player coming up with a common theme you are happy with, so long as ther is a common theme or SFX. If they think they can mind control someone with gravity, maybe we'll discover one day that you can, in the meantime, stock up on villains like Auntie Grav, with her astonishing array of dispels and supresses that work against that particular effect...

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

Nope, nope and nope. The sword and armour could not be in an EC together. Two different SFX (one sword, one armour). Secondly, I would take a good REALLY REALLY hard look at an EC built through a focus. If anything the Sword (EGO Attack/HKA) should be built as an MP.

 

This is what the discussion about a common SFX is talking about. While you COULD pretend to come up with a justification (as above), any casual glance shows that the justicifcation is a lot of smoke.

 

 

How about I create thousands of little soldiers and adventurers who are spiritual manifestations of my subconscious. The shieldsmen automatically interpose their shields between my foes and myself while I can order the wizards to cast sleep spells or the swordsmen to slash at my foes.

 

These subconscious manifestations take no time to appear and can be activated instantly, so duplication or summon aren't valid.

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

Nope, nope and nope. The sword and armour could not be in an EC together. Two different SFX (one sword, one armour). Secondly, I would take a good REALLY REALLY hard look at an EC built through a focus. If anything the Sword (EGO Attack/HKA) should be built as an MP.

 

This is what the discussion about a common SFX is talking about. While you COULD pretend to come up with a justification (as above), any casual glance shows that the justicifcation is a lot of smoke.

 

Who said they were focii? They are physical manifestations of my inner Rightousness. My smoke powers are in the MP.

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

That being my point exactly, "Apple Powers" is not a SFX. Its a pathetic end-run around the SFX stipulation and any player offering up such an obvious point-grabbing excuse for an EC deserves to get a smack on his Density Increase. Now if your Apple Powers EC was a CE: Make me Red, FF: Make me Crunchy and Shape Shift: Make me juicy...now that might work.

 

Not quite sure why you would want to be an apple though.

 

Apple powers is just as much a SFX as fire powers. You just think it is silly. I agree with you.

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

Here's one for you. Fire powers, force field 12/12, a staple of any number of ECs. The physical bit is defined as melting whatever is thrown at him. I shoot you. I don't think 4 grains of melted lead is going to do much less damage than 4 grains of solid lead. Might convert kill damage to normal damage...

 

I punch you, my fist doesn't melt.

 

This is 'justified' in any number of comic books and official Hero products, but unless you have a desolid 'body of fire', being on fire is not going to protect you from physical attacks, but we just let that one slide because Fire Powers make a proper EC. I come up with apple powers, and everyone is on my case...Long Live Granny Smith!!

 

OK I'm sure you'll never allow this level of abuse in your game, but it is happening...

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

That's why when I play a VPP character, I try to have tons of all-purpose effects figured out ahead of time. As a GM, if someone not making reasonable efforts along that line ends up slowing the game on a regular basis, I dock XP.

 

Really, as slow-moving as HERO combat tends to be, there's little excuse for waiting for one's own turn to allocate VPP points very often.

 

You are a saint, but one who walks into my subtle trap...if you are defining your VPP slots ahead of time, it is just a cheaper version of a MP, or you wouldn't be buying it. How can that be right?

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

That being my point exactly, "Apple Powers" is not a SFX. Its a pathetic end-run around the SFX stipulation and any player offering up such an obvious point-grabbing excuse for an EC deserves to get a smack on his Density Increase. Now if your Apple Powers EC was a CE: Make me Red, FF: Make me Crunchy and Shape Shift: Make me juicy...now that might work.

 

Not quite sure why you would want to be an apple though.

 

 

...and HKA: Make me sharp! Now we really are comparing apples and killing attacks...

 

Gods, but I love this game...

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

You are a saint' date=' but one who walks into my subtle trap...if you are defining your VPP slots ahead of time, it is just a cheaper version of a MP, or you wouldn't be buying it. How can that be right?[/quote']

 

Except it's usually not cheaper, unless you are comparing it to a MP with a really huge number of slots.

 

One gains flexibility at point cost. I don't think it's broken at all.

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

Here's one for you. Fire powers, force field 12/12, a staple of any number of ECs. The physical bit is defined as melting whatever is thrown at him. I shoot you. I don't think 4 grains of melted lead is going to do much less damage than 4 grains of solid lead. Might convert kill damage to normal damage...

 

I punch you, my fist doesn't melt.

 

This is 'justified' in any number of comic books and official Hero products,

 

There's the key. It works that way in the comics. The powers in HERO were designed to reflect comic books. Thus, they work that way.

 

It's not physics.

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

Except it's usually not cheaper, unless you are comparing it to a MP with a really huge number of slots.

 

One gains flexibility at point cost. I don't think it's broken at all.

 

 

Gravitar would actually find it cheaper to replace her multipower with a Cosmic VPP with -1/2 Gravity Powers only.

 

And Menton would also be better served with a Cosmic VPP instead of multipower. It'd be a trifle more expensive, but he can have many more powers and he doesn't have to waste points on other classes of minds.

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

As the last cluster of posts may prove - there are a lot of arguments as to what constitues a valid common sfx for a framework. You are going to get the same situation between a player and a GM. A point-mongerer will try to pull a fast one using frameworks: his concern is squeezing maximum benefit and maxium effectiveness for the least cost. If he's worth his salt, he's going to try and use frameworks to wring out an advantage over other players. By removing frameworks, you remove one path in his arsenal.

 

As a GM, you are on less firm footing arguing against a set of powers being a common sfx. The player can stubbornly rejoin with "but it IS reasonable". You have two opposing viewpoints - both based on subjective evaluations. Potentially, you get bogged down in an argument that doesn't get resolved until the GM puts his foot down with "it's my game, my rules".

 

Contrast with this:

The player comes up with a set of powers, maybe with a common sfx, maybe not. A coherent concept will probably be more enjoyable for the player but it's his option to go that route or not. If the cost of powers is past the level that the GM has set for all players, then the petitioning player needs to justify why he should get the extra points. The GM can ask:

"Why should this character get more points than the others?"

"Can't you get the needed points by dropping some of the powers that don't fit the concept?"

"You'd be extremely more effective than the other characters if I give you extra points - sorry."

"The powers you've suggested seem on the same level as the other PCs but it looks like the costs just don't happen to agree with the effectiveness. Here are some extra points to get the concept off the ground".

 

It's a lot easier for the GM to support his side in this situation rather debating if a set of powers are justified under a common special effect. You're not going to get away from all arguments from your players, but one less thing that you're likely to have to argue against, the better. IMO.

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

Just give more points. If you feel 350 doesn't give the right feel' date=' then just start the players off with 500 or 600.[/quote']

 

More like 900-1000. Even Witchcraft would top 630 just from converting her multipower to individual powers. Add 15 for the EC being removed and, lets say 123 net points from giving her spells to replace her VPP, and Witchcraft now comes out as more expensive than my starting Sentinels campaign character.

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

Just a side point: Don't argue with your players, and don't argue with your GM. Establish clear communication, make sure that you understand each-other, but after that bickering is pointless. What the GM says, goes; if the player won't accept that, you're not going to be happy in that campaign anyway.

 

Myself, I reserve the right to re-write any character presented for one of my games, and I usually just ask for a background and character description then write the mechanics sections myself.

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

More like 900-1000. Even Witchcraft would top 630 just from converting her multipower to individual powers. Add 15 for the EC being removed and' date=' lets say 123 net points from giving her spells to replace her VPP, and Witchcraft now comes out as more expensive than my starting Sentinels campaign character.[/quote']

 

Is this an argument for or against? I mean, getting access to 1000 points of power for 350 points seems like a major bargain to me...

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

Gravitar would actually find it cheaper to replace her multipower with a Cosmic VPP with -1/2 Gravity Powers only.

 

And Menton would also be better served with a Cosmic VPP instead of multipower. It'd be a trifle more expensive, but he can have many more powers and he doesn't have to waste points on other classes of minds.

 

I rebuilt Menton that way for my campaign. He's vastly more dangerous that way. Characters at a certain power level generally work better with a VPP than a Multipower, particularly if said characters are supposed to be masters of some wide-ranging effect such as "mental powers" or "matter transmutation."

 

Gravitar might benefit from doing a VPP like that in place of her MP, but leaving her EC and her independent TK powers alone. Having her stuff spread out like that is a crucial part of her build, one that allows her to effectively fight many hero teams - namely, she is able to do devastating Multiple Power Attacks and to attack effectively while maintaining some powerful ongoing effects like the Area TK. Putting all her stuff in a VPP would probably make her substantially weaker.

 

For purposes of representing the way characters work in comic books, a great many characters should have VPPs, actually - usually very small ones. This represents the number of odd things a super-stretcher like Plastic Man can do, or all the small, mundane uses a character like the Human Torch or Iceman might find for fire or cold. VPPs need not be large to be useful. A character with light/energy/quantum powers can benefit quite a bit in versatility and conceptual soundness by having a 20-30 pt vpp for things like Images, Change Environment, small/gradual Transform effects and the like.

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

Is this an argument for or against? I mean' date=' getting access to 1000 points of power for 350 points seems like a major bargain to me...[/quote']

 

To me, it's an argument for, because once again, that's how characters work in the comics. Some characters can only do one or two things - Power Man, Spider-Man, Tigra and She-Hulk come to mind. Other characters can do a lot of things, but usually not at the same time, and any individual thing they does is not necessarily more effective than what the one-trick character does. The Human Torch and Hawkeye are examples. Yet, these characters coexist as more or less equals. They only way to effectively build both types of characters for similar point costs is through Power Frameworks.

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

For purposes of representing the way characters work in comic books, a great many characters should have VPPs, actually - usually very small ones. This represents the number of odd things a super-stretcher like Plastic Man can do, or all the small, mundane uses a character like the Human Torch or Iceman might find for fire or cold. VPPs need not be large to be useful. A character with light/energy/quantum powers can benefit quite a bit in versatility and conceptual soundness by having a 20-30 pt vpp for things like Images, Change Environment, small/gradual Transform effects and the like.

 

At the risk of taking this off on further tangents (hey... that is what thread are for, I'm sure...) this bit out "mini-VPPs" is something I take care of with my "Luck Chit" rules... the fate system. It's a matter of taste, I realize, but tacking on a mini-VPP to every character just to offer flexibility is too cumbersome for me. My chit system allows certain chits to be thrown to do SFX appropriate things as a one time action, even if you didn't buy the power. Example: Flame guy wants to try and douse a boiler fire to save a trapped kid, but doens't have "suppress"... if he has the right chit, he turns the Active Points of say his EB into a "Suppress flame" or whatever for one round, and does it.

 

Now... if someone wants a character with more reliable flexibility... they use their powers in a myriad of ways ALL THE TIME and not just special occasions... heck yeah... VPP or every expanding Multi-power is the way to go. It's just with my luck chit/hero point system, I've found that most characters who only need that flexibility once in a while, can get away without them.

 

YMMV

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

You are a saint' date=' but one who walks into my subtle trap...if you are defining your VPP slots ahead of time, it is just a cheaper version of a MP, or you wouldn't be buying it. How can that be right?[/quote']

 

Because you can redefine them or come up with new ones between sessions, or in slow times during play. You can also have multiple lists pre-defined and switch between them at will, or have a massive list of pre-defined and costs and pick from them on the fly. A multipower is a static list.

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

There's the key. It works that way in the comics. The powers in HERO were designed to reflect comic books. Thus, they work that way.

 

It's not physics.

 

Depends which comics you read. Comes back to the different perspectives point: one man's legitimate EC is another man's rules abuse.

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

Except it's usually not cheaper, unless you are comparing it to a MP with a really huge number of slots.

 

One gains flexibility at point cost. I don't think it's broken at all.

 

Let us work an example:

 

40 point MP, using multi slots vs a 40 point cosmic (+2) VPP.

 

More than 7 powers in the MP, and it costs more than the VPP. That is not a huge number.

 

Moreover the real advantage of a cosmic VPP is this: you build the slots as you go. You can't meaningfully put senses in a MP (or at least it is relatively expensive to do so), but you can in a VPP (how? Guess, go on...)

 

It allows you to tailor transforms and drains, dispels and supresses without all those pesky and costly advantages you would otherwise need: you can, in effect exceed campaign active point cost maxima - a transform anything to anything in a 60 point per power campaign means 2d6 major transform. With a VPP, you don't need that +1 advantage that ramps up the cost and you can have 4d6 transform anything to anything.

 

Point is it is cheaper and more useful than a multipower, so if VPP ain't broke, MP is...

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Re: No Frameworks?

 

Because you can redefine them or come up with new ones between sessions' date=' or in slow times during play. You can also have multiple lists pre-defined and switch between them at will, or have a massive list of pre-defined and costs and pick from them on the fly. A multipower is a static list.[/quote']

 

Yes...I think we agree, a VPP is cheaper and more useful than a MP...how can that be right, assuming you advocate balance in your games, and you are not just powergaming frameworks using the 'coherent design' thing as, well, smoke...?

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