Jump to content

Schmucks?


nexus

Recommended Posts

The opinion was voiced recently that 350 point character are "schmucks" in the Dark Champions forum. Not my choice of words, but there you have it. How many people share that opinion? Personally, I've found the 350 or so level is where I most enjoy Champions and I've found the characters (creatively created and used) to be pretty competent and fun to play. Compared to Monsters like Dr. Destroyer and Tyrannanon? I guess not, but I tend to rate characters more on what they are in the "real world". Maybe it comes from using Hero more on the Hero level than the Superheroic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 621
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Re: Schmucks?

 

The opinion was voiced recently that 350 point character are "schmucks" in the Dark Champions forum. Not my choice of words' date=' but there you have it. How many people share that opinion? Personally, I've found the 350 or so level is where I most enjoy Champions and I've found the characters (creatively created and used) to be pretty competent and fun to play. Compared to Monsters like Dr. Destroyer and Tyrannanon? I guess not, but I tend to rate characters more on what they are in the "real world". Maybe it comes from using Hero more on the Hero level than the Superheroic.[/quote']

 

350 points is plenty for a decent superhero. I'm still getting used to that exhalted level after the 250 point starting point of previous editions, and that created some pretty beefy characters.

 

I agree with you nexus; IMO, any schmuck can spend more points. If whoever posted that wants to play Captain Ultimate, or whatever, knock yourself out, and don't have a go at me for preferring characters that are more of a challenge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

The opinion was voiced recently that 350 point character are "schmucks" in the Dark Champions forum. Not my choice of words, but there you have it. How many people share that opinion?

 

No, this is twaddle. 350 points adequately covers most of the characters in the source material, at least at the beginning of their careers.

 

Flash, Superman, Batman, Green Lantern... all 350 points or less. Ditto Thor, Spiderman, Captain America, the X-Men, the FF, and so on. Yes, some of these are a bit shoehorned, but they preserve their essential capabilities.

 

There is a "problem" with point bloat in the current version of the CU. Because the CU has to be able to handle PCs built on almost any imaginable points total, there have to be insanely powerful villains. That means that Dr Destroyer is built to deal with cosmically powerful characters, not 350 pointers.

 

The solution to that is simple: ignore Dr Destroyer. He simply doesn't exist in my CU. Mechanon does, but he is based on an earlier edition's version.

 

There are a few issues involved in balancing characters against "real world" weapons and materials, but these are manageable. The biggest problem is actually that most superheroes aren't bulletproof!

 

I'm tempted to suggest something insulting about the proponents of the "350 point characters are schmucks" theory, but it's pointless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

If your game world is populated by 1000 point monsters, then you need a 750+ point character to compete. If it is mainly 'normals' with a selection of villains in the 100-400 point range, a 350 point character is powerful, and probably too high to start on.

 

In 'real world' terms, virtually any level of power is 'powerful'.

 

This is not a question with a right answer, I think the real problem is that some people seem to think there is one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

That's basically my veiwpoint. It is a matter of scale. For example, my Redwood Academy game is based on 200 points (Its a "TV supers" style game). There "big names" in that world are about 300 points. The character compared to the vast majority of NPCs are extraordinarely powerful. Harmony can throw around cars with her mind, Sludge is nearly invulnerable to conventional attack. In a high level Champions game though, they'd be much lees threatening, but I don't consider them "schmucks" (or lesser heroes) because they're world works on a different scale.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

Actually, yeah, he usually does make them look like schmucks. The same with Batman or Superman.

 

Now, I do agree with the point you made that PCs need to be powerful and cool. That's why I start mine with a lot more points. I'm sorry, but 350 point characters are schmucks.

 

The problem you get otherwise is the one I have with the regular Champions Universe. You've got all these powerful villains and no one to stop them. Who is gonna stop Gravitar? It's certainly not the Champions. There have to be heroes around who can stop the big bad guys. It doesn't matter if Captain Infinity makes the PCs say "wow, there's no way we could ever beat him". That's a lot better than Dr Destroyer making the heroes say "wow, there's no way we could ever beat him".

 

I look at the 5th Edition world and I say "Why hasn't Dr Destroyer taken over yet? Oh, it must be because Takofanes would stop him." The truth is, 350 point characters don't compete with the high-end villains. They are, bluntly, schmucks. There need to be heroes out there who can handle the real bad guys.

 

Harbinger? In 4th Edition, he'd handle guys like Andre Panthanatos, Master Hu, and the Weasel. Because PCs sure as hell couldn't.

 

I think Nexus's post was disingenious, therefor I post the relevant post. Yes, he said schmucks in comparision to Takofenes & DR Destroyer. Anyone care to disagree with "schmucks" and tell me about the 350 pointers who took down either of these two?

 

I can build one but no GM would let me play it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

I think a contributing factor is the fact that Dark Champions generally requires a greater investment in peks and skills (esp. background skills) - and for some characters - equipment. So while you average dark avenger may have somewhat lower damage classes and defenses he has a higher investment in gear, perks, and skills - which sometimes outstrips the savings. At the same time, depending on interpretational issues, a good character can be made of 300-350 points.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

I think Nexus's post was disingenious, therefor I post the relevant post. Yes, he said schmucks in comparision to Takofenes & DR Destroyer. Anyone care to disagree with "schmucks" and tell me about the 350 pointers who took down either of these two?

 

I can build one but no GM would let me play it.

 

I added the bold face, because that's an important point. :) If you are going to use Takafones, you'd best let your players design characters with a chance of beating him. You can do that by permitting more points, or by allowing more optimized builds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

The situation is a case of circular logic.

 

The megavillains exist in the CU to provide opponents for high powered PCs.

 

Now we are being told that PCs have to be higher powered to be able to deal with the megavillains!

 

Obviously the alternative solution is to ignore the megavillains.

 

Yes, there is a discrepancy in power levels between the villains and the heroes in the canonical CU, but that's really only a problem for those who care to make it one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

Doctor Destroyer has been around almost twenty years (maybe more). I remember back when he was 1000+ character, but still defeatable. He has continued to grown in power over the years, and the sample heros (the Champions) have not. But anyone who has been playing the same character for more than a few years probably has a character that can take on Destroyer and survive.

 

Villains like Takofanes get taken down by great masses of superheroes, not by solo heroes or even small teams. Says so in his write-up.

 

Part of the reason that the heroes of the CU are so underdeveloped is because we, the people who play Champions, are suppossed to be providing them. If you think the CU needs a team of 700pt powerhouses to stop the mega-villains, then round a group of players and create them. It's that easy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

I think Nexus's post was disingenious, therefor I post the relevant post. Yes, he said schmucks in comparision to Takofenes & DR Destroyer. Anyone care to disagree with "schmucks" and tell me about the 350 pointers who took down either of these two?

 

I can build one but no GM would let me play it.

 

There was no "in comparison to" implied in his statements that I saw. He said (and I can only presume" thinks) 350 point characters are weaklings since they can't handle the "real bad guys" (again, his words not mine). That is why he chooses to start his players with more points. I also didn't name name since I didn't want to start some kind of lets bash Champsguy thread. I've got no problem with him but I don't agree with his apparent assesment of 350 point characters are "schmucks" which to means weaklings or useless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

350 pt characters are about the level of the Teen Titans -- relative to the real world standards reflected in The Ultimate Vehicle and the material strength chart in 5th Edition (although I've been told that there are optional rules in Galactic Champions dealing with that second one).

 

The M2 Bradley (TUV pg 50) -- which as I understand it is not considered a tank by modern military standards -- carries 4 charges of a 5d6 RKA AP EP, 14 DEF and 20 BODY. Ironclad, the Champions brick (Champ pg 184) has a limited chance of being able to hurt one of these unless he makes his Find Weakness roll (which he'll have to make for each tank) or goes for a Haymaker (with which he'll average 2 BODY damage each blow). By comparison a single shot from the M2's missile will average 4-5 BODY and 31 STUN to Ironclad. Of course it's an explosion and therefore not much use if he's in melee range...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

350 pt characters are about the level of the Teen Titans -- relative to the real world standards reflected in The Ultimate Vehicle and the material strength chart in 5th Edition (although I've been told that there are optional rules in Galactic Champions dealing with that second one).

 

The M2 Bradley (TUV pg 50) -- which as I understand it is not considered a tank by modern military standards -- carries 4 charges of a 5d6 RKA AP EP, 14 DEF and 20 BODY. Ironclad, the Champions brick (Champ pg 184) has a limited chance of being able to hurt one of these unless he makes his Find Weakness roll (which he'll have to make for each tank) or goes for a Haymaker (with which he'll average 2 BODY damage each blow). By comparison a single shot from the M2's missile will average 4-5 BODY and 31 STUN to Ironclad. Of course it's an explosion and therefore not much use if he's in melee range...

 

 

That's about where most superbeings should be in relation to heavy military hardware. Yeah, yeah, this is the part where half a dozen people will start in on me about how so-and-so in whatever comicbook punches through tank armor and throws APCs around like beachballs, and that the game should simulate all the most rediculous moments of comicbook history. :rolleyes: Whatever. The deployment of real military hardware should scare most supers, and be a real threat.

 

The problem with military hardware shouldn't be uselessness against supers. The problems should be A) response time -- local superheroes will typically be able to react faster than the nearest military base; B) collateral damage -- superheroes should be capable of more precision and less collateral damage than an M1A2; and C) it's illegal to deply the US military for domestic law enforcement (post-9/11/2001 violations aside).

 

 

(And on a side note, the missiles on a Bradley shouldn't be a big explosion, since they're HEAT warheads.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

That's about where most superbeings should be in relation to heavy military hardware. Yeah, yeah, this is the part where half a dozen people will start in on me about how so-and-so in whatever comicbook punches through tank armor and throws APCs around like beachballs, and that the game should simulate all the most rediculous moments of comicbook history. :rolleyes: Whatever. The deployment of real military hardware should scare most supers, and be a real threat.

 

The problem with military hardware shouldn't be uselessness against supers. The problems should be A) response time -- local superheroes will typically be able to react faster than the nearest military base; B) collateral damage -- superheroes should be capable of more precision and less collateral damage than an M1A2; and C) it's illegal to deply the US military for domestic law enforcement (post-9/11/2001 violations aside).

 

 

(And on a side note, the missiles on a Bradley shouldn't be a big explosion, since they're HEAT warheads.)

 

Yes, but common Hand held ordanance (guns) should not be a problem for most supers, however most will be KO'd by a lucky roll (2d6 RKA=60 stun on max roll), this is not including: AP, AF, Pen, etc...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

Why is the (apparent) underlying assumption that the characters should be able to go toe to toe with Dr. Destroyer?

 

Personally, I love having Dr. Destroyer as this mega-powerful character (compared to the PCs). It forces them to take on an alternate approach from the standard "frontal attack" that they greet most scenarios with.

 

Having villains that vastly outclass the characters in terms of power makes for some very interesting scenarios. Scenarios in which the characters have to outsmart or outwit the villain.

 

If Dr. Destroyer decided that he just wanted to blow us all up (and damn the consequences) could he? Certainly. But that's not his objective. Taking his motivation into account makes things much more difficult for poor Doc. And gives the PCs a chance to foil his nefarious plots.

 

The only thing that you have to be careful of is that the players (and PCs) know how things stand -- that they should in no way, shape, or form try to go toe to toe with Dr. Destroyer. Not unless they bring a LOT of backup. For that matter, they should avoid drawing much of any attention to themselves during their investigation -- don't make yourselves a target.

 

It lends a very different feel to a scenario. One which can be a lot of fun (on both sides) to play.

 

I really have no interest in playing in worlds in which the PCs are powerful enough to take on anyone in existence. Not very interesting, IMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

Doctor Destroyer has been around almost twenty years (maybe more). I remember back when he was 1000+ character' date=' but still defeatable. He has continued to grown in power over the years, and the sample heros (the Champions) have not. But anyone who has been playing the same character for more than a few years probably has a character that can take on Destroyer and survive.[/quote']

 

I shal give tesimony here, (I swear to tell the truth...)

 

Yes this is in 4th but, In the long running game I played in the PCs ended up in Nazi world with Dr D as the head of the place. We fought him. We won (barely). We were all on about 550 or so (Blackcat's group if anyone reads the WWYCD threads). The was using the high end destroyer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

The deployment of real military hardware should scare most supers, and be a real threat.

 

It all depends on the tone of the game, and which kind of comics you want to emulate.

In a Titans game or classic X-men game sure - but what about JLA or Legion style games (or even a really solid Avengers line up). There is no way military hardware should be a threat to those teams. It just doesn't fit the tone. If the team is the worlds best, and standard military might could defeat them, then (aside from responce time) just send the military after the bad guys and let the supers stay home.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

That's about where most superbeings should be in relation to heavy military hardware. Yeah, yeah, this is the part where half a dozen people will start in on me about how so-and-so in whatever comicbook punches through tank armor and throws APCs around like beachballs, and that the game should simulate all the most rediculous moments of comicbook history. :rolleyes: Whatever. The deployment of real military hardware should scare most supers, and be a real threat.

 

The problem with military hardware shouldn't be uselessness against supers. The problems should be A) response time -- local superheroes will typically be able to react faster than the nearest military base; B) collateral damage -- superheroes should be capable of more precision and less collateral damage than an M1A2; and C) it's illegal to deply the US military for domestic law enforcement (post-9/11/2001 violations aside).

 

 

(And on a side note, the missiles on a Bradley shouldn't be a big explosion, since they're HEAT warheads.)

Thats entirely a matter of choice/preference on the part of the GM and not a basic operating assumption by any means.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

Are 350 point characters "Chumps"?

 

Depends entirely on what kind of opposition they face. It's not even a constant either; if the GM switches up the opposition the characters can be dominating in some scenarios and woefully out of their league in others.

 

If the GM uses a lot of goons and the occasional "Lt" as the primary opposition, then assuming the "goons" are lower pointed than the heroes and the "Lt" is limited to sufficient power to resist (but not dominate) 2 or maybe 3 heroes at a time for a short duration then no, the PC's at 350 are capable compared to their primary opposition.

 

If the GM runs supervillain teams that are at least as good as the PCs and the occasional heavy hitter that is decidedly better than the PC's, then they will range from adequate to "chumpy", depending on the exact mix of opponents.

 

However this state of affairs has nothing to do with the number of points the characters have -- the same idea holds true at 150, 500, 1000, and beyond. The points are only meaninful when taken in context as a basis of comparison.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

For all the discussion that has gone on, I think many people are still missing the point of Champsguy's comments.

 

The problem he brings up has several factors, and is a bit complex until you boil it down, but it does exist.

 

Let me begin by saying I do not mean this to "bash" the official C.U.

I am just trying to explain where I think Champsguy is coming from.

 

Let me lay out the factors.

 

1) The CU needs to be able to handle any reasonable level of PC, by providing challenges that would be, well, Challenging. This means that there is a need for some "big bad" villains like Mechanon, Dr. Destroyer, etc.

 

2) Player characters are normally intended to start the game at 350 points.

 

3) Existing Superheroes are not intended to outshine Player Characters (a good idea, since you would not want to constantly feel like your character was "useless" in the grand scheme of things) So they are built on a similar point level.

 

4) The problem is: How the heck is the world still in one piece when all these hugely powerful beings want to destroy it, and no one in the existing universe is strong enough to oppose them?

 

I think that is what Champsguy is pointing out.

The idea of Teams of Heroes is fine, but if you think about it, something like the Battle of Detroit could be going on every week or so.

If there were beings like Mechanon and Dr. Destroyer, etc. would they really be waiting around for your character to gain enough experience to take them on someday?

When there is currently no one powerful enough to oppose them?

 

It is like a story about someone having a open barn full of beehives with a 900 lb. Grizzly bear outside it.

Why doesn't the bear just come in and start eating honey?

Because he is waiting for us to go down to the lumber yard and buy the stuff to build a door?

 

I am not advocating having players start out with characters that can go toe to toe with Mechanon and Dr. Destroyer.

But I can see the point that, if there are no heroes at a power level that can, why does the world still exist?

 

I think that PC's should start out around the (early) Spiderman level.

They should be hell on thugs and bank robbers, and be able to take down a supercriminal after a tough and prolonged fight.

And, they should look at beings like Kang The Conqueror and say:

"Holy Crap! I sure hope The Avengers can handle that guy!"

Maybe someday, after years of experience, they may take part in the "handling", or even have to fight a "delaying action" of their own, until the big guns show up.

 

I think what Champsguy was pointing out is, there are no "Avengers" in the CU. No heroes powerful enough to really oppose the major threats.

 

I understand the logic behind letting player characters be the "stars", but it also leads to the logical inconsistency outlined above.

 

The PC's aren't strong enough to take on the Big Bads.

NPC Superheroes aren't strong enough to take on the Big Bads.

The Big Bads are powerful and motivated enough to take over if no one stops them.

So why haven't they?

 

Again, I don't mean this as a major gripe, I don't have a real problem with the CU as is.

But I do think that, if we are expected to "handwave" this, there should be an "official" handwave, that explains it.

Even something like Captain Universe, where in times of crisis, massive power is granted to someone to oppose the major threat, and after the threat ends the power goes away.

Since no one knows where the power comes from, or when it might stop appearing, there is plenty of motivation to keep training and growing for the day when your PC's do have to take on the big bads.

 

KA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

Pretty much agreed to the word with KA, above.

 

Some other comments:

 

-The Champions Universe is not designed to fit like a glove around any given group of PCs. Its designed to emulate a comic book universe, which includes heroes and villains of *all* tiers. Expecting it to only have villains appropriate for your own game is to demand more focus on your own needs than anyone elses. It also detracts from the fact that the CU is supposed to be a comic book style world.

 

-Military forces deploying *should* be a serious threat. . . for 350 point heroes and villains. For more powerful characters, less so. However, a proviso that I do find vehicles somewhat excessively difficult to damage, mostly due to their immunity to Stun damage and the tight standard deviation on Body damage done by normal attacks.

 

-Um, no, Dr Destroyer and Takofanes *don't* have any motives that would make them not want to simply take the world by force. Thats there whole *goal*.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Schmucks?

 

Are 350 point characters "Chumps"?

 

Depends entirely on what kind of opposition they face. It's not even a constant either; if the GM switches up the opposition the characters can be dominating in some scenarios and woefully out of their league in others.

 

If the GM uses a lot of goons and the occasional "Lt" as the primary opposition, then assuming the "goons" are lower pointed than the heroes and the "Lt" is limited to sufficient power to resist (but not dominate) 2 or maybe 3 heroes at a time for a short duration then no, the PC's at 350 are capable compared to their primary opposition.

 

If the GM runs supervillain teams that are at least as good as the PCs and the occasional heavy hitter that is decidedly better than the PC's, then they will range from adequate to "chumpy", depending on the exact mix of opponents.

 

However this state of affairs has nothing to do with the number of points the characters have -- the same idea holds true at 150, 500, 1000, and beyond. The points are only meaninful when taken in context as a basis of comparison.

 

Strongly agreed.

 

Incidently, if it helps, as soon as the New Circle are done I'll post the 750 point versions. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...