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Re: Schmucks?

 

Yes' date=' but common Hand held ordanance (guns) should not be a problem for most supers, however most will be KO'd by a lucky roll (2d6 RKA=60 stun on max roll), this is not including: AP, AF, Pen, etc...[/quote']

 

There are a couple of different factors operating here.

 

1) Many, if not most, supers in the source material aren't "bulletproof". Theoretically, if they get hit, they have a problem.

 

2) Of course, in Champions, we tend to use things like Combat Luck and similar fudges to get around this.

 

3) I don't use the Stun lottery. It doesn't particularly reflect the genre, and is an odd mechanism that works a little differently from the rest of the game system. Your Mileage May Vary.

 

On a different note, people have described 350 point characters as being like the Teen Titans. That is, as being like Robin, Kid Flash and Wonder Girl. I'm not quite sure what their point is.

 

I will also reiterate that the JLA members themselves largely began at the same power level. Check the source material.

 

Ditto for the Avengers.

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Re: Schmucks?

 

4) The problem is: How the heck is the world still in one piece when all these hugely powerful beings want to destroy it, and no one in the existing universe is strong enough to oppose them?

 

I think that is what Champsguy is pointing out.

The idea of Teams of Heroes is fine, but if you think about it, something like the Battle of Detroit could be going on every week or so.

If there were beings like Mechanon and Dr. Destroyer, etc. would they really be waiting around for your character to gain enough experience to take them on someday?

When there is currently no one powerful enough to oppose them?

 

I guess I don't relate here because as far as I can tell there are only a dozen "regular," and by regular I mean those who operate on the earth, villains in the CU which a team of 350 to 400 point heroes can't defeat (Dr. Destroyer, Gravitar, Menton, Takofane, and the villain groups Eurostar and Dragon Branch - who can be defeated in smaller groups). Then there is a second tier of 50/50 villains who can be defeated by a group 50% of the time (Mechanon, Warlord, etc.). But that still leaves some 90% of the villains who are defeatable in groups or as individuals.

 

These Master Villains aren't making trouble every day. Dr. Destroyer went from his Destruga plan in 1991 to his Detroit plan in 1992, and then was unheard of for a decade. I would imagine that most other Master Villains are operating the same way. Takofane might make 1-2 appearances, Menton might make 1-2 appearances a year, etc. Not every Master Villain is out to conquer the world every day of the week. These Master Villains are not waiting for the characters to gain experience, they're waiting for their master plans to come to fruition.

 

Now we can look at the Battle Of Detroit as an example of how different power-level characters performed. Some characters confronted Dr. Destroyer, some battled supervillains, some battled Mega-Terak, and some battled asteroids. You don't send your 350 point characters into Dr. Destroyer's lab. You allow them to fight other thing and make meaningful contributions to such a major battle without over-shadowing them with a Master Villain. Perhaps the PCs get to the lab as a damaged Dr. Destroyer just defeats the last hero and now the PCs must stop him. Too bad Dr. Destroyer's main attack multipower is offline, and his armor has an activation roll from the damage the other heroes caused, and he has no force fields and is nearly exhausted. That's where the PCs can shine: doing the coup-de-gras!

 

Master Villains are not out every week banging against the heroes. They are planning, and plotting, and scheming, and using underlings to do most of the work. Most of the Master Villains saw what happened at the Battle of Detroit and most of them understand that they can't defeat a dozen superhero teams at one time if they come out prematurely into the open.

 

Granted Champions is a game, and ultimately the PCs are supposed to become experienced enough to fight the Master Villains of the world but that doesn't mean the world gets over-run or destroyed because the PCs are only 350-400 points. As the Edomite example in DEMON shows the PCs throwing a "wrench" at the wrong time can cause major problems for any Master Villain no matter what the power disparity.

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Re: Schmucks?

 

I guess I don't relate here because as far as I can tell there are only a dozen "regular," and by regular I mean those who operate on the earth, villains in the CU which a team of 350 to 400 point heroes can't defeat (Dr. Destroyer, Gravitar, Menton, Takofane, and the villain groups Eurostar and Dragon Branch - who can be defeated in smaller groups). Then there is a second tier of 50/50 villains who can be defeated by a group 50% of the time (Mechanon, Warlord, etc.). But that still leaves some 90% of the villains who are defeatable in groups or as individuals.

 

These Master Villains aren't making trouble every day. Dr. Destroyer went from his Destruga plan in 1991 to his Detroit plan in 1992, and then was unheard of for a decade. I would imagine that most other Master Villains are operating the same way. Takofane might make 1-2 appearances, Menton might make 1-2 appearances a year, etc. Not every Master Villain is out to conquer the world every day of the week. These Master Villains are not waiting for the characters to gain experience, they're waiting for their master plans to come to fruition.

-snip, for brevity, not content-

 

Okay, not to be combative, but, let's do some math with these perfectly reasonable figures.

12 Master Villains - Assuming that they are nice enough to strike only Once or Twice a Year, and space things out so the Superheroes have some time to rest up, this adds up to 2 Major Huge Attacks on the Earth per Month. Now I think that the massive gathering of heroes available could certainly handle this, but if you imagine even 1 hero being seriously injured/killed, every other attack, attrition is going to eventually have an effect. You won't have the full team after the first month or so. You will always be a few characters down.

 

12 "50/50" Villains (just a guess, but I figure there are as many of these as the Master Villains) - Assuming the same frequency as above, twice per year, adding up to a total of twice per Month, that they try to do something really nasty. Assuming that, knowing their place, they don't plan things on the same weeks as the Master Villains, we are now up to having something fairly major every week.

 

Add in all the lesser villains you mentioned, and little time for the heroes to heal up, and the bad guys should have already won.

 

Try it yourself, if you have the time and inclination.

Take the Champions. Put them up against a fully armed, fully staffed, Dr. Destroyer. With the robots and all the other stuff he is supposed to have.

Keep track of BODY lost, Foci destroyed, etc.

Now, one game week later, have them go up against Mechanon.

Now, one game week later, have them go up against Gravitar.

One week later Warlord.

Throw in daily doses of lesser villains that also have to be stopped.

 

Keep repeating.

 

See how long they last?

 

They may not actually "die", but they eventually will be unable to stop one of the "Master Plans" and there goes the ballgame.

 

All I am saying is that the CU needs to have a team of Superheroic Big Guns to take the strain of this off the everyday Supers.

Or there should be some other built in plot device to explain why Superheroes who are so constantly overmatched manage to keep winning.

I know it works that way in comics, but comics do not have offical point values assigned to things that are measurable.

 

You can say that Captain America manages to distract Galactus long enough for Reed Richards to show up with the Ultimate Discombobulator.

 

You cannot say that Captain America can beat Galactus at Arm Wrestling.

 

KA.

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Re: Schmucks?

 

Okay, not to be combative, but, let's do some math with these perfectly reasonable figures.

12 Master Villains - Assuming that they are nice enough to strike only Once or Twice a Year,

 

They act less often than that.

 

as the post quoted noted, DD waited ten years between plans at one point.

 

This is because plans take time, and Heroes Get Experience. Remember, what does not kill them, makes them stronger. :D

 

I mean... imagine the XP 'booster' they'd get from all these encounters.

 

Oh, and 12 MaxiVillains in the world? Probably not ALL going to have to be dealt with by a given group. (As noted, massive hordes of heroes, but not all the heroes in the world).

 

And 350pters pop up quicker than MaxiVillains, so any time things go horrendously wrong... (some unlucky Reflection attacks, forex)

 

Which is why plan time is needed. :)

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Re: Schmucks?

 

Okay, not to be combative, but, let's do some math with these perfectly reasonable figures.

12 Master Villains - Assuming that they are nice enough to strike only Once or Twice a Year, and space things out so the Superheroes have some time to rest up, this adds up to 2 Major Huge Attacks on the Earth per Month. Now I think that the massive gathering of heroes available could certainly handle this, but if you imagine even 1 hero being seriously injured/killed, every other attack, attrition is going to eventually have an effect. You won't have the full team after the first month or so. You will always be a few characters down.

 

12 "50/50" Villains (just a guess, but I figure there are as many of these as the Master Villains) - Assuming the same frequency as above, twice per year, adding up to a total of twice per Month, that they try to do something really nasty. Assuming that, knowing their place, they don't plan things on the same weeks as the Master Villains, we are now up to having something fairly major every week.

 

Add in all the lesser villains you mentioned, and little time for the heroes to heal up, and the bad guys should have already won.

 

Try it yourself, if you have the time and inclination.

Take the Champions. Put them up against a fully armed, fully staffed, Dr. Destroyer. With the robots and all the other stuff he is supposed to have.

Keep track of BODY lost, Foci destroyed, etc.

Now, one game week later, have them go up against Mechanon.

Now, one game week later, have them go up against Gravitar.

One week later Warlord.

Throw in daily doses of lesser villains that also have to be stopped.

 

Keep repeating.

 

See how long they last?

 

They may not actually "die", but they eventually will be unable to stop one of the "Master Plans" and there goes the ballgame.

 

All I am saying is that the CU needs to have a team of Superheroic Big Guns to take the strain of this off the everyday Supers.

Or there should be some other built in plot device to explain why Superheroes who are so constantly overmatched manage to keep winning.

I know it works that way in comics, but comics do not have offical point values assigned to things that are measurable.

 

You can say that Captain America manages to distract Galactus long enough for Reed Richards to show up with the Ultimate Discombobulator.

 

You cannot say that Captain America can beat Galactus at Arm Wrestling.

 

KA.

Perhaps you didn't read the part where I said you don't take 350 point characters up against Dr. Destroyer? You let them fight the agents, robots, or a weakened Dr. Destroyer. Also keep in mind that the Dr. Destroyer example everyone is the maxi example. He is Thanos-like and in the 5E CU has not done much of anything in 2 years. :)

 

Also remember that here are a dozen other superhero teams in the CU. Some of them are keeping other villains busy. It's not up to the PCs to stop every appearance of Takofane. In fact, most of the time a Takofane appearance should be something the players read about: Takofane appears in Denver and kills 30 miners in the Bella-Rella Gold Mine. This gives the PCs something to build on and gets a Master Villain appearance out of the way.

 

I do agree that there should be more superhero write ups, and Darren Watts has said they might do a superhero book in 2006, but that doesn't mean the CU is under siege by villains because each GM controls what each Master Villain is doing. Maybe Takofane must now wait until Oct. 31, 2007, when Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn are all aligned before enacting his plan. Perhaps Menton is having a secret war with the Nibu Gemani in the astral plane and wont' be back for 11 months. Mechanon might be engulfed in a "Mecha War" against one of his bodies who activated and went renegade. Each GM decides these things for himself. CKC tells you the villains are available. The GM decides when and how to use them.

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Re: Schmucks?

 

350 pt characters are about the level of the Teen Titans -- relative to the real world standards reflected in The Ultimate Vehicle and the material strength chart in 5th Edition (although I've been told that there are optional rules in Galactic Champions dealing with that second one).

 

The M2 Bradley (TUV pg 50) -- which as I understand it is not considered a tank by modern military standards -- carries 4 charges of a 5d6 RKA AP EP, 14 DEF and 20 BODY. Ironclad, the Champions brick (Champ pg 184) has a limited chance of being able to hurt one of these unless he makes his Find Weakness roll (which he'll have to make for each tank) or goes for a Haymaker (with which he'll average 2 BODY damage each blow). By comparison a single shot from the M2's missile will average 4-5 BODY and 31 STUN to Ironclad. Of course it's an explosion and therefore not much use if he's in melee range...

 

 

No, no, Ironclad. Don't punch the tank. Pick up the turret and cast it aside, or flip it onto its side.

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Re: Schmucks?

 

Are 350 point characters "Chumps"?

 

Depends entirely on what kind of opposition they face.

 

No, it depends on how they face their opposition, whatever the points spent on them. The game, after all, is based on the HERO system.

 

They may not be equal to the challenge, but that does not make them 'foolish or contemptible persons', which is what schmucks/chumps means.

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Re: Schmucks?

 

A few random points ...

 

1. The Champions probably couldn't knock out Destroyer, no. They can, however, defeat him. The two are not necessarily identical. This fits the comic book mold; a good Master Villain is frequently thwarted, but almost never captured. Every villain, especially ones that operate at the level of Destroyer, Mechanon, or the others, has a fatal flaw of some sort, usually in their personality. Destroyer's ego requires him to make a broad, sweeping, grandiose demonstration of his power, for example, and to announce his plan at some point to demonstrate his superiority. His ego doesn't LET him be subtle or direct.

 

2. Assuming a dozen Master Villains, every so often, they're going to run into each other, and have a 'You can't conquer the world, I'm conquering the world' spat. I don't know about you, but I don't want to imagine the property damage Destroyer vs Takofanes would generate. This eats up a lot of potential resources.

 

3. Even ignoring relative power level, teamwork counts for a LOT. A well-organized, well-prepared, and tactically solid team can *far* outstrip their 'point totals' in a battle. As I've said before, I've sicced 250 point villains on an equal number of 350 point heroes, and won easily, because they were designed as, and operated as, a team.

 

4. Even if you consider 350 points to be a 'low-powered heroes', the considerations of playing a game make low-powered heroes simply easier to play; the numbers are lower. Think about how long it takes some people to count up a 12d6 damage attack. Now, imagine these people having to add up a 40d6 attack.

 

5. Having your PCs at least experience trepidation about the police/military is a good way to keep the power from going to their head. Your other option is to break out the 'bigger, meaner heroes than you' for enforcers.

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Re: Schmucks?

 

...anyway ayou needn't worry about the UberVillains' date=' they have given up the sort of crime that involves hitting heroes, and have bought controlling stakes in Coca Cola, and the company that counts the votes in elections.[/quote']

I think it's Nar-Cola in the CU. :)

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Re: Schmucks?

 

Thread derail: Can someone explain that name to me? Is it just a name they grabbed out of the air' date=' or is it an actual reference to something?[/quote']

I don't know myself. I just assumed it was a play on words: Narcotic-Cola just as "Coca" refers to the coca plant which was an original ingredient in Coca Cola.

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Re: Schmucks?

 

Part of the reason that the heroes of the CU are so underdeveloped is because we' date=' the people who play Champions, are suppossed to be providing them. If you think the CU needs a team of 700pt powerhouses to stop the mega-villains, then round a group of players and create them. It's that easy.[/quote']Well said. :thumbup:

 

I don't think it behooves anyone to criticize the point level another group is playing at. Whatever point level you enjoy playing is the right point level to play at. Our campaign started in 1992 with 250 point PCS, upped them to 350 with the release of FREd, and now has several PCs at the 400 point mark. We've had fun in all those ranges; we didn't pass some magic line where we suddenly did/didn't have fun.

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Re: Schmucks?

 

Something that I always think of, but no one ever seems to mention: 350 pointers don't HAVE to all be as weedy as the published Champions. You can have a wide, wide, wide range of offensive, defensive and tactical potential within a given point value. I've played (recently, even) in a Champions game where my 350-pt character was capable of slinging 21d6 EB's, before Pushing and Haymakering. Technically, he was at about 370 from xp, but still.

 

It makes a lot more sense to compare Active Point/Damage Class caps (if any), than raw point totals. Even if you impose such limits (which obviously wasn't the case in my example above), any efficiently-built PC team can easily outperform any published 350-pt. group. Again, this is a design feature, to keep the NPC's from overshadowing the PC's. UNITY is probably the best example of this philosophy.

 

Going back to 'in-game-world' propositions, consider this: Mega-villains don't like each other any more than heroes like them. If you need a rationale for why any given villain hasn't taken over, and you're not satisfied by "heroic numbers, heroic teamwork, possible powerful PC's and currently undefined NPC heroes", assume that Dr. D is monitoring Eurostar, Gravitar, the Warlord, et al, and quietly works behind the scenes to foil their plans. He simply doesn't care if the Champions get all the credit. In fact, so much the better... It'll give them a false sense of hope when he springs his latest Master Plan for World Conquest !

 

(plan initiated)

 

Hey! Who'da thunk Teleios would stab him in the back? That tailored hyper-flu virus really did a number on him just as the Champions invaded his lair...

 

(plan fails)

 

I don't know myself. I just assumed it was a play on words: Narcotic-Cola just as "Coca" refers to the coca plant which was an original ingredient in Coca Cola.

 

That was my assumption, as well.

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Re: Schmucks?

 

Something that I always think of' date=' but no one ever seems to mention: 350 pointers don't HAVE to all be as weedy as the published Champions. You can have a wide, wide, wide range of offensive, defensive and tactical potential within a given point value. I've played (recently, even) in a Champions game where my 350-pt character was capable of slinging 21d6 EB's, [b']before[/b] Pushing and Haymakering. Technically, he was at about 370 from xp, but still.

 

It makes a lot more sense to compare Active Point/Damage Class caps (if any), than raw point totals. Even if you impose such limits (which obviously wasn't the case in my example above), any efficiently-built PC team can easily outperform any published 350-pt. group. Again, this is a design feature, to keep the NPC's from overshadowing the PC's. UNITY is probably the best example of this philosophy.

 

I've mentioned this numerous times myself. There's no reason you can't come up with 350 point characters who can throw and take 24d6 attacks (and far more), smash worlds, destroy stars, or engage in most kinds of Cosmic Level Comic Book mayhem. The GM just has to be willing to OK the design. To refuse to OK a legal design and then declare that such and such a character is impossible at such and such a point level is just silly. ;)

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Re: Schmucks?

 

. . .or a sign of sanity.

 

If the campaign needs more powerful heroes, PC or NPC ( and any campaign resembling the default Champions setting does ), then why is it some horrible hideous offense to just *give the characters more points*??

 

It's not, particularly. 700 points can offer many things that 350 can't, especially if you don't feel like fiddling with the design. However, it's incorrect from a pure mechanics point of view to claim that you can't duplicate the surface look and feel of many high powered characters on a 350 point budget.

 

Of course the GM must first overcome his or her fear of efficient character design. ;)

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Re: Schmucks?

 

It's not, particularly. 700 points can offer many things that 350 can't, especially if you don't feel like fiddling with the design. However, it's incorrect from a pure mechanics point of view to claim that you can't duplicate the surface look and feel of many high powered characters on a 350 point budget.

 

Of course the GM must first overcome his or her fear of efficient character design. ;)

 

Whilst I agree in principle I would be interested to see what you consider 'efficient' character design...for example in a charcter, built on 350 points, that can take AND dish out 21/4d6 attacks. Maybe Haerandir would like to come in on this one....?

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Guest WhammeWhamme

Re: Schmucks?

 

. . .or a sign of sanity.

 

If the campaign needs more powerful heroes, PC or NPC ( and any campaign resembling the default Champions setting does ), then why is it some horrible hideous offense to just *give the characters more points*??

 

It isn't. Now will you accept the OTHER way you can do things as valid?

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Re: Schmucks?

 

Whilst I agree in principle I would be interested to see what you consider 'efficient' character design...for example in a charcter' date=' built on 350 points, that can take AND dish out 21/4d6 attacks. Maybe Haerandir would like to come in on this one....?[/quote']

 

I've posted a few of them. One I would not permit in most of the games I GM, because (a) I dislike charaters that have to charge up and (B) I don't run 350 point Galactic Level games. Here is Solarian

"Cheesy" is in the eye of the beholder, and he could be made more powerful; this was just an attempt to match the observed performance of Apollo from the Authority.

 

Here is one I might let someone play, posted as a tribute and a joke: Thumper God

 

Note that at the moment he's limited to 18d6 attacks (16d6 HA+2d6 from MA), but that's an intentional design decision. It would take only the smallest changes to get him up to 24d6 attacks and a high enough PD and Con to take them in return.

 

On average he will currently take 86-26=60/2=30 stun from a 24d6 attack, or just enough to stun him but not put him out. Somethng as simple as dropping his BOD to 15 and raising his CON to 33 would allow him to take that shot without being stunned.

 

Note that I am presenting these as exmples of what can be done; I make no claims as to what should be done.

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Re: Schmucks?

 

It's not, particularly. 700 points can offer many things that 350 can't, especially if you don't feel like fiddling with the design. However, it's incorrect from a pure mechanics point of view to claim that you can't duplicate the surface look and feel of many high powered characters on a 350 point budget.

 

Of course the GM must first overcome his or her fear of efficient character design. ;)

 

Me, I'd prefer that any character I use not merely "look and feel" powerful, but actually *be* powerful. :rolleyes:

 

Edit: *WITHOUT* mercilessly exploiting disadvantages

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Re: Schmucks?

 

I've posted a few of them. One I would not permit in most of the games I GM' date=' because (a) I dislike charaters that have to charge up and (B) I don't run 350 point Galactic Level games. Here is Solarian

"Cheesy" is in the eye of the beholder, and he could be made more powerful; this was just an attempt to match the observed performance of Apollo from the Authority.

 

Here is one I might let someone play, posted as a tribute and a joke: Thumper God

 

Note that at the moment he's limited to 18d6 attacks (16d6 HA+2d6 from MA), but that's an intentional design decision. It would take only the smallest changes to get him up to 24d6 attacks and a high enough PD and Con to take them in return.

 

On average he will currently take 86-26=60/2=30 stun from a 24d6 attack, or just enough to stun him but not put him out. Somethng as simple as dropping his BOD to 15 and raising his CON to 33 would allow him to take that shot without being stunned.

 

Note that I am presenting these as exmples of what can be done; I make no claims as to what should be done.

 

 

A couple of problems with Solarian. Only Body powers can take Only Costs End to Activate. So the FF and Enhanced Senses in the EC are quasi-illegal. And Aid is an Adjustment power, so it's effect on defenses are halved. Also, Aiding a primary characteristic does not increase any of the figured characteristics based upon it.

 

Aid is also an attack action, so the character would have to spend 18 turns on average doing nothing but this to get maximum effect.

 

Still, he's a nice character who would be very playable if you got rid of the Aid multipower, the only truly abusive part about him.

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