Intelligent Question?

[Hyper-Man]

I hope....

 

Are Bricks defenses too high in comparison to their ability to inflict damage?

 

One of the most common type of character writeups on the boards are Bricks. Many have submitted Superman or Superman-esq characters. One thing that seems to always be a little out of balance on these characters IMO is that their defenses are far higher than their attacks.

 

Before everyone goes nuts saying that would make bricks too powerfull let me explain. Usually, iregardless of the origin of powers, two bricks of similar power level in the comics are usually protrayed as having the same ability to injure one another as two normals. That should equate to a haymaker that lands having the ability to at least Stun if not outright Knockout the opponent as well as ocasionally delivering a point or two of body damage in the process. This is very rarely the case. The best example of what I am talking about is the many fights between Superman and the Kryptonian villains in Superman II but Thor vs. Hercules, Captain Marvel vs. Black Adam, Martian Manhunter vs. Grey Martians etc... . In most of these fights if one character ever gets even the slightest advantage (in either power or fighting skill) he can usually end the fight easily with a 'knock-out' blow of some sort.

 

I know that this may be a pipe dream since the whole point of the HERO system rules is to allow for combats that take some time for dramatic purposes but I figured it is as worthy a topic as any to discuss.

[jackalope]

Re: Intelligent Question?

 

Before everyone goes nuts saying that would make bricks too powerfull let me explain. Usually' date=' iregardless of the origin of powers, two bricks of similar power level in the comics are usually protrayed as having the same ability to injure one another as two normals. That should equate to a haymaker that lands having the ability to at least Stun if not outright Knockout the opponent as well as ocasionally delivering a point or two of body damage in the process.[/quote']

 

That was the stoopidest question EVAR!!!!

 

Oh, wait, no it wasn't. Good question actually, and good point (quoted).

 

I do think most of the bricks I see on these boards, and most of the published bricks, are a bit too hard to hurt. I think the defense of all the published characters are too high for the AP limits given on attack powers.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Intelligent Question?

 

I generally think defenses should be proportional and appropriate to the archetype. Martial artists and speedsters should take one or two campaign-average hits to Stun or KO; EBs and demi-bricks two or three hits, and bricks three or more. Again, since in many if not most campaigns bricks deal out the most damage (and are thus generally dishing out well over campaign average) that probably equates to two roughly equal bricks affecting each other much like two ordinary joes duking it out. Our team's brick Silhouette hits for 50% more damage (15d6 vs. 10d6) than my MA Zl'f, and can ignore totally attacks that would Stun Zl'f (9d6).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Intelligent Question?

 

Well, let's say an average full-on Brick in a 350 supers campaign has a 70 STR. That would give him an 18d6 Haymaker.

 

In order for him to take a couple points of BODY damage from an 18d6 attack, he would need to have a 16 PD. An 18d6 Haymaker would average 63 STUN as well, so he'd take 47 STUN. Assuming an average Brick CON in the 28-38 range, that would be plenty enough to Stun him.

 

But at this point, how do you scale other superhero archetypes appropriately? If a full superpowered Brick only has a PD of 16, what does a Martial Artist or Speedster have? 8 or 9? In that range, they'd never survive superpowered combat.

[Rapier]

Re: Intelligent Question?

 

Actually, this just occured to me. In my head, the brick is always the heavy hitter. The guy that dishes out the most damage. However, I don't think that is always the case. Oh sure, we've had a couple of REALLY heavy bricks that crush battleships with their teeth, but for the most part bricks do about the same amount of damage as the average Energy Projector.

 

I think part of this might be left over to when we had AP limits. Over time the bricks have gotten stronger and the Energy Projectors have become more versatile, and the MAs have gotten more levels but lower damage.

 

On the flip side, the bricks almost across the board have MUCH higher DEF than everyone else. How odd.

 

Curious. You never know what is going to trigger one of these odd thoughts, do ya?

[Zed-F]

Re: Intelligent Question?

 

Bricks tend to have higher DEF because they tend to be slower, and thus need to be able to take hits better to ensure they can actually take the relatively few actions they get and not be stunned all the time.

[Gary]

Re: Intelligent Question?

 

It's not just defenses. A typical brick would be harder to knock out than other archetypes even if everything else is equal, simply because the brick has gobs of extra Rec and Stun compared to everyone else.

[zornwil]

Re: Intelligent Question?

 

Archetype police have arrived!

 

Let's be clear here...(for Champions)

 

STR 40+ - as high as the "campaign standards" allow (that's important - that means it's up to the GM...the STR should be capped at the DC cap on Attack Powers)

 

If we look at the Generator (pages 81+) we see the ranges as:

 

Possible Base Chars:

STR +8

DEX +10/+13

CON +8/+10

BOD +3/+5

...

PD +5/+8

ED +5/+6

SPD +2.7/+2

REC +4/+1

STUN 0/+6

 

Possible Primary Powers:

 

Adds usually +60 STR (except Projector who has +40 STR with no END)

Hardened Defenses run 7-24 PD, 7-24 ED

Some KB resistance typically, 2"-lots if Density Increase

 

Possible Secondary may add +5-9 PD/ED (unlikely to be higher end if already has decent PD/ED from Dam Res as that may be redundant), movement from 10"-20" depending

 

Likely skill level adds run in the +6 HTH or Ranged at the high end, but more likely it's a significantly smaller number.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Intelligent Question?

 

Actually' date=' this just occured to me. In my head, the brick is always the heavy hitter. The guy that dishes out the most damage. However, I don't think that is always the case. Oh sure, we've had a couple of REALLY heavy bricks that crush battleships with their teeth, but for the most part bricks do about the same amount of damage as the average Energy Projector.[/quote']You're 100% correct about EBs often having brick-level attacks (and occasionally even defenses). Blackjack, the gentleman who plays our brick Silhouette, firmly believes that it is at least as important for a brick to be a damage sponge as it is for her to be able to dish out big dice. In other words, the high STUN and CON are as much of being a brick as the bulging muscles and high defenses. The brick should generally be the last character standing in a given fight.

 

Based on his excellent play of Silhouette, I'm not about to dispute that point.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Intelligent Question?

 

good stuff from everyone!

 

I picked bricks as an example because I thought they would be easier to use to illustrate my main point but it could apply to almost any type of character.

 

What if my brick was copied or cloned and ended up having to fight his virtual twin. Again, I am going back to the Superman example because virtually every possible example of this sort of thing has happened to him. In Superman II he shakes his hand after hitting Zod on the jaw because it hurt his hand just like if any of us were to punch one another in the jaw. Is that level of realism (a crazy thing to shoot for in a Champions game, I know...) possible to fit into an otherwise relatively standard champions game?

[Hyper-Man]

8 1/2 year bump

[Lucius]

8 1/2 year bump

 

What are you trying to do, set a record?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

A palindromedary has a bump. A backandforthtrian has two bumps.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Intelligent Question? good stuff from everyone! I picked bricks as an example because I thought they would be easier to use to illustrate my main point but it could apply to almost any type of character. What if my brick was copied or cloned and ended up having to fight his virtual twin. Again' date=' I am going back to the Superman example because virtually every possible example of this sort of thing has happened to him. In Superman II he shakes his hand after hitting Zod on the jaw because it hurt his hand just like if any of us were to punch one another in the jaw. Is that level of realism (a crazy thing to shoot for in a Champions game, I know...) possible to fit into an otherwise relatively standard champions game?[/quote'] But two normals slugging it out in Hero isn't "realistic" so why would two bricks be?

[Hyper-Man]

I'm sure the odds of rolling 3 Body on 2 normal dice is different than the real life odds of serious injury occurring when 2 people get into a serious fight. But it sure seems close enough. Even professional athletes get the occasional broken bones in various combat and non-combat competition.

[TheRealDeal]

Perhaps just build the Brick attacks to simulate this? So make their Punch have Armor Piercing or Penetrating. Or a Linked Drain vs. PD to show their last blow made the target rather tender in that area and it will take time for them to recover (Drain fade rate).

[Hyper-Man]

Perhaps just build the Brick attacks to simulate this? So make their Punch have Armor Piercing or Penetrating. Or a Linked Drain vs. PD to show their last blow made the target rather tender in that area and it will take time for them to recover (Drain fade rate).

 

Yours is just one of many specific ways to do this. This thread was one of the first ones I posted to the forums when I joined many years ago and I just recently rediscovered it. I bumped it because Man of Steel opens this week and racial abilities like those of Kryptonians have often been modeled heavier on defense than offense in HERO. I think my starting version of Clark shows both the potential to be near indestructable sometimes and still have the potential to suffer minor injury when unprepared.

[Xavier Onassiss]

I find it odd that DCV hasn't been mentioned (unless I completely missed something!) in this discussion. The point is: Bricks tend to have lower DCV than other archetypes, especially Martial Artists and Speedsters. Bricks have lots of defenses because their DCV tends to be, shall we say, their "dump stat" and they fully expect to get hit. A lot. They need to be able to take all that punishment if they're in any way worthy of being called "Bricks."

[Hyper-Man]

Maybe a better question would be to ask how would a PC fair against their own twin (good/evil counterpart). If Bricks, could they actually even hurt each other? I don't have any 6e villain books but my memory of the 5e ones make me think that most would just be knocking each other around a LOT with little to no chance of any serious injury (BODY damage).

[psyber624]

If we go by the general guidelines that I have seen in these forums quite frequently two bricks slugging it out would definitely be able to KO each other. Published materials may differ somewhat but it is hard to determine because they don't seem to subscribe to any specific "basis" or powerlevel but bounce around quite a bit (not a complaint, just a comment. A GM can always adjust a published character to be appropriate to his/her campaign).

 

But for an example lets take a look at the Brick from the Champions: Ironclad. For reference here are his stats (from CC).

 

STR 60, DEX 18, CON 30, OCV 7, DCV 6, SPD 5, PD 25/23r, ED 25/23r, REC 20, END 60, BODY 15, STUN 60, 4 CSL's w/HTH

 

Attacks:

Normal: 12d6 HTH(STR Punch)

Sword: 4d6 HKA (after STR)

 

Note that I only included the combat specific stats here.

 

Against himself he does a respectable average of 17 stun with a normal punch, 24 if he puts all his CSL's into damage. He has 5 phases a turn and would likely land about half the blows he threw (depending of course on what his clone did) so he would average SOMEWHERE around 40-50 STUN Damage a turn. He recovers 20 of that, but only has 60 STUN so it would probably take around 2-3 turns for one of the combatants to get laid out. His HKA would be a complete waste of time however because his Resistant Defenses are so high, but he is still capable of being knocked out, although stunned is rather unlikely (a Haymaker is far to unlikely to land against himself in a 1 on 1 fight and so would be a VERY bad tactical choice).

 

Of course one thing to note is that this is one of the VERY few published Heroes out there. There are TONS of villains, but in most cases villains are designed to go up against a TEAM of heroes and so likely need higher defenses to keep them in a fight longer. If the team can take out Grond or the like in one hit then there isn't much of a challenge there.

 

As far as the general guidelines I have seen around here Bricks are usually not any more damaging than any other archetype (esp if there are power level caps) 14d6 EB's are about as common and 70 STR bricks. The difference is that Bricks rely on being able to take hits (and don't worry much about DCV therefore) while Energy Projectors rely on DCV + Range Mod and Speedsters/MA rely on DCV + Aborting to stay standing in a fight. The only MAJOR difference I have seen is that bricks tend to be very hard to do BODY damage to compared to the others, but again that is likely because they will be getting hit by KA's alot more often than other archetypes and so any BODY they did take could quickly become a problem.

 

[Trebuchet]

If we go by the general guidelines that I have seen in these forums quite frequently two bricks slugging it out would definitely be able to KO each other. Published materials may differ somewhat but it is hard to determine because they don't seem to subscribe to any specific "basis" or powerlevel but bounce around quite a bit (not a complaint, just a comment. A GM can always adjust a published character to be appropriate to his/her campaign).

 

But for an example lets take a look at the Brick from the Champions: Ironclad. For reference here are his stats (from CC).

 

STR 60, DEX 18, CON 30, OCV 7, DCV 6, SPD 5, PD 25/23r, ED 25/23r, REC 20, END 60, BODY 15, STUN 60, 4 CSL's w/HTH

 

Attacks:

Normal: 12d6 HTH(STR Punch)

Sword: 4d6 HKA (after STR)

 

Note that I only included the combat specific stats here.

 

Against himself he does a respectable average of 17 stun with a normal punch, 24 if he puts all his CSL's into damage. He has 5 phases a turn and would likely land about half the blows he threw (depending of course on what his clone did) so he would average SOMEWHERE around 40-50 STUN Damage a turn. He recovers 20 of that, but only has 60 STUN so it would probably take around 2-3 turns for one of the combatants to get laid out. His HKA would be a complete waste of time however because his Resistant Defenses are so high, but he is still capable of being knocked out, although stunned is rather unlikely (a Haymaker is far to unlikely to land against himself in a 1 on 1 fight and so would be a VERY bad tactical choice).

 

I would only observe that IME Ironclad is also a fairly puny brick defense-wise - almost what we'd call a "demi-brick. In the 30 years I've been playing Champions I've seen plenty of MAs with PD and ED in the 23 range. We didn't usually consider someone a "true" brick until both his PD/ED and CON were in the upper end of the 20s or low 30's and/or he slapped on some Damage Reduction. His STUN is good, as is his REC, but he definitely suffers from low defenses.

 

Of course one thing to note is that this is one of the VERY few published Heroes out there. There are TONS of villains, but in most cases villains are designed to go up against a TEAM of heroes and so likely need higher defenses to keep them in a fight longer. If the team can take out Grond or the like in one hit then there isn't much of a challenge there.

 

As far as the general guidelines I have seen around here Bricks are usually not any more damaging than any other archetype (esp if there are power level caps) 14d6 EB's are about as common and 70 STR bricks. The difference is that Bricks rely on being able to take hits (and don't worry much about DCV therefore) while Energy Projectors rely on DCV + Range Mod and Speedsters/MA rely on DCV + Aborting to stay standing in a fight. The only MAJOR difference I have seen is that bricks tend to be very hard to do BODY damage to compared to the others, but again that is likely because they will be getting hit by KA's a lot more often than other archetypes and so any BODY they did take could quickly become a problem.

 

On this I agree 100%. While in our campaign our brick comfortably rules the roost damage-wise with 17d6 (85 STR), her defenses against ED attacks is actually slightly lower (31/28r) than our primary Energy Projector, and the EB is our second most powerful on the attack. But the EB falls vastly short in the CON and STUN departments.

 

Your observation of the result of damage caps mirrors our experience precisely. When we started our MidGuard campaign in 1992 we imposed caps (12 DC) and every single PC did 11 or 12 DC's. When we relaxed them with the release of 5E the damage range spread from 10 to 15 DC's. Currently it's from 9d6 (The 9d6 character can also apply AP or PEN advantages to the 9d6 by burning triple the usual END, so the effective low end is probably around 11DC.) to 17d6. Everybody seems happier with this spread.

 

[JasonPacker]

If we go by the general guidelines that I have seen in these forums quite frequently two bricks slugging it out would definitely be able to KO each other. Published materials may differ somewhat but it is hard to determine because they don't seem to subscribe to any specific "basis" or powerlevel but bounce around quite a bit (not a complaint, just a comment. A GM can always adjust a published character to be appropriate to his/her campaign).

 

But for an example lets take a look at the Brick from the Champions: Ironclad. For reference here are his stats (from CC).

 

STR 60, DEX 18, CON 30, OCV 7, DCV 6, SPD 5, PD 25/23r, ED 25/23r, REC 20, END 60, BODY 15, STUN 60, 4 CSL's w/HTH

 

Attacks:

Normal: 12d6 HTH(STR Punch)

Sword: 4d6 HKA (after STR)

 

Note that I only included the combat specific stats here.

 

Against himself he does a respectable average of 17 stun with a normal punch, 24 if he puts all his CSL's into damage. He has 5 phases a turn and would likely land about half the blows he threw (depending of course on what his clone did) so he would average SOMEWHERE around 40-50 STUN Damage a turn. He recovers 20 of that, but only has 60 STUN so it would probably take around 2-3 turns for one of the combatants to get laid out. His HKA would be a complete waste of time however because his Resistant Defenses are so high, but he is still capable of being knocked out, although stunned is rather unlikely (a Haymaker is far to unlikely to land against himself in a 1 on 1 fight and so would be a VERY bad tactical choice).

 

I would only observe that IME Ironclad is also a fairly puny brick defense-wise - almost what we'd call a "demi-brick. In the 30 years I've been playing Champions I've seen plenty of MAs with PD and ED in the 23 range. We didn't usually consider someone a "true" brick until both his PD/ED and CON were in the upper end of the 20s or low 30's and/or he slapped on some Damage Reduction. His STUN is good, as is his REC, but he definitely suffers from low defenses.

 

Of course one thing to note is that this is one of the VERY few published Heroes out there. There are TONS of villains, but in most cases villains are designed to go up against a TEAM of heroes and so likely need higher defenses to keep them in a fight longer. If the team can take out Grond or the like in one hit then there isn't much of a challenge there.

 

As far as the general guidelines I have seen around here Bricks are usually not any more damaging than any other archetype (esp if there are power level caps) 14d6 EB's are about as common and 70 STR bricks. The difference is that Bricks rely on being able to take hits (and don't worry much about DCV therefore) while Energy Projectors rely on DCV + Range Mod and Speedsters/MA rely on DCV + Aborting to stay standing in a fight. The only MAJOR difference I have seen is that bricks tend to be very hard to do BODY damage to compared to the others, but again that is likely because they will be getting hit by KA's a lot more often than other archetypes and so any BODY they did take could quickly become a problem.

 

On this I agree 100%. While in our campaign our brick comfortably rules the roost damage-wise with 17d6 (85 STR), her defenses against ED attacks is actually slightly lower (31/28r) than our primary Energy Projector, and the EB is our second most powerful on the attack. But the EB falls vastly short in the CON and STUN departments.

 

Your observation of the result of damage caps mirrors our experience precisely. When we started our MidGuard campaign in 1992 we imposed caps (12 DC) and every single PC did 11 or 12 DC's. When we relaxed them with the release of 5E the damage range spread from 10 to 15 DC's. Currently it's from 9d6 (The 9d6 character can also apply AP or PEN advantages to the 9d6 by burning triple the usual END, so the effective low end is probably around 11DC.) to 17d6. Everybody seems happier with this spread.

This actually makes me very happy. I've always felt that setting those sorts of caps tended to impact the game in negative ways. I suspect it must help to have rational players who aren't out to break things to help make this happen.

 

Do you have a 'power band' that you advise, or do you just let the chips fall where they may?

[JasonPacker]

I often feel that there's an inherent need amongst many players to maximize defenses. A conscious or unconscious desire to play it safe, to put themselves in the character's shoes perhaps, or to identify with them, and to want them to have the best protection that points will buy. Especially in a situation where you have a feel for what the worst they might encounter is. If you know most enemies are going to have 12DC attacks, then 24 resistant defense is enough to ensure that normal (not AP) attacks can't ever do BODY damage - which is a nice place to be if you're trying to keep your character alive. Add in the defense-like nature of things like a high CON or STUN, and Bricks are probably the most prone to this sort of defense focus.

[psyber624]

If we go by the general guidelines that I have seen in these forums quite frequently two bricks slugging it out would definitely be able to KO each other. Published materials may differ somewhat but it is hard to determine because they don't seem to subscribe to any specific "basis" or powerlevel but bounce around quite a bit (not a complaint, just a comment. A GM can always adjust a published character to be appropriate to his/her campaign).

 

But for an example lets take a look at the Brick from the Champions: Ironclad. For reference here are his stats (from CC).

 

STR 60, DEX 18, CON 30, OCV 7, DCV 6, SPD 5, PD 25/23r, ED 25/23r, REC 20, END 60, BODY 15, STUN 60, 4 CSL's w/HTH

 

Attacks:

Normal: 12d6 HTH(STR Punch)

Sword: 4d6 HKA (after STR)

 

Note that I only included the combat specific stats here.

 

Against himself he does a respectable average of 17 stun with a normal punch, 24 if he puts all his CSL's into damage. He has 5 phases a turn and would likely land about half the blows he threw (depending of course on what his clone did) so he would average SOMEWHERE around 40-50 STUN Damage a turn. He recovers 20 of that, but only has 60 STUN so it would probably take around 2-3 turns for one of the combatants to get laid out. His HKA would be a complete waste of time however because his Resistant Defenses are so high, but he is still capable of being knocked out, although stunned is rather unlikely (a Haymaker is far to unlikely to land against himself in a 1 on 1 fight and so would be a VERY bad tactical choice).

 

I would only observe that IME Ironclad is also a fairly puny brick defense-wise - almost what we'd call a "demi-brick. In the 30 years I've been playing Champions I've seen plenty of MAs with PD and ED in the 23 range. We didn't usually consider someone a "true" brick until both his PD/ED and CON were in the upper end of the 20s or low 30's and/or he slapped on some Damage Reduction. His STUN is good, as is his REC, but he definitely suffers from low defenses.

 

Of course one thing to note is that this is one of the VERY few published Heroes out there. There are TONS of villains, but in most cases villains are designed to go up against a TEAM of heroes and so likely need higher defenses to keep them in a fight longer. If the team can take out Grond or the like in one hit then there isn't much of a challenge there.

 

As far as the general guidelines I have seen around here Bricks are usually not any more damaging than any other archetype (esp if there are power level caps) 14d6 EB's are about as common and 70 STR bricks. The difference is that Bricks rely on being able to take hits (and don't worry much about DCV therefore) while Energy Projectors rely on DCV + Range Mod and Speedsters/MA rely on DCV + Aborting to stay standing in a fight. The only MAJOR difference I have seen is that bricks tend to be very hard to do BODY damage to compared to the others, but again that is likely because they will be getting hit by KA's a lot more often than other archetypes and so any BODY they did take could quickly become a problem.

 

On this I agree 100%. While in our campaign our brick comfortably rules the roost damage-wise with 17d6 (85 STR), her defenses against ED attacks is actually slightly lower (31/28r) than our primary Energy Projector, and the EB is our second most powerful on the attack. But the EB falls vastly short in the CON and STUN departments.

 

Your observation of the result of damage caps mirrors our experience precisely. When we started our MidGuard campaign in 1992 we imposed caps (12 DC) and every single PC did 11 or 12 DC's. When we relaxed them with the release of 5E the damage range spread from 10 to 15 DC's. Currently it's from 9d6 (The 9d6 character can also apply AP or PEN advantages to the 9d6 by burning triple the usual END, so the effective low end is probably around 11DC.) to 17d6. Everybody seems happier with this spread.

The problem I have with that is that even without caps the range from non-effective to effective to super effective is actually quite narrow in the HERO System and the difference of a few dice can really shift things. For instance in a "standard" campaign (what I have seen from here so far) with 12d6 being the standard cap 9d6 attacks (without mitigating advantages like NND or AP) are barely able to affect most people. On the other hand 15d6 is almost a guaranteed Stunned result on anything that has a chance of being stunned at 12d6. Every die of damage adds 3.5 pts of damage to the average roll and because of the way defenses and stunning work in this system each additional die is more effective than the last meaning without a system in place which increases the cost of additional dice of damage the "effective" range of attacks is actually quite narrow.

 

In the comics this is quite common, but in a game system unless you are running almost diceless the effect is that some players are nearly useless in combat while others are overly effective. Rarely do gamers want to play the "Wasp" or the "Jubilee" type characters partnered with "Thor" or "Cyclops" types. Even if combat isn't the focus of a campaign combat takes FAR more time relative to other activities and can easily leave combat-ineffective characters bored or restless during the stretches of time in which it does happen. I am not saying it can't be done that way successfully, just that it is far more difficult to do.

[bigbywolfe]

If we go by the general guidelines that I have seen in these forums quite frequently two bricks slugging it out would definitely be able to KO each other. Published materials may differ somewhat but it is hard to determine because they don't seem to subscribe to any specific "basis" or powerlevel but bounce around quite a bit (not a complaint, just a comment. A GM can always adjust a published character to be appropriate to his/her campaign).

 

But for an example lets take a look at the Brick from the Champions: Ironclad. For reference here are his stats (from CC).

 

STR 60, DEX 18, CON 30, OCV 7, DCV 6, SPD 5, PD 25/23r, ED 25/23r, REC 20, END 60, BODY 15, STUN 60, 4 CSL's w/HTH

 

Attacks:

Normal: 12d6 HTH(STR Punch)

Sword: 4d6 HKA (after STR)

 

Note that I only included the combat specific stats here.

 

Against himself he does a respectable average of 17 stun with a normal punch, 24 if he puts all his CSL's into damage. He has 5 phases a turn and would likely land about half the blows he threw (depending of course on what his clone did) so he would average SOMEWHERE around 40-50 STUN Damage a turn. He recovers 20 of that, but only has 60 STUN so it would probably take around 2-3 turns for one of the combatants to get laid out. His HKA would be a complete waste of time however because his Resistant Defenses are so high, but he is still capable of being knocked out, although stunned is rather unlikely (a Haymaker is far to unlikely to land against himself in a 1 on 1 fight and so would be a VERY bad tactical choice).

 

I would only observe that IME Ironclad is also a fairly puny brick defense-wise - almost what we'd call a "demi-brick. In the 30 years I've been playing Champions I've seen plenty of MAs with PD and ED in the 23 range. We didn't usually consider someone a "true" brick until both his PD/ED and CON were in the upper end of the 20s or low 30's and/or he slapped on some Damage Reduction. His STUN is good, as is his REC, but he definitely suffers from low defenses.

 

Of course one thing to note is that this is one of the VERY few published Heroes out there. There are TONS of villains, but in most cases villains are designed to go up against a TEAM of heroes and so likely need higher defenses to keep them in a fight longer. If the team can take out Grond or the like in one hit then there isn't much of a challenge there.

 

As far as the general guidelines I have seen around here Bricks are usually not any more damaging than any other archetype (esp if there are power level caps) 14d6 EB's are about as common and 70 STR bricks. The difference is that Bricks rely on being able to take hits (and don't worry much about DCV therefore) while Energy Projectors rely on DCV + Range Mod and Speedsters/MA rely on DCV + Aborting to stay standing in a fight. The only MAJOR difference I have seen is that bricks tend to be very hard to do BODY damage to compared to the others, but again that is likely because they will be getting hit by KA's a lot more often than other archetypes and so any BODY they did take could quickly become a problem.

 

On this I agree 100%. While in our campaign our brick comfortably rules the roost damage-wise with 17d6 (85 STR), her defenses against ED attacks is actually slightly lower (31/28r) than our primary Energy Projector, and the EB is our second most powerful on the attack. But the EB falls vastly short in the CON and STUN departments.

 

Your observation of the result of damage caps mirrors our experience precisely. When we started our MidGuard campaign in 1992 we imposed caps (12 DC) and every single PC did 11 or 12 DC's. When we relaxed them with the release of 5E the damage range spread from 10 to 15 DC's. Currently it's from 9d6 (The 9d6 character can also apply AP or PEN advantages to the 9d6 by burning triple the usual END, so the effective low end is probably around 11DC.) to 17d6. Everybody seems happier with this spread.

And yet Trebuchet and others have had it work just fine psyber.

[Hyper-Man]

I don't want to spoil anything for anybody but the original topic of this thread is quite relevant to the new Man of Steel movie.