Jane's Superhumans

[Trebuchet]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

The biggest problem for tanks is that the main guns are designed to engage tank-sized vehicles at a distance of 200 meters or more' date=' not human size fast moving targets within 100 meters. Durak could defeat a tank platoon in a turn, just by flipping them all over. He could spend the next few minutes tearing the tanks apart at his leisure.[/quote']The operative term here is "...200 meters or more..." Modern tanks such as the M1A2 can do 100 kph and engage from nearly 3 kilometers. Their targetting systems permit them to hit a phone pole a mile away even while moving. Durak's 30 rPD would protect him only from average 8d6 attacks from those 120mm guns, never mind if they're AP X2. A good StunX would finish him (Never mind my own dislike for the Stun Lottery; it's there so we'll use it.). He'd be gunned down long before he got close enough to flip one over.

 

Personally, I'd take Durak out with a 15,000 pound laser-guided MOAB bomb. Why even take the risk of him getting close? Paint the guy with a Laser designator and drop him in one shot. No fuss, no muss.

 

"I say we nuke the site from orbit; it's the only way to be sure."

[nexus]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

The operative term here is "...200 meters or more..." Modern tanks such as the M1A2 can do 100 kph and engage from nearly 3 kilometers. Their targetting systems permit them to hit a phone pole a mile away even while moving. Durak's 30 rPD would protect him only from average 8d6 attacks from those 120mm guns, never mind if they're AP X2. A good StunX would finish him (Never mind my own dislike for the Stun Lottery; it's there so we'll use it.). He'd be gunned down long before he got close enough to flip one over.

 

Personally, I'd take Durak out with a 15,000 pound laser-guided MOAB bomb. Why even take the risk of him getting close? Paint the guy with a Laser designator and drop him in one shot. No fuss, no muss.

 

"I say we nuke the site from orbit; it's the only way to be sure."

 

Man, this thread is like a bucket of cold ice water.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Okay, your group has attacked a protected site; BUT, have they been attacked by a platoon of soldiers at their own base, or while on a mission? I think you'd have a very different outcome. I had a sniper nearly kill off a PC team because they couldn't travel to him fast enough. If you can use Viper 5-Man teams well, soldiers should be just as easy. Change their rifles and give them grenades and such and you'll be butt-whipping PCs in no time. (Well, if they're on the 250-300ish scale.) But use a squad or platoon as opposed to a five man team.

 

Well, just my opinion.

We've taken out some quite sizable groups of "conventional" troops in our campaign. We not only have a team teleporter, but also a storm diety avatar who can do horrible things to the bad guy's vision and PER rolls. And once we get amongst them, fear of friendly fire prevents use of most AoE attacks, which is often the only way normals can hit DCV 10+ PCs.

 

That's not to say that we're immune to military hardware; in fact PC vulnerability to heavy ordnance was a central premise in setting up our campaign's parameters. Supers should not be able to ignore governments entirely IMO. If any national government, especially a major power, wants you dead you're in big trouble.

 

I haven't ever run a sniper scenario (although we've been ambushed by supers more than once, including by Eurostar), mostly because I don't think getting killed from ambush isn't very heroic and we run a Silver Age style game. In an Iron Age world we'd be toast. Of course, in an Iron Age campaign we'd be playing very different characters.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Man' date=' this thread is like a bucket of cold ice water.[/quote']

The pause that refreshes...

[Kirby]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

The operative term here is "...200 meters or more..." Modern tanks such as the M1A2 can do 100 kph and engage from nearly 3 kilometers. Their targetting systems permit them to hit a phone pole a mile away even while moving. Durak's 30 rPD would protect him only from average 8d6 attacks from those 120mm guns, never mind if they're AP X2. A good StunX would finish him (Never mind my own dislike for the Stun Lottery; it's there so we'll use it.). He'd be gunned down long before he got close enough to flip one over.

 

Personally, I'd take Durak out with a 15,000 pound laser-guided MOAB bomb. Why even take the risk of him getting close? Paint the guy with a Laser designator and drop him in one shot. No fuss, no muss.

 

"I say we nuke the site from orbit; it's the only way to be sure."

I like! I like!

[Kirby]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

We've taken out some quite sizable groups of "conventional" troops in our campaign. We not only have a team teleporter' date=' but also a storm diety avatar who can do horrible things to the bad guy's vision and PER rolls. And once we get amongst them, fear of friendly fire prevents use of most AoE attacks, which is often the only way normals can hit DCV 10+ PCs.[/quote']

Wow, interesting. How many CPs are the characters in your campaign, and how many are there?

 

I do like your government idea. I am starting up a new campaign* and I plan on trying to encourage the two players to create a wide range of small to medium powers and abilities instead of a few huge powers. But since we haven't created characters yet, we'll see how it goes. I think I'll keep this in mind. (Basically, I'm going to try and have them create 250pt themed characters, but with 350 points.)

 

*URL's are all about cheap shameless plugs

[Kirby]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

I haven't ever run a sniper scenario (although we've been ambushed by supers more than once' date=' including by Eurostar), mostly because I don't think getting killed from ambush isn't very heroic and we run a Silver Age style game. In an Iron Age world we'd be toast. Of course, in an Iron Age campaign we'd be playing very different characters. [/quote']

Yeah, snipers aren't very Silver-Age-ish, unless it's a good old world war scenario. (Maybe attacked by a squad of Nazi Uberman soldier?)

 

Did you do any damage to Eurostar? I really hate them (except for Pantera in 4th Ed) and look forward to ways to hurt them severely. I was in a campaign where we faced them and my character was the skilled normal with a futuristic weapon. Durak had one NPC and was winding up for a haymaker, while Fiacho was beating down a PC. My character switched his 'pistol' setting to "Big Bertha" which was a 4d6 RKA. I debated on who to save, and fearing that Durak would kill the NPC, I went for a head shot on him, and rolled a 4. I ended up saving the NPC (though we were beat down), but I wish I had hit Fiacho instead; it would have come close to killing him (since he had no resist ED in 4th Ed). Oh well, that was then.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Wow' date=' interesting. How many CPs are the characters in your campaign, and how many are there?[/quote']CPs in our game range from about 370 to 402 (350 + XP). My character Zl'f currently has the most XP at 52; but then she's the only PC who has been played continuously since we started our campaign back in 1992. We currently have eight PCs total, but typically only 5 or 6 are playing at any given session. We rotate GMs (3 regular, 2 others as the mood strikes them) which really helps prevent GM burnout and also keeps each GM aware of how it feels to be on the sharp end of the spear. It also keeps the players aware of what kind of antics most aggravate a GM.

[nexus]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

I wanted to explain my "cold water" comment. I realize it probably sounded allot more jerky than I meant it. Its just sobering to think of how little impact supers really would have at the point totals I like to play with. Sorry about the threadcrapping.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Did you do any damage to Eurostar? I really hate them (except for Pantera in 4th Ed) and look forward to ways to hurt them severely. I was in a campaign where we faced them and my character was the skilled normal with a futuristic weapon. Durak had one NPC and was winding up for a haymaker' date=' while Fiacho was beating down a PC. My character switched his 'pistol' setting to "Big Bertha" which was a 4d6 RKA. I debated on who to save, and fearing that Durak would kill the NPC, I went for a head shot on him, and rolled a 4. I ended up saving the NPC (though we were beat down), but I wish I had hit Fiacho instead; it would have come close to killing him (since he had no resist ED in 4th Ed). Oh well, that was then.[/quote']My thread Woo Hoo! We whipped Eurostar! from August of 2003 might give you a hint.

 

Fiacho and Feuermacher weren't present, so they're still at large. But then, we weren't at full strength either. It was a very tough fight; every member of our team was Stunned or unconscious at least once during the battle. Every member of Eurostar is built on more points than anyone in MidGuard. It's certainly not a rematch I'd look forward to with equanamity. It was a real squeaker, and that's what made it so sweet in the end.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

I wanted to explain my "cold water" comment. I realize it probably sounded allot more jerky than I meant it. Its just sobering to think of how little impact supers really would have at the point totals I like to play with. Sorry about the threadcrapping.

I didn't take it that way at all; merely as a comment on how insignificant supers would be in the real world on the macroscale. They might be very important at smaller scales, but unless your campaign allows you to recreate Superman most supers are really not a match for modern military machines. But then neither are huge but less advanced militaries, such as Iraq's in the Gulf War.

[Chuckg]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

CPs in our game range from about 370 to 402 (350 + XP). My character Zl'f currently has the most XP at 52; but then she's the only PC who has been played continuously since we started our campaign back in 1992.

 

 

Starguard has 65 xp and she's only been played continuously for a year.

 

... it's been an intense year, granted, and it's only been 2-3 xp a session, but still...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

 

Starguard has 65 xp and she's only been played continuously for a year.

 

... it's been an intense year, granted, and it's only been 2-3 xp a session, but still...

For about 8 years we only played 3 or 4 times per year. It was only about two years ago, with the addition of Blackjack to our ranks as both player and GM, that we've started playing once per month again. At 2 - 4 points per adventure (and adventures often take 2 or 3 sessions), we've been slower than most groups to accumulate XP. (We also try hard to clamp down on "XP inflation." Few adventures are actually worth more than 3 XP IMO. Most we've ever given for one advanture was 5, but that one took 4 full sessions.)

 

It's not like that doesn't have its good side, at least from a GMs view. Of course, from a player viewpoint there are never enough XP.

[Chuckg]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Ah. In that case, you're earning XP only a little slower than we are. (We tend to go 3-5 xp per adventure, with 5 xp being for like 4-5 sessions' worth.)

 

It's just, we play at least 3 times a month.

 

Mystery solved. *whew*

[gewing]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

A. not all are THAT powerful.

 

 

B. If they pull a mojojojo soliloquy while standing in the open, they might just get CREAMED.

 

c. I did not that tactics and procedures would have to adapt.

 

 

I would think a team like the Crowns of Krim, or Eurostar or the Warlord's crew would wreak untold havoc on a typical air force base, since the normal security measures in place would be nearly useless against a group of supers suddenly popping up. If it's Diego Garcia, and there's B-52s there, bam! Several billion dollars in damage, just like that. IIRC, most of the stealth bombers operate out of one base...

Or if you drop Grond inside the hull of an aircraft carrier...shudder...

 

The biggest problem for tanks is that the main guns are designed to engage tank-sized vehicles at a distance of 200 meters or more, not human size fast moving targets within 100 meters. Durak could defeat a tank platoon in a turn, just by flipping them all over. He could spend the next few minutes tearing the tanks apart at his leisure.

 

Megavillains, as I've previously stated, are a real nightmare for conventional military forces. They typically have a CV higher than a dodging special forces guy under cover or a jet pulling high-g maneuvers, defenses equal to a tank, or even a tank sitting inside an ICBM silo, enhanced senses to detect incoming attacks and stealth aircraft, movement able to cover hundreds or thousands of miles in hours, minutes or moments, and attacks sufficient to damage or destroy major hardware. Any villain with 30+ rDEF(hardened or not) is nigh-invulnerable to serious injury from most conventional ordnance.

 

Any super who can only be killed by other supers or WMD probably qualifies as an WMD themselves...

[gewing]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Equip a teleporter with some demolition charges and grenades...

 

 

 

 

I could see any mentalist being used as a covert operator, or utilizing their abilities to coordinate troops in battle. VERY effective. I think teleporters *might* tend to go into rescue, even if as a combat medic. Hostage rescuing would just get a whole lot easier.

 

N-Ray vision would be a huge boon (especially if coupled with teleporting).

I could see Invisibility supers tending towards combat easily. Daytime infiltration attacks would get messy. Dictatorships might use them as assassins. (How do you know we did it? Have you any eyewitnesses? No, I didn't think so.)

 

Thinking about it, regeneration might be the least utilized power, considering that you don't want to get shot in the first place. But even an arrogant, aggressive Wolverine type (no adamantine, since that's a technical attachment) would probably get tired of being shot up, and some enemies might take off the head.

 

Mentalists would definitely be the biggest threat. And I see necessity inventing *something* to counter this over a (relatively) short time.

 

For bricks, they probably woudn't fare as well as we'd think. Military arms fire is much higher than typical comics related small arms fire.

[Katherine]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

So the general consensus is that most PC level supers are pretty useless against Military forces and in a realistic superhuman world that operated by Champions rules supers would mean diddley to the military?

 

Huh...our gm has definately been pulling punches or using alternate rules or something.

 

Informative thread...

[Chuckg]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Well, this is assuming that the military totally ignores standard comic book genre conventions and actually fights like down-home dirty sonsofbitches, as opposed to doing it GI Joe style like they usually do in Marvel and DC.

[gewing]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Not useless, just Not able to walk up to an army in the field and wipe them out.

 

Any competant army should be able, for instance to set up an ambush, that if it works right, will take out most supers.

 

Supers should have to use their advantages. Never give the Tanks a line of sight at long range. Take out their command and control. Hit them by surprise. DON'T stay in one place long enough for the artillery or bombers to get there.

 

 

 

So the general consensus is that most PC level supers are pretty useless against Military forces and in a realistic superhuman world that operated by Champions rules supers would mean diddley to the military?

 

Huh...our gm has definately been pulling punches or using alternate rules or something.

 

Informative thread...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Ah. In that case, you're earning XP only a little slower than we are. (We tend to go 3-5 xp per adventure, with 5 xp being for like 4-5 sessions' worth.)

 

It's just, we play at least 3 times a month.

 

Mystery solved. *whew*

If we had played that often in the MidGuard campaign, Zl'f would now be capable of taking on Mechanon solo.

[gewing]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Well said. Rep.

 

edit. When I can again.

 

Well' date=' this is assuming that the military totally ignores standard comic book genre conventions and actually fights like down-home dirty sonsofbitches, as opposed to doing it GI Joe style like they usually do in Marvel and DC.[/quote']

[Trebuchet]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Well' date=' this is assuming that the military totally ignores standard comic book genre conventions and actually fights like down-home dirty sonsofbitches, as opposed to doing it GI Joe style like they usually do in Marvel and DC.[/quote']Yes, human wave tactics in the open against supers would generally constitute a Bad Idea.

 

EDIT: I repped him for you, gewing.

[Kristopher]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Well, this is assuming that the military totally ignores standard comic book genre conventions and actually fights like down-home dirty sonsofbitches, as opposed to doing it GI Joe style like they usually do in Marvel and DC.

 

When genre conventions = someone acting like an idiot, I feel free..no, compelled to dispose of those conventions.

 

I'd rather not have my plots rely on characters acting like idiots (unless they actually are idiots), or acting completely out of character.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

When genre conventions = someone acting like an idiot' date=' I feel free..no, [i']compelled[/i] to dispose of those conventions.

 

Then why are you even reading, much less posting, in the Champions forum?

 

(That's a rhetorical question.)

[Metaphysician]

Re: Jane's Superhumans

 

Presumably because he likes doing supers campaigns that *don't* involve lobotomizing all the participants.

 

It is presumptuous to assume you speak for all of the residents.