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Gary

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Re: Oihid

 

According to pages FRED 169&170, a megasense is recomended, but not required. Lack of such a sense may be dangerous, but a spaceship could make any number of FTL leaps it lied with very little danger of bumping into a planet; there's just not that much to hit in space.

 

Whrn I create my Flash style speedsters, I give them Rapid on sight, and maybe telescopc vision, rather than Megasight. Megasight would (by strict rule interpretation) make you blind to everything withing 1 Kilometer minimum, which would be fatal to a speedster. Desolidification for mega-speedsters, defined as just being that maneuverable, also works. Here's how one version of the power looks:

 

Impossibly Fast: (Total: 80 Active Cost, 59 Real Cost) Flight 10", MegaScale (1" = 100 km; +3/4), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km (+1/4) (40 Active Points); Only In Contact With A Surface (-1/4) (Real Cost: 32) plus Desolidification (affected by Area Attacks) (40 Active Points); Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2) (Real Cost: 27) Real Cost: 59

 

And, for flavor:

15 Time to Look : Rapid (x1,000) with Sight Group

 

He can't crash into anything (he's Desolid), with the special effect being that his rapid sight spots it and his agility lets him step around. Even without the Rapid Sight, it would be legal.

I agree this is a valid way to get around the sensory issue quite well.

 

However, it still does not address the issue about not having a 'middle' gear.

 

As built the power above would not allow the character to go under ~ 1100 which could potentialy be an issue if he were chasing a subsonic plane for example. Regardless of Multipower or VPP the final cost will still be 100+ to cover it. And that does not even address the minimum end per phase of 5 due to the desolidification requirement.

 

HM

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Re: Oihid

 

I agree this is a valid way to get around the sensory issue quite well.

 

However, it still does not address the issue about not having a 'middle' gear.

 

As built the power above would not allow the character to go under ~ 1100 which could potentialy be an issue if he were chasing a subsonic plane for example. Regardless of Multipower or VPP the final cost will still be 100+ to cover it. And that does not even address the minimum end per phase of 5 due to the desolidification requirement.

 

HM

 

Middle Gear: It's in a VPP. Switch it out for movement with as high an NCM as you like. Don't like the VPP? Stick it in an MP and do the same thing. Don't like allowig MPs or VPPs? Go play a game where they are not a quick, legal solution to the "problem." ;)

 

2) It's in a VPP (or MP); Change it for a lower speed option.

 

3) Minimum Cost; is Easy for a 350 point speedster to cover, and is only 59 real points, 80 active, 74 Real or 95 active with the sight. As part of an MP or VPP these points are easy to switch with other abilities at need.

 

4) That's what END is for.

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Omni-thread

 

Grabbing a plane might be quite difficult with your OCV at 0, even against a DCV 3 hex: both NCM and megascale are non-combat movement.

 

Definitely prefer rapid sight to megascale sight. Being able to move quick won't let you see a long way, but you will need to be able to react quickly to what you see. Strictly this is just flavour as there is no actual penalty for not having it, so whatever you like really.

 

Incidentally where are we getting the 'Can be scaled down +1/4' advantage from? The rules abuse shop, presumably?

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Re: Oihid

 

There is no problem with the lack of middle gears. What we are really talking about is two different types of "engines."

 

The one engine is the little bitty one, this one is the one that we use most often. This is the type of engine that would allow the space shuttle to move around a space station.

 

The other engine is the big mamma jamma. This is the one that gets use from point A to point B in a REALLY short amount of time. This is the booster rockets that gets the shuttle into orbit.

 

But what about the Flash? He can move fast in combat and move REALLY fast megascale. But he can also most fast in between the two other types of movement. That is equally valid and there are two way to achieve it:

 

1) You can purchase enough NCM multiples on the base combat movement to make up the middle ground, to the point where the megascale will take over.

 

2) You can purchase a smaller level on Megascale (1" = 10m or 100m etc) in a third MP slot.

 

The first type is definately the easiest to work through. Just do a little math and buy up some NCM. Unfortunately it can also be a little expensive (an entire separate slot would be cheaper (only costing a couple of points), and it will drive up the AP cost of the MP.

 

I like the second method more because it will also allow you to differentiate the levels of movement and apply separate limitations (combat is x1 END, semi-megascale is x2 END and megascale is x3 END).

 

It's not that big a deal and it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to work through the system.

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Re: Omni-thread

 

numbered for clarity...

  1. Grabbing a plane might be quite difficult with your OCV at 0, even against a DCV 3 hex: both NCM and megascale are non-combat movement.
  2. Definitely prefer rapid sight to megascale sight. Being able to move quick won't let you see a long way, but you will need to be able to react quickly to what you see. Strictly this is just flavour as there is no actual penalty for not having it, so whatever you like really.
  3. Incidentally where are we getting the 'Can be scaled down +1/4' advantage from? The rules abuse shop, presumably?

  1. Agreed, levels with flight would probably be necessary to catch a pilot who is flying evasively. A large plane or one on autopilot is reasonable with extra time to match velocities though.
  2. I disagree that Rapid Sense alone would be enough. All that Rapid Sense does is speed up your ability to take IN data. It does not increase your ability to REACT to that same data any quicker since that ability is already a function of SPD and DEX. Have you ever heard of the phrase Overdriving Your Headlights? It refers to driving a vehicle faster than your ability to see and react to road hazard ahead of you. The only way to avoid an accident in this case is to slow down, somehow be able to react faster or see further ahead of your flight path to allow your current reaction speed to compensate. (OddHat's Desolidification solution is an elegant one but reminds me too much of the Barry Allen/Flash's ability to actually go through objects as well which was technically a different special effect. Also reminds me of another catchall power, Transform!)
  3. I already answered this in the concept vs. booklegal thread post 45 : Can be scaled down to 1" = 1km for Megascale as a (+1/4) advantage has been used for published characters. See Photon from CK&C pg 189. ( Conquerors Killers And Crooks. )

HM

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Re: Omni-thread

 

  1. Agreed, levels with flight would probably be necessary to catch a pilot who is flying evasively. A large plane or one on autopilot is reasonable with extra time to match velocities though.
  2. I disagree that Rapid Sense alone would be enough. All that Rapid Sense does is speed up your ability to take IN data. It does not increase your ability to REACT to that same data any quicker since that ability is already a function of SPD and DEX. Have you ever heard of the phrase Overdriving Your Headlights? It refers to driving a vehicle faster than your ability to see and react to road hazard ahead of you. The only way to avoid an accident in this case is to slow down, somehow be able to react faster or see further ahead of your flight path to allow your current reaction speed to compensate. (OddHat's Desolidification solution is an elegant one but reminds me too much of the Barry Allen/Flash's ability to actually go through objects as well which was technically a different special effect. Also reminds me of another catchall power, Transform!)
  3. I already answered this in the concept vs. booklegal thread post 45 : Can be scaled down to 1" = 1km for Megascale as a (+1/4) advantage has been used for published characters. See Photon from CK&C pg 189. ( Conquerors Killers And Crooks. )

HM

 

1) Levels with flight would not help you; Your OCV in NCM is set to 0 and can not be raised (without GM's permission), based on a question I asked Steve on a similar issue a week or so ago.

 

2) The sense is and has always been just a special effect; it is not required at all by the rules. Neither is the desolid. Both are just there for flavor. As to the desolid being too close to just passing through things, Desolid as a form of Super-Dodge is well established in the USPD and elsewhere. Using it as Super Dodge when running is no less "logical" than using it that way in any other situation.

 

At any rate, Micro-adjustments with Megascale (jumping over or moving around anything in your way) are already left to GMs option. Nothing in the game will let you perform them without GM's permission except Desolid.

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Re: Omni-thread

 

1) Levels with flight would not help you; Your OCV in NCM is set to 0 and can not be raised (without GM's permission), based on a question I asked Steve on a similar issue a week or so ago.

 

2) The sense is and has always been just a special effect; it is not required at all by the rules. Neither is the desolid. Both are just there for flavor. As to the desolid being too close to just passing through things, Desolid as a form of Super-Dodge is well established in the USPD and elsewhere. Using it as Super Dodge when running is no less "logical" than using it that way in any other situation.

 

At any rate, Micro-adjustments with Megascale (jumping over or moving around anything in your way) are already left to GMs option. Nothing in the game will let you perform them without GM's permission except Desolid.

  1. Re: levels with flight can you post a link of the thread? (I don't disagree with the logic, I just couldn't find it in the first 3 pages.) The DCV Modifier due to size actually gives a 747 a -3 DCV according to FRED so it should be easy for a character with a 0 OCV to target: (14-). The rules are very thin with regards to interactions between characters and vehicles both moving at non-com speeds.
  2. I am assuming that you are referring to the online USPD since the published book only has desolidification listed as a Barry Allen/Flash-esq vibrate through walls effect. It also gives an example of megascale for normal sight as "a way to perceive obstacles in their path before they hit them".
  3. No Turn Mode's definition of any number of turns during a move seems to fit the bill for a character with Running at standard (non-megascale) non-combat multiples so I don't see why GM's permission is required to combine this concept with megascale senses to avoid potential obstacles when moving at megascale speeds with Flight if it is also bought with the No Turn Mode advantage (+1/4).

HM

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Re: Omni-thread

 

Link

  1. Re: levels with flight can you post a link of the thread? (I don't disagree with the logic, I just couldn't find it in the first 3 pages.) The DCV Modifier due to size actually gives a 747 a -3 DCV according to FRED so it should be easy for a character with a 0 OCV to target: (14-). The rules are very thin with regards to interactions between characters and vehicles both moving at non-com speeds.
  2. I am assuming that you are referring to the online USPD since the published book only has desolidification listed as a Barry Allen/Flash-esq vibrate through walls effect. It also gives an example of megascale for normal sight as "a way to perceive obstacles in their path before they hit them".
  3. No Turn Mode's definition of any number of turns during a move seems to fit the bill for a character with Running at standard (non-megascale) non-combat multiples so I don't see why GM's permission is required to combine this concept with megascale senses to avoid potential obstacles when moving at megascale speeds with Flight if it is also bought with the No Turn Mode advantage (+1/4).

HM

 

1) Steve's reply to a question on a situation where OCV = 0.

 

It's in the book on page 245 -- the OCV and DCV Checklists. They tell you at what point various things that affect (in this case) OCV are applied in the overall OCV calculation. The question then becomes whether a reduction of OCV to 0 counts as "reducing it by a percentage." As noted in the Rules FAQ and 5ER, a reduction of OCV or DCV to 0 should generally be considered as “reducing CV by a percentage,†and thus be applied as the very last step in the OCV or DCV calculation. However, the GM may change this if he wishes (for example, he might consider the 0 to be the character’s base CV).

Link

 

2) See Battlefield Dodging in Dark Champions on p.124, Super-Contortionist Skill on Page 98 of FRED, or re-read the entry for Desolidification on 98-99 with special attention to Only to Protect Against Damage. Desolidification only to keep from crashing into things as you run is no more of a stretch than any of these. The Megascale Sight thing is, again, just for flavor. By the rules, it would actually blind you to anything within a kilometer. Only GMs interpretation lets it "work", and it is not required.

 

3) No Turn Mode can work if the GM chooses to do it that way; by the rules you don't need any power to keep from crashing at all, unless the GM decides that you do. I prefer the Desolid approach, as each turn would be a minimum of 1" (kilometer, or whatever) when using Megascale.

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Re: Oihid

 

2) You can purchase a smaller level on Megascale (1" = 10m or 100m etc) in a third MP slot.

 

Or make a slot with Variable Advantage +1/4. Since you can change the advantage, you can make it Megascale: 1" = 1km, Megascale: 1" = 10 m or whatever scale you like (up to the 1 km breakpoint, of course).

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Re: Oihid

 

Or make a slot with Variable Advantage +1/4. Since you can change the advantage' date=' you can make it Megascale: 1" = 1km, Megascale: 1" = 10 m or whatever scale you like (up to the 1 km breakpoint, of course).[/quote']

I considered that, but figured that might get weird as you were on the cusp of the medium to large megascale options. Course, now that I think about it, its not any different than changing MP slots. :)

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Re: Omni-thread

 

  1. I am assuming that you are referring to the online USPD since the published book only has desolidification listed as a Barry Allen/Flash-esq vibrate through walls effect. It also gives an example of megascale for normal sight as "a way to perceive obstacles in their path before they hit them".

HM

 

I agree it is a way, I just don't see how it is conceptually appropriate for the vast majority of characters. If you are building a spaceship, you might have long range sensors, fine, but a character who is fast...well, I'd anticipate that they would deal with the problem by rapid perception and reactions, they are after all, fast.

 

As mentioned above, though, it is purely flavour, so I'd be going for whatever fits the concept best. You can't use it 'in combat' as it is non-combat move, so you aren't going to be running round the villain's underground base at megascale speed anyway.

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Re: Omni-thread

 

  1. No Turn Mode's definition of any number of turns during a move seems to fit the bill for a character with Running at standard (non-megascale) non-combat multiples so I don't see why GM's permission is required to combine this concept with megascale senses to avoid potential obstacles when moving at megascale speeds with Flight if it is also bought with the No Turn Mode advantage (+1/4).

HM

 

You can't make 'any number of turns' with megascale running as it is non-combat movement.

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Re: Omni-thread

 

You can't make 'any number of turns' with megascale running as it is non-combat movement.

??

I am not aware of any rule that makes basic Running gain a turn mode just because it is being used at non-combat speeds?

 

Plus, that flies in the face of OddHat's sfx of dodging obstacles via desolidification. If a Speedster with MegaScale Running suddenly has a turn mode that means he can only change direction by 60 degrees once every Kilometer (assuming a minimum megascale of 1" = 1km) which makes even less sense!

 

HM

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Re: Omni-thread

 

I agree it is a way, I just don't see how it is conceptually appropriate for the vast majority of characters. If you are building a spaceship, you might have long range sensors, fine, but a character who is fast...well, I'd anticipate that they would deal with the problem by rapid perception and reactions, they are after all, fast.

 

As mentioned above, though, it is purely flavour, so I'd be going for whatever fits the concept best. You can't use it 'in combat' as it is non-combat move, so you aren't going to be running round the villain's underground base at megascale speed anyway.

I see you conveniently ignored my previous comment about Rapid Senses increasing perception speed** but NOT reaction speed since that is a function of DEX and SPD. I am not saying that rapid sense is not appropriate but that it ALONE does not solve the problem since perception is governed by INT which is not factored into SPD.

 

**Just because a high speed camera (thousands of frames/second) can catch the inch by inch movement of a bullet in mid-flight does not mean that the photagrapher is now bestowed with the ability to catch the bullet too!

 

I totally agree that there are multiple ways to skin a cat so to speek but not at the expense of the core rules. Non-combat movement is just that, movement for outside of traditonal fights. But, high speed chases happen all the time in comics.

 

How would you propose to build the movement powers of a character who can chase down a jet aircraft?

 

Say like Kal-EL(Clark) in the season openner of Smallville where he not only matches speed but rips the door off the plane and enters it midflight? The pilots were aware of his approach via radar so assuming that they attempted evasive manuevers (which according to FRED allow the pilot to offset the size modifiers to the plane's DVC which would already be 1/2 due to moving at non-combat speeds) the plane would have a non zero/negative DCV. Assuming that Clark/Kal-EL is moving at non-com speeds too, how does he manage to land/HIT the plane that has a positive DCV when his OCV is 0 from also moving at non-com speeds as well? (a 0 OCV which cannot be increased in any way according to a an answer from Steve L. about Invisibility and the application 0 OCV modifiers)

 

If that example isn't good how about Superman chasing down the ICBM (which I am guessing moves Mach 3+) with a built in missle avoidance system in the original motion picture. Same logic as above. What set of powers do you build this with?

 

Let's see... Superman probably does have several levels of Rapid Sense as well as Telescopic and Megascale Sight since he could see Lois trapped under of all things... a Ford LTD from halfway across the State of California!

 

HM

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