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Re: Oihid

 

That's true of any -¼ Limitation' date=' be it IIF or Activation 14- or "Not During Blue Moons." The responsibility for enforcement still lays with the GM. Ideally a good player will help without prompting ("Captain Colossus is still in his Secret ID because he was in the restaurant on a date with Polly Sweetbread, his DNPC girlfriend. So when The Mad Bomber's attack goes off he has only 4 ED. He's gonna get hurt because he's covering her body with his own, and he has to protect his Secret ID."), but if that doesn't happen then the GM must do it. [/quote']

 

 

As pointed out, this scenario happens so seldom that I question it's value as a limitation. Just how often does one get attacked in secret ID when presumably the villains don't know that ID? You've indicated that some characters who have OIHID in your campaign had it crop up exactly once in the entire campaign.

 

Also, a player is reasonably assured that the Mad Bomber's attack won't kill him outright even with his 4 ED. It's sorta the compact between player and GM that no fiat deaths occur. So the risk is less than it appears at first glance.

 

 

OIHID is not more abusive than any other equally valued Limitation. IMO it is far less abusive than most IIFs, which are often protected by their own intrinsic defenses and basically can't be taken unless the character is unconscious and the opponent has a full Turn to remove the IIF. In one Turn in HERO most characters could build a cathedral. What are the odds of a character who is Stunned or KO'd being out for an entire Turn in order to lose that focus? And how often does that happen in order to make the Limitation worth -¼? One out of 20 fights? One out of 50?

 

Why does Iron Man get the price break but Captain Marvel doesn't rate it?

 

 

It depends. If the IIF only caused problems once in 20 sessions, or only once ever, I would have the same problem with it that I do with OIHID.

 

Most -1/4's aren't that big of a problem because they have obvious ways of being exploited, and they don't usually cover the majority of points of the character. The ones that turn 350 pt characters into 400 pt characters while seldom popping up are the ones I have a problem with.

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Re: Oihid

 

Again' date=' this is very campagin dependant. In my games where character have OIHID, they find themselves dealing with it very regularly, and not just by getting shot while drinking tea.[/quote']

 

 

Just out of curiosity, how often has Athenian been KO'd in your campaign before being able to change into hero ID?

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Re: Oihid

 

Uhm... it should be a _problem_ one in 20. Using the Activation scale... it should _potentially_ be a problem every single adventure.

 

Seriously. Activation, even when it activates, always has the risk of failure. OIHID, even when you transform without getting pasted, should always have a risk. (Seriously. They should almost _always_ have to transform _during_ the scenario)

 

The 1/20 should be how often you get KO'd.

 

 

In your campaigns, do you find that most characters transform near combat, or do lots of them already start in hero ID at the start of combat?

 

Also with activation rolls, it's per shot. So if you take 10 shots during an average scenario, you have a roughly 50% chance of it activating. So the activation roll affects you half the time, not 5% like OIHID.

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Re: Oihid

 

In your campaigns, do you find that most characters transform near combat, or do lots of them already start in hero ID at the start of combat?

 

Also with activation rolls, it's per shot. So if you take 10 shots during an average scenario, you have a roughly 50% chance of it activating. So the activation roll affects you half the time, not 5% like OIHID.

 

I've only ever had one OIHID player... (This is probably a coincidence)

He transforms _in_ combat, sometimes. (Werewolf, part of a power pool)

Before? No.

 

Edit: Not that changing before combat fits OIHID. If someone was to usually start transformed... well... no go. OIHID implies a not-HID. That means that you should usually not be in HID. If you want OIHID with no 'pants down', no 'not-HID'.... then, similiar to the battlesuit guy with the 'invincible OIF'... you get downgraded by -1/4.

 

10 shots is quite a lot, btw.

 

-Activation on ALL your powers is likely to come up more frequently than OIHID considered that way. But only piecemeal. You won't be stuck at crap CV, DEF _and_ with no attack power. More to the point, with Activation, there's no sense of 'play round it'. If it happens, it happens. So it needn't affect play style that much.

 

OIHID also has a little bit of 'Noisy' wrapped up into it... no stealthy 'I use my powers through my glasses' for you!

 

It should come up every scenario, one way or another. Failing to activate is just part of that, of course... maybe sometimes it would be nifty to do stuff secret ID, maybe you just need to blow a phase transforming... or (see below)

 

 

Also, OIHID usually implies 'I can steal your powers!' plots are a little easier. After all, if you can 'turn it off'...

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Re: Oihid

 

As pointed out' date=' this scenario happens so seldom that I question it's value as a limitation. Just how often does one get attacked in secret ID when presumably the villains don't know that ID? You've indicated that some characters who have OIHID in your campaign had it crop up exactly [b']once[/b] in the entire campaign.

 

[snip]

 

Most -1/4's aren't that big of a problem because they have obvious ways of being exploited, and they don't usually cover the majority of points of the character. The ones that turn 350 pt characters into 400 pt characters while seldom popping up are the ones I have a problem with.

I distinctly said "at least once." But that's irrelevant to this discussion anyway. IOHID should, and does, effect the game in ways beyond mere tactical considerations. Twelve Charges get the character a -¼ Limitation too. But I've seen dozens, if not hundreds, of combats where even a character with only 12 Charges didn't run out of charges. Most Champions combats in my experience last less than 2 Turns; many last less than one.

 

Let's take a more concrete example. My character Zl'f saves a grand total of 24 CP by using OIHID on some of her Powers. The only defense amongst those is her Missile Deflection/Reflection, a Power she has used exactly twice in her entire 12 year career as a PC. Now Zl'f may or may not be typical, but I certainly don't think she's unique. I could have easily bought off the OIHID with her current 52 XP, but I didn't because I don't want her super all the time. I want her "only human" some of the time. It's important to roleplaying her, at least to me.

 

On the other hand, Zl'f saves a whopping 160 CP by using a Multipower, which contains most of her specialized attacks. Without her savings from the MP she'd cost 562 CP instead of 402. So please explain again how OIHID is so abusive compared to other Limitations and Frameworks?

 

It appears to me that your problem with OIHID is that you don't feel like enforcing it properly. Fine. But don't blame the game mechanics for your own proclivities (I hesitate to use "shortcomings") as a GM and/or player. Other GMs here don't seem to share your misgivings about OIHID, Gary. Given how little you appear to like "uncontrollable" or open-ended situations, I'm frankly sorta surprised you play RPGs at all. :angst:

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Re: Oihid

 

Just out of curiosity' date=' how often has Athenian been KO'd in your campaign before being able to change into hero ID?[/quote']

 

At this point we both know that there's no answer that will stop your complaining about the subject. ;)

 

Athenian is a fairly new character, built as part of my New Circle group and test played by my wife. So far, she has been knocked out and kidnapped while in civilian ID, forced to change out of her Heroic form once, and shot once. Much more importantly from a game POV, she, like every character in my campaigns that has had OIHID, has spent part of every play session faced with tasks that could not be accomplished unless she performed them in her human form.

 

None of this requires any more effort incorporating her limits into the scenario than those of any other character.

 

Again, if the limit pisses you off so much, you can always ban it. ;)

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Re: Oihid

 

As pointed out' date=' this scenario happens so seldom that I question it's value as a limitation. Just how often does one get attacked in secret ID when presumably the villains don't know that ID? You've indicated that some characters who have OIHID in your campaign had it crop up exactly [b']once[/b] in the entire campaign.

 

Gary, how often do you take Inaccessible Foci away from your players? That is after all the limit that OIHID is meant to resemble and sometimes replace.

 

Personally, I've had no problem making OIHID at least as much of a problem for characters as a suit of Power Armor or a Power Ring.

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Re: Oihid

 

snip...

Most -1/4's aren't that big of a problem because they have obvious ways of being exploited, and they don't usually cover the majority of points of the character. The ones that turn 350 pt characters into 400 pt characters while seldom popping up are the ones I have a problem with.

I guess my namesake character falls into this trap with roughly 60-70 point savings due to OIHID.

 

In defense of that build I would like to point out that 37 points were spent on non-combat related skills and talents as well as an additional 8 points of redundant non-combat movement. I purposely did not make a combat monster, instead I had a powerset in mind that I just could not build as a 350 point character any other way without being only useful for combat and not much else. This is usually the case with most Flying Bricks. My character is not a typical brick since his defenses are comparably low (*except when prepared with damage reduction) and he has no Martial Arts or combat skill levels. Creative use of his powers and basic maneuvers are his ONLY combat options.

 

The character could maybe hold his own in a one on one contest vs. someone like Durak but he would have a hard time finishing him without exhausting himself very quickly.

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Re: Oihid

 

Gary,

 

On the one hand, if you are GMing then it is up to you to make sure that ANY limitation has comensurate drawbacks to the point savings.

 

On the other hand, if you are playing a character with a Hero ID, just keep your head down and hope that the GM DOESN'T do what I suggested above.

 

On the gripping hand (noprize for knowing what that references...) I am beginning to think you are playing in a game and someone else has a character with OIHID, HIDO, HIDIHO or whatever, and the GM isn't properly enforcing it, so it is ticking you off. Have a word with the GM, get them squished, then visit them in hospital and take grapes...which you eat as they are in a full body cast. Go on, you'll feel batter.

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Re: Oihid

 

Gary,

 

On the one hand, if you are GMing then it is up to you to make sure that ANY limitation has comensurate drawbacks to the point savings.

 

On the other hand, if you are playing a character with a Hero ID, just keep your head down and hope that the GM DOESN'T do what I suggested above.

 

On the gripping hand (noprize for knowing what that references...) I am beginning to think you are playing in a game and someone else has a character with OIHID, HIDO, HIDIHO or whatever, and the GM isn't properly enforcing it, so it is ticking you off. Have a word with the GM, get them squished, then visit them in hospital and take grapes...which you eat as they are in a full body cast. Go on, you'll feel batter.

CRAZY EDDY!

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Re: Oihid

 

It depends. If the IIF only caused problems once in 20 sessions' date=' or only once [b']ever[/b], I would have the same problem with it that I do with OIHID.

 

Most -1/4's aren't that big of a problem because they have obvious ways of being exploited, and they don't usually cover the majority of points of the character. The ones that turn 350 pt characters into 400 pt characters while seldom popping up are the ones I have a problem with.

 

Put "Activates 15-" on 300 points of abilities, and our character has 110 left to play with. That's the same -1/4 limitation as IIF or OIHID.

 

One time in 20 when the character tries to use each power, it will fail. 19 times in 20, it will work. However, the very next phase, he can try to use the power again. If his main defense Acts 15-, he'll have a problem if it fails to activate. But the 60 pooints saved by having 300 points Act 15- can pay for a very nice defensive suite with no activation roll. Or he can gamble and have a 75 point defensive suite, significantly enhancing durability if the activation rolls work in his favour (and, as you say, the GM probably won't just kill him if is defenses fail to activate - he'll be out of the rest of the battle, at worst). BOTTOM LINE: Act 15- will affect the character 1 out of 20 times he tries to use each power.

 

Now let's look at our OIF or OIHID (or my favorite "not in an intense magnetic field") character. If, one scenario in 20, his powers are completely unavailable, is that seriously a lesser drawback than 1 in 20 attempted uses of the power failing? If I don't have my IIF, or am not in hero ID, I have absolutely no chance at accessing those powers. And characters with IIF or OIHID saving lots of points commonly have most of their defensive powers tied up in those limitations. The bigger problem, IMO, is that these characters operate in binary mode. Either they have all their powers, or they are doomed in a typical scenario. As such, it's much easier to perceive the GM as "picking on" the characters by exploiting these limitations (much like a character with 3d6 Stun and BOD susceptibility from sunlight perceives himself being picked on when Dr. Vampire is forced out into the light). The player choosing OIHID for a major power suite should be told up front that this means there WILL be times when those powers are unavailable, possibly for an entire session or story arc. If the player isn't prepared to accept that, the limitation should be removed.

 

BTW, Gary, I still don't get your physical limitation issue. If your goal is to cap the points benefit of OIHID, the formula for Physical Limitation imposes an effective cap. You need to assess how limiting it is (frequency and level of impairment), which to some extent will be influenced by the number of points affected. Saying "You get the same points as OIHID to the max points from one disadvantage category" seems much less clear that you view this as a disadvantage and not a limitation. It seems to create a third, hybrid category.

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Re: Oihid

 

BTW, Gary, I still don't get your physical limitation issue. If your goal is to cap the points benefit of OIHID, the formula for Physical Limitation imposes an effective cap. You need to assess how limiting it is (frequency and level of impairment), which to some extent will be influenced by the number of points affected. Saying "You get the same points as OIHID to the max points from one disadvantage category" seems much less clear that you view this as a disadvantage and not a limitation. It seems to create a third, hybrid category.

 

Agreed. It's just messy. If I did choose to cap OIHID by making it a Physical Limit, I can't see why it would make sense to treat it as being worth more points than any other Phys Limit that was Infrequently Fully Impairing.

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Re: Oihid

 

Agreed. It's just messy. If I did choose to cap OIHID by making it a Physical Limit' date=' I can't see why it would make sense to treat it as being worth more points than any other Phys Limit that was Infrequently Fully Impairing.[/quote']

 

It may even be less than fully impairing if the character isn't based on OIHID, although most are.

 

This then begs the question why not convert IIF as well. "Loses most powers without magic undergarments- Infrequent, Fully Impairing" rather than IIF Magic Thingamajig on a host of powers. Oh, and it's an unbreakable Magic Undergarment. Hey, how many villains strip the heroes of theoir underwear? :nonp: This is a G Rated comic!

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Re: Oihid

 

As pointed out' date=' this scenario happens so seldom that I question it's value as a limitation. Just how often does one get attacked in secret ID when presumably the villains don't know that ID? You've indicated that some characters who have OIHID in your campaign had it crop up exactly once in the entire campaign.[/quote']

You read much Spider-man? Peter has just as much trouble in his life as Spider-man does. Perhaps you don't actually role-play non-hero time but many of us do, and it's at those times that it comes into play. I believe the rule in 5E is that a -1/4 limitation should effect the character about one in four adventures. That means it's the GM's responsibility to cause some grief for the character during those times.

 

It's all special effects based though. Maybe Tony Stark has debris fall on him before he can put on his armor when the museum is attacked. Maybe Colossus is trapped in a chemical factory that eats metal if he changes to that form. Maybe Billy Batson is on the school bus when it gets trapped and all his friends will see him change when he says SHAZAM. These are all the things the GM needs to decide when planning the adventure.

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Re: Oihid

 

It may even be less than fully impairing if the character isn't based on OIHID, although most are.

 

This then begs the question why not convert IIF as well. "Loses most powers without magic undergarments- Infrequent, Fully Impairing" rather than IIF Magic Thingamajig on a host of powers. Oh, and it's an unbreakable Magic Undergarment. Hey, how many villains strip the heroes of theoir underwear? :nonp: This is a G Rated comic!

 

In a way, I could see building a version of HERO where all limitations were taken as Phys Lims and Psych Lims; it would be more transparent than the current system when you were figuring out how many points a character was "really" built on. It would also mean re-pricing a large number of powers, and redoing almost all published characters. Pain in the arse, especially with the addition of underwear stealing bad guys. ;)

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Re: Oihid

 

The trouble with buying limitations as disadvantages is that it becomes a bit awkward when you don't want to apply the limitations to a few of the points the character is built on. Take Superman. I've said that he doesn't have HIDIHO, IMO at all, but I've thought again. Those glasses he wears as CK probably IMPAIR his uber-vision. What if all you wanted to buy the limitation on was a few points of a 1000+ point character? There would be no realistic way of doing it. Fine if you are Billy Batson, not fine if you are Clark Kent.

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Re: Oihid

 

Maybe Billy Batson is on the school bus when it gets trapped and all his friends will see him change when he says SHAZAM.

 

...and the lightning will ignite the leaking fuel and kill them all...

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Re: Oihid

 

The trouble with buying limitations as disadvantages is that it becomes a bit awkward when you don't want to apply the limitations to a few of the points the character is built on. Take Superman. I've said that he doesn't have HIDIHO' date=' IMO at all, but I've thought again. Those glasses he wears as CK probably IMPAIR his uber-vision. What if all you wanted to buy the limitation on was a few points of a 1000+ point character? There would be no realistic way of doing it. Fine if you are Billy Batson, not fine if you are Clark Kent.[/quote']

 

You'd declare any limitation that was less than Infrequently, Slightly limiting to be worth 0 points, as is already the case with minor SFX limits and advantages. You could also add in some 1 point "quirk" limits.

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Re: Oihid

 

You'd declare any limitation that was less than Infrequently' date=' Slightly limiting to be worth 0 points, as is already the case with minor SFX limits and advantages. You could also add in some 1 point "quirk" limits.[/quote']

 

Sounds messier than the current system, and far more open to misinterpretation and abuse because it is so much more a 'judgement call' as to what amounts to a disadvantagegiven the overall level of power and what doesn't and when that would apply, especially if it is not tied to a specific power as limitations are.

 

I don't think it would solve the current problems and I don't think it would be good for the game. Whilst Hero stresses balance, it is balance overall - what you are advocating is building every character on the same number of active points, butI really can't get how that would help: this is not an exact science and the relative cost/benefit of the various powers will never exactly balance anyway, and will vary from campaign to campaign. Balance is a touch and feel quality for each group, and is often overrated as a game tool. JLA contains Superman and Batman. No way are they points equivalent, but you can (just about) run a game with them both in (if you don't mind Batman having so many more points than Supes....)

 

Making every limitation a disadvantage would make it far harder to run the game and would not encourage people to define powers exactly...adding that additional 'does no KB' will make no difference to the points you get from the disadvantage, so it isn't worth the trouble of crafting it that closely.

 

In any even they are not going to do it. It would make most of the back catalogue obsolete.

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Re: Oihid

 

I don't think it would solve the current problems and I don't think it would be good for the game. Whilst Hero stresses balance' date=' it is balance [i']overall[/i] - what you are advocating is building every character on the same number of active points, butI really can't get how that would help: this is not an exact science and the relative cost/benefit of the various powers will never exactly balance anyway, and will vary from campaign to campaign.

 

I'm not sure "In a way, I could see" = advocating, especially as I finish by saying that it would be a pain in the arse. ;)

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Re: Oihid

 

I distinctly said "at least once." But that's irrelevant to this discussion anyway. IOHID should' date=' and does, effect the game in ways beyond mere tactical considerations. Twelve Charges get the character a -¼ Limitation too. But I've seen dozens, if not hundreds, of combats where even a character with only 12 Charges didn't run out of charges. Most Champions combats in my experience last less than 2 Turns; many last less than one.[/quote']

 

"At least once" means that some had it happen only once. And having it happen only once in your entire gaming career isn't worth an overall -1/4 limitation.

 

Do all your adventuring scenarios have only one combat? In many scenarios, there are a series of combats. You may use up 5 charges in one combat, 3 in the next, and 4 in the third. Often the GM sets up situations where you can't reload and recharge. The 12 charges are a lot more of a limitation than something that crops up once in an entire adventuring career.

 

 

Let's take a more concrete example. My character Zl'f saves a grand total of 24 CP by using OIHID on some of her Powers. The only defense amongst those is her Missile Deflection/Reflection, a Power she has used exactly twice in her entire 12 year career as a PC. Now Zl'f may or may not be typical, but I certainly don't think she's unique. I could have easily bought off the OIHID with her current 52 XP, but I didn't because I don't want her super all the time. I want her "only human" some of the time. It's important to roleplaying her, at least to me.

 

On the other hand, Zl'f saves a whopping 160 CP by using a Multipower, which contains most of her specialized attacks. Without her savings from the MP she'd cost 562 CP instead of 402. So please explain again how OIHID is so abusive compared to other Limitations and Frameworks?

 

Zl'f is only saving 24 pts. That's a far cry from saving 50-70 pts. However, it seems fairly easy for her to shift to heroic form even if she were caught with her pants down. After all from what I know of the character, she can simply abort to heroic form while dodging for a positively obscene DCV.

 

 

 

It appears to me that your problem with OIHID is that you don't feel like enforcing it properly. Fine. But don't blame the game mechanics for your own proclivities (I hesitate to use "shortcomings") as a GM and/or player. Other GMs here don't seem to share your misgivings about OIHID, Gary. Given how little you appear to like "uncontrollable" or open-ended situations, I'm frankly sorta surprised you play RPGs at all. :angst:

 

 

From what you've described, it just reinforces my point. There are characters in your campaign who have it crop up exactly once in their gaming careers.

 

And please lay off the insults and personal digs.

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Re: Oihid

 

Let me introduce you to the major villain Professor Pervert.... :nonp:

 

Now there's a Character Creation thread for the Champions Board. ;)

 

Or would that be Other Genres: Hentai Hero?

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Re: Oihid

 

Gary, how often do you take Inaccessible Foci away from your players? That is after all the limit that OIHID is meant to resemble and sometimes replace.

 

Personally, I've had no problem making OIHID at least as much of a problem for characters as a suit of Power Armor or a Power Ring.

 

 

More often than OIHID. Foci can be destroyed, damaged, or taken away. Once a person is in heroic ID, it takes a skilled mind controller or someone with a hostage to force the player back into normal ID. And that's assuming the opponent knows about the normal ID.

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Re: Oihid

 

Gary,

 

On the one hand, if you are GMing then it is up to you to make sure that ANY limitation has comensurate drawbacks to the point savings.

 

On the other hand, if you are playing a character with a Hero ID, just keep your head down and hope that the GM DOESN'T do what I suggested above.

 

On the gripping hand (noprize for knowing what that references...) I am beginning to think you are playing in a game and someone else has a character with OIHID, HIDO, HIDIHO or whatever, and the GM isn't properly enforcing it, so it is ticking you off. Have a word with the GM, get them squished, then visit them in hospital and take grapes...which you eat as they are in a full body cast. Go on, you'll feel batter.

 

 

Actually in my most recent game, nobody has OIHID. The GM frowns on stuff like that. However in the past, this limitation almost never cropped up enough to matter, and usually wasn't worth the points.

 

The trouble with that limitation is that usually it takes a "I'm the GM and I'm going to screw with your character" scenario to make it come up. And there are only a limited number of times that the GM can realistically run this type of scenario, and even if you didn't have OIHID, the GM could still run that type of scenario against you anyway.

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