Oihid

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Oihid

 

There are degrees of course. I have no problem with a magic sword or ring because presumably it's a relatively small percentage of a character's points.

 

So you woud have a problem with a character who has 300 points Act 15- also? That saves a large percentage of the character's points. It seems reasonable to me that a character who has limitations on more powers would naturally save more points.

 

By contrast, a disadvantage generally has fixed effects. Either you can walk, or you can't. Inability to walk does not render other powers (other than bonus running, I suppose) less useful.

 

I dislike disads that affect the vast majority of a character's points. The ones where the character is terrifyingly powerful 95% of the time but helpless 5% of the time.

 

This, to me, is a more cogent issue. The character operates in a binary model. He is either fully powered, or potentially useless. On the other hand, consider a character whose powers "Do not work against automatons". Example: a mentalist (no telekinesis - purely mind-affecting powers) whose defenses have the SFX of subtly influencing the attacker to pull his punch/srike a glancing blow/etc. Some powers have the limitation by default (eg. Ego Blast) and others have an actual limitation (defenses). When faced with an automaton, the character is useless. Should such a character also be banned? Should the cost of mental powers be raised, and the character have a physical limitation of "can't attack automatons" instead?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Oihid

 

I disagree. Act 15- is hardly as all encompassing as OIHID. And even if it were applied to the majority of the character's points' date=' the constant rolling of every attack, defense, movement, and utility power phase after phase after phase will result in a decent number of failures. When you make 3-4 rolls per phase, it adds up.[/quote']

 

In our last game session, my character's VPP included a Flash and a Drain, both of which acted 15-. He also had an OCV bonus (costs END) which acts 14-. On virtually every phase of a combat that went over two turns, he fired a MPA of the two attack powers using some or all of the bonus OCV. As I recall, he failed one activation roll.

 

The character's VPP requires all powers have a suite of limitations, and attack powers almost always include Act 15-. He also has an activation roll for the ability to change his VPP (this one on a sliding scale starting at 14-). In general, he fails one roll in a game session.

 

To me, he's a lot less vulnerable than a guy whose defenses depend on being in a specific form. [Mind you, his defenses normally come primarily from force fields or walls, so unless he knows it's coming, he's pretty vulnerable too. He does have enough inherent defenses to survive a hit without his extra defenses, but with 30 STUN and 10 DEF, a typical 12d6 EB will just barely KO him unless he has extra defenses. He doesn't have OIHID - he lacks any other form.]

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Oihid

 

As to what the drawbacks of OIHID should be, that depends on the character, but there should be one. Colossus is commonly cited as an OIHID character. He would appear to be a good example of Gary's worst case scenario - at best, he changes in a phase, and he seems to change during other actions, implying 0 phase.

 

I can only recall two circumstances where his extra powers were unavailable. First, mutant powers in general were suppressed, so his OIHID created no special advantage. Second, fighting Magneto. Not because he couldn't change, but because he became a very convenient weapon for Magneto if he did. Is it worth -1/4? Depends on how common Magneto is.

 

As an aside, I'd buiild Colossus with a lot of abilities linked to his armor, not with OIHID. However, that's also a -1/4 limitation on everything but the armor, and it has almost identical effects, except that activation of the armor is a zero phase action (ie even faster than switching to hero ID). Under Gary's approach, I assume this would also become a disadvantage, since otherwise it can be used to evade the OIHID restriction on all but one power. [And let's realy be abusive - make that 5 PD armor and buy other defenses as PD, ED and Damage Resistance, Linked to Armor ]

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

Did he? I didn't catch that. They can both be used' date=' and I've approved characters with both. In my experience, Multiform can be much more unbalancing to a game than OIHID unless the GM keeps very strict control over it. I recently saw a player that wanted to play a Multiform character with a VPP in one form and mutipowers in the others, and limits on the powers in every form. Legal, but insanely overpowered for the campaign.[/quote']

 

Bottom of page 8 of this thread. OK, what he said was that an OIHID character described in an earlier post sounded more like an appropriate use for multiform. I was paraphrasing. Or possibly parachuting.

 

I do hope the player (mentioned above) was taught the error of their ways.

 

This is a perfect example of a case where a character is rules legal but abusive in terms of balance. You may apply whatever point I'm making to the side of the argument you prefer.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

As an aside' date=' I'd buiild Colossus with a lot of abilities linked to his armor, not with OIHID. However, that's also a -1/4 limitation on everything but the armor, and it has almost identical effects, except that activation of the armor is a zero phase action (ie even faster than switching to hero ID). Under Gary's approach, I assume this would also become a disadvantage, since otherwise it can be used to evade the OIHID restriction on all but one power. [And let's realy be abusive - make that 5 PD armor and buy other defenses as PD, ED and Damage Resistance, Linked to Armor ]

 

If you had enough armour to make the linked powers equal to or less expensive in terms of active points, it would be -1/2 or -3/4 if you had to use the armour at full value (sheesh...). The disadvantage there is from adjustment powers...lose your armour, lose everything.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Oihid

 

If you had enough armour to make the linked powers equal to or less expensive in terms of active points' date=' it would be -1/2 or -3/4 if you had to use the armour at full value (sheesh...). The disadvantage there is from adjustment powers...lose your armour, lose everything.[/quote']

 

Valid points all round.

 

My assumption was that the armor would cost considerably lessdue to the extent of powers it will be linked to.

 

And Colossus seems to have lots of Power Defense, doesn't he?

 

Actually, we should link all our powers to +5 Power Defense, except our 25 Power Defense, if we really want to be abusive...

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

Bottom of page 8 of this thread. OK, what he said was that an OIHID character described in an earlier post sounded more like an appropriate use for multiform. I was paraphrasing. Or possibly parachuting.

 

I do hope the player (mentioned above) was taught the error of their ways.

 

This is a perfect example of a case where a character is rules legal but abusive in terms of balance. You may apply whatever point I'm making to the side of the argument you prefer.

 

I disalowed the character, and my co-GM banned the player (which I didn't like, but that's another story). In any case it was not, imo, a problem with the rules as such, and keeping it from becoming a problem in the game was easy enough. In another setting, in a much higher powered game, I might have let the character in. With the Hero system, a lot of things end up being judgement calls.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

Valid points all round.

 

My assumption was that the armor would cost considerably lessdue to the extent of powers it will be linked to.

 

And Colossus seems to have lots of Power Defense, doesn't he?

 

Actually, we should link all our powers to +5 Power Defense, except our 25 Power Defense, if we really want to be abusive...

 

Make the 25 power defense Innate so it can't be drained.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oihid

 

Getting back to the roleplaying aspect of OIHID for a moment....

 

A character largely built around OIHID or Multiform for that matter should require that the PLAYER be putting forth an effort to want to spend gametime in his non-powered form. It shouldn't have to fall on the GM all the time to enforce this. If the player doesn't, a GM can just give him less experience than he would have otherwise earned based on fact that he was facing threats designed for 350 points instead of 400-450 points. A little heavy handed but it would get the point across.

 

A precedent exists in the source material (comics) with Superman (technically not OIHID but still relevant to this discussion), Billy Batson as well as Iron Man just to name a few. Superman choses to dress up as Clark Kent because that IS who he is, Superman is just a role he plays (as opposed to Batman who plays the role of Bruce Wayne). Billy Batson has a normal life to contend with and no access to superpowers to make that life any easier without calling down "The Lightning". Iron Man can't wear "The Armor" all the time because he still has a real life to live.

 

Now, if the GM does not want to take the effort to explore the Secret ID moments with these characters it begs to question: does he do it with characters who otherwise have the 24/7 powers like Superman? If not, he isn't even enforcing Disadvantages so who cares about Limitations if everyone participating in the game session is having fun.

 

My old 80's game used to feature a pretty regular dose of "semi-normal Agents" stories until the team became extremely efficient at taking them down. From then on it was assumed that our characters were still fighting this otherwise common scourge of the everyday supers-world but we did NOT spend anymore game sessions on them. Was that wrong? I don't know for sure but we all had fun. Isn't that the point of these exercises in wasting time?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

Getting back to the roleplaying aspect of OIHID for a moment....

 

A character largely built around OIHID or Multiform for that matter should require that the PLAYER be putting forth an effort to want to spend gametime in his non-powered form. It shouldn't have to fall on the GM all the time to enforce this.

 

Point of order! Would you expect the player of a werewolf character to hand out silver ammunition?

 

Now, if the GM does not want to take the effort to explore the Secret ID moments with these characters it begs to question: does he do it with characters who otherwise have the 24/7 powers like Superman? If not, he isn't even enforcing Disadvantages so who cares about Limitations if everyone participating in the game session is having fun.

 

My old 80's game used to feature a pretty regular dose of "semi-normal Agents" stories until the team became extremely efficient at taking them down. From then on it was assumed that our characters were still fighting this otherwise common scourge of the everyday supers-world but we did NOT spend anymore game sessions on them. Was that wrong? I don't know for sure but we all had fun. Isn't that the point of these exercises in wasting time?

 

Absolutely right. I think we sometimes get caught up in the minutiae in these boards to the point where we (briefly) lose sight of why we play. Well said!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oihid

 

Point of order! Would you expect the player of a werewolf character to hand out silver ammunition?

Nope, but he also had better not bitch when the NPC's get their hands on some.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Oihid

 

Point of order! Would you expect the player of a werewolf character to hand out silver ammunition?

 

No, but I expect the guys with CvK to not say "Okay, I kill him" and not expect ME to stop them.

 

Or the guy with Social Limitation: to make an ass of himself in a social situation without prompting.

 

Or the guy with Activation to, you know, _actually roll_.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Oihid

 

I disagree. Act 15- is hardly as all encompassing as OIHID. And even if it were applied to the majority of the character's points, the constant rolling of every attack, defense, movement, and utility power phase after phase after phase will result in a decent number of failures. When you make 3-4 rolls per phase, it adds up.

 

He'll have a few failures, but he will also _always_ have most of his powers.

 

It's pretty arrogant of you to flat out state that the PC is going to be more boring with fewer Disads. It should be up to the individual player to decide that for himself.

 

Same character with less disadvantages? Going to have less hooks and quirks. Assuming same player, going to be more boring.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Oihid

 

What you're describing actually sounds more like multiform than OIHID.

 

Explain this. How is this NOT OIHID. And what IS OIHID, if this isn't it?

[Warp9]

Re: Oihid

 

Absolutely right. I think we sometimes get caught up in the minutiae in these boards to the point where we (briefly) lose sight of why we play. Well said!

You are kidding right???

 

You’re not going to deny that its ALL about the system are you?

 

The only real reason that we actually play these games is so that we may better understand the elegance of the rules.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

I said "clearly and quantifiable numbers." I've never played ASL, but I've played the original Squad Leader and other wargames since 1975. Knowing that an 88L gun has an x% of penetrating a certain armor or that only certain guns have any chance (and a highly predictable one at that) of penetrating the frontal armor of a Jagdtiger provides a certain security blanket. It's not nearly entirely random like most roleplaying. Sure, a series of low probability events can occur in sequence giving very unlikely results, but those results are not actually random.

 

IMO you approach role playing very much like a wargame. You want to be able to create "perfect" characters or powersets that provide a guaranteed result for any given situation. You play and calculate the numbers all the time, which is clear from your numerous commentaries on characters here on the forum. I think it's this very obscession with predictability which is making OIHID so hard for you to swallow. The fact that it's no more abusive in reality than IIF or "Not in Intense Magnetic Field" seems irrelevant to you.

 

Number crunching has its place, but we do mutual storytelling here too. How we give weight to these two aspects of our hobby determines our gaming philosophy.

 

 

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of ASL. It's true that tanks have fixed to kill numbers, but characters in Champions have fixed numbers of dice. Having a 20 to kill number is no different than a character having 12d6 EB. Both have random results depending on the defenses of the opponent.

 

How is a 20 TK vs 14 Armor any different than a 12d6 EB vs 25 Def and 23 Con defender? Both of them have random results that are semi- predictable. It's true that a 20 TK vs a halftrack or other light vehicle with very little armor is a near certain kill, but so is a 12d6 EB vs a 2 ED normal with 10 Con.

 

Why are you so bent on trying to stick a label on me? What makes you think I focus on "perfect" characters? And why are you mentioning IIF as a defense for OIHID when I already stated that I would find an IIF to also be abusive if it also came up as infrequently as OIHID. Once in an entire gaming career.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

So you woud have a problem with a character who has 300 points Act 15- also? That saves a large percentage of the character's points. It seems reasonable to me that a character who has limitations on more powers would naturally save more points.

 

By contrast, a disadvantage generally has fixed effects. Either you can walk, or you can't. Inability to walk does not render other powers (other than bonus running, I suppose) less useful.

 

Yes, I would have a problem with the 300 ps on Act 15-. If nothing more than the sheer number of rolls that would bog down the game.

 

Wouldn't a physical limitation that only operates part of the time still be a Disad? I mean if you're Blind except when the temperature is 100 degrees or higher, it would still be considered a physical limitation wouldn't it? Worth less points than full Blindness of course. How is this conceptually different than a power that doesn't operate under certain rare conditions?

 

 

 

This, to me, is a more cogent issue. The character operates in a binary model. He is either fully powered, or potentially useless. On the other hand, consider a character whose powers "Do not work against automatons". Example: a mentalist (no telekinesis - purely mind-affecting powers) whose defenses have the SFX of subtly influencing the attacker to pull his punch/srike a glancing blow/etc. Some powers have the limitation by default (eg. Ego Blast) and others have an actual limitation (defenses). When faced with an automaton, the character is useless. Should such a character also be banned? Should the cost of mental powers be raised, and the character have a physical limitation of "can't attack automatons" instead?

 

 

The mentallist is still a 350 most of the time. He's probably about a 150 vs automatons. Far different than the person who gets points back by the bucketful and is a 450 most of the time, as opposed to a 50 a small fraction of the time.

 

If the OIHID character was 350 all the time like if it were considered a Disad, then we would be comparing the same thing.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

I already stated that I would find an IIF to also be abusive if it also came up as infrequently as OIHID. Once in an entire gaming career.

 

Gary, I know that I should not be involving myself in what now looks to be a private exchange of flames, but here I am anyway.

 

OIHID will come up as often as the GM chooses, and the GM has all the tools he needs to make this so. However, as always, there is no reason you have to allow it in your games.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

In our last game session, my character's VPP included a Flash and a Drain, both of which acted 15-. He also had an OCV bonus (costs END) which acts 14-. On virtually every phase of a combat that went over two turns, he fired a MPA of the two attack powers using some or all of the bonus OCV. As I recall, he failed one activation roll.

 

The character's VPP requires all powers have a suite of limitations, and attack powers almost always include Act 15-. He also has an activation roll for the ability to change his VPP (this one on a sliding scale starting at 14-). In general, he fails one roll in a game session.

 

To me, he's a lot less vulnerable than a guy whose defenses depend on being in a specific form. [Mind you, his defenses normally come primarily from force fields or walls, so unless he knows it's coming, he's pretty vulnerable too. He does have enough inherent defenses to survive a hit without his extra defenses, but with 30 STUN and 10 DEF, a typical 12d6 EB will just barely KO him unless he has extra defenses. He doesn't have OIHID - he lacks any other form.]

 

 

Having activation rolls on attacks is far less limiting than having it on defenses or movements. An Act 15- on an attack power is typically worth less than 1 OCV unless you're already near certain to hit the target. Having it on defenses is a form of Russian Roulette...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oihid

 

Gary,

I think Treb was trying to point out that Champions is not just a wargame like Squad leader although the combat aspects do, as you pointed out, have some striking similarities.

 

Treb and everyone else who unintentionly turned this debate personal please be mindful that we are here because of mutual interest in a common subject. It can be fun to debate the rules. I have enough stress in other areas of my life and I am sure that most of you do to. I want to come here to have fun debates. Sometimes so I can better understand both sides of the arguments when they might come up during a game. Since I hate wasting game time arguing rules when we could be roleplaying and having a good time!

 

It looks like some people have made up their minds on the matter. Personaly, if I were ever invited to play in a game ran by Gary, I would have no problem making a character that does not have OIHID or IIF if he doesn't want to deal with them in HIS game (I might complain a little at first if I have great concept using one of those limitations but I know that GMing is a LOT of work so I won't begrudge their effort). I have similar feelings on completely different power constructs so It seems fair to me. I try to recognize the fact that it is my personal preference and not push that preference to other board members who may practice different, but equaly valid, styles of roleplaying.

 

Anyway,

Lighten up folks!

It's just a game

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

As an aside' date=' I'd buiild Colossus with a lot of abilities linked to his armor, not with OIHID. However, that's also a -1/4 limitation on everything but the armor, and it has almost identical effects, except that activation of the armor is a zero phase action (ie even faster than switching to hero ID). Under Gary's approach, I assume this would also become a disadvantage, since otherwise it can be used to evade the OIHID restriction on all but one power. [And let's realy be abusive - make that 5 PD armor and buy other defenses as PD, ED and Damage Resistance, Linked to Armor ]

 

 

I'm not even sure it's legal to link stuff to persistent powers. At the very least, it would raise all sorts of warning signs in my head.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

He'll have a few failures' date=' but he will also _always_ have most of his powers. [/quote']

 

Russian Roulette.

 

 

Same character with less disadvantages? Going to have less hooks and quirks. Assuming same player, going to be more boring.

 

A character is only going to be as interesting as the player wants him to be. A player who doesn't want a Disad won't make it interesting anyway. A character with 100 pts of Disads that he wants is going to be more interesting than a character with 150 pts of Disads that he hates.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Gary,

I think Treb was trying to point out that Champions is not just a wargame like Squad leader although the combat aspects do, as you pointed out, have some striking similarities.

 

 

The difference between a wargame and a RPG is that the wargame has fixed objectives, while in the RPG, you choose your own objectives guided by the GM. Also, the RPG is more like cooperative storytelling if done right. After that, the rest is just mechanics.

 

It looks like some people have made up their minds on the matter. Personaly, if I were ever invited to play in a game ran by Gary, I would have no problem making a character that does not have OIHID or IIF if he doesn't want to deal with them in HIS game (I might complain a little at first if I have great concept using one of those limitations but I know that GMing is a LOT of work so I won't begrudge their effort). I have similar feelings on completely different power constructs so It seems fair to me. I try to recognize the fact that it is my personal preference and not push that preference to other board members who may practice different, but equaly valid, styles of roleplaying.

 

Anyway,

Lighten up folks!

It's just a game

 

If you needed a concept to work in my game using a mechanic I dislike, I would help you build the character first using other mechanics. If it couldn't be done and wasn't easy to handwave, I might just give you the extra points if I feel the concept is non-abusive. And I might just give a few extra points to the rest of the players as well.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Oihid

 

Russian Roulette.

 

Hardly. (See? I can do simple, meaningless "answers" too...)

 

A character is only going to be as interesting as the player wants him to be. A player who doesn't want a Disad won't make it interesting anyway. A character with 100 pts of Disads that he wants is going to be more interesting than a character with 150 pts of Disads that he hates.

 

So why have disadvantages at all? Why not just fiat them away? It's not like you NEED them or anything...

 

Do you really think that the disadvantage system is worthless?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Oihid

 

Yes, I would have a problem with the 300 ps on Act 15-. If nothing more than the sheer number of rolls that would bog down the game.

 

What he said "Okay... howbout this. I roll once per phase for everything?".

Or if he had like a randomizer that he could just press a button and tell whether he'd blown the activation, thereby costing no time...

 

Or, or, or... or... or it was a PBeM/PBB game and time wasn't an issue in that sense?

 

Wouldn't a physical limitation that only operates part of the time still be a Disad? I mean if you're Blind except when the temperature is 100 degrees or higher, it would still be considered a physical limitation wouldn't it? Worth less points than full Blindness of course. How is this conceptually different than a power that doesn't operate under certain rare conditions?

 

 

 

The mentallist is still a 350 most of the time. He's probably about a 150 vs automatons. Far different than the person who gets points back by the bucketful and is a 450 most of the time, as opposed to a 50 a small fraction of the time.

 

If the OIHID character was 350 all the time like if it were considered a Disad, then we would be comparing the same thing.

 

Actually, depends on the Mentalist... if they are powerful, then they can easily be more dangerous than 350 would indicate. And if their defenses are "Psionic" (I move myself out of the way by reading their minds)... the Automaton CAN make them as good as 50-75pts.

 

Or the 'desolid AND ATTACK!' characters, who fold like a paper umbrella vs the SFX that hits them.

 

Or an EC based character, who when hit with almost any kind of drain goes sraight to "my powers, my precious powers..."

 

or, or, or...