Gestures and Restrainable

[Gary]

Ok, Steve won't answer this question.

 

Why is Gestures worth -1/4 and Restrainable worth -1/2? What could be used to stop Restrainable that couldn't also stop Gestures?

[OddHat]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

Well, by default, Gestures comes in two flavors: Simple or one handed for -1/4, two handed for -1/2. Rasputin the one-hand-gesturing mage can keep casting his spells even if one of his hands is chopped off, but Irving The Twitchy Two Hander can't. So, in some cases Restrainable might be thought of as the two handed version of Gestures; Athenian can't hold anything in either hand while using her restrainable lasso, but if it were merely Gestures, she could hang onto a fallen foe with one hand and gesture with the other. Doc Strange can keep gesturing one handed for many of his spells even if shot in the shoulder, but Hawkman can't fly if someone hacks a chunk out of one of his wings.

 

How do you handle it?

[Gary]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

Well, by default, Gestures comes in two flavors: Simple or one handed for -1/4, two handed for -1/2. Rasputin the one-hand-gesturing mage can keep casting his spells even if one of his hands is chopped off, but Irving The Twitchy Two Hander can't. So, in some cases Restrainable might be thought of as the two handed version of Gestures; Athenian can't hold anything in either hand while using her restrainable lasso, but if it were merely Gestures, she could hang onto a fallen foe with one hand and gesture with the other. Doc Strange can keep gesturing one handed for many of his spells even if shot in the shoulder, but Hawkman can't fly if someone hacks a chunk out of one of his wings.

 

How do you handle it?

 

Good point.

 

Then again, the description of Restrainable states that claws can take that limitation, when presumably you would have a claw on each hand and could use one if the other hand was grabbed. And it would be even less of a limitation if the character had Extra Limbs.

 

I've mostly played it with the default rules. I'm not sure what would be a good fix, or if a fix is needed. That's why I'm soliciting opinions.

[OddHat]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

Good point.

 

Then again, the description of Restrainable states that claws can take that limitation, when presumably you would have a claw on each hand and could use one if the other hand was grabbed. And it would be even less of a limitation if the character had Extra Limbs.

 

I've mostly played it with the default rules. I'm not sure what would be a good fix, or if a fix is needed. That's why I'm soliciting opinions.

 

Yup, it becomes trickier with Claws. Wolverine's claws are restrainable; grab him and he can't use them, press his fists up against his own body (or someone elses body) and the only way he can extend them is to cut through flesh. On the other hand, they seem less restrainable than Angel's big frickin' wings. Personally, I probably would still let him take it.

 

Edit: Mister Six Stretchy Limbs Claws Guy would have to take the lesser -1/4 version of retrainable if allowed to take it at all. Anyone asking to take Gestures and Restrainable on the same power is asking to have a 0 point limit. Or to have his hollowed, cleaned and steamed skull used as a dice cup. Whichever.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

Well, let's look at two heroes. One, The Weather Witch, has Flight with Gestures (a magic spell), -1/4. Another, Captain Hawk, has Restrainable flight (wings) for -1/2.

 

On Phase 12, both take to the skies. On Phase 3, GlueGuy fires off an area effect entangle, catching both of them. Captain Hawk begins to fall - his wings are gummed up. Weather Witch, however, can stay aloft - she doesn't need to gesture throughout the use of her power. That difference accounts for the -1/4 variance.

 

Needing both hands free to fire an instant power is a -1/2 limitation, so it seems fair that both Restrainable and 2 Handed Gestures are -1/2, so if having 1 hand free is enough, you get only -1/4. Mind you, Wolvy is also restrainable by unusual effects (like magnetics) which prevent his claws from popping in the first place.

 

This begs the question for constant powers, though. Needing 2 handed throughout nets -3/4 with Gestures. Perhaps we should assume both hands (or the equivalent) must be restrained to prevent the -1/2 Restrainable constant power from being used.

[JmOz]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

I think it is important to note that gestures requires the hands/arms, restrainable does not. If I don't have my hands is a bigger limitation than if I don't have my wings...

[OddHat]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

Well, let's look at two heroes. One, The Weather Witch, has Flight with Gestures (a magic spell), -1/4. Another, Captain Hawk, has Restrainable flight (wings) for -1/2.

 

On Phase 12, both take to the skies. On Phase 3, GlueGuy fires off an area effect entangle, catching both of them. Captain Hawk begins to fall - his wings are gummed up. Weather Witch, however, can stay aloft - she doesn't need to gesture throughout the use of her power. That difference accounts for the -1/4 variance.

 

Good point.

[Gary]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

Well, let's look at two heroes. One, The Weather Witch, has Flight with Gestures (a magic spell), -1/4. Another, Captain Hawk, has Restrainable flight (wings) for -1/2.

 

On Phase 12, both take to the skies. On Phase 3, GlueGuy fires off an area effect entangle, catching both of them. Captain Hawk begins to fall - his wings are gummed up. Weather Witch, however, can stay aloft - she doesn't need to gesture throughout the use of her power. That difference accounts for the -1/4 variance.

 

Needing both hands free to fire an instant power is a -1/2 limitation, so it seems fair that both Restrainable and 2 Handed Gestures are -1/2, so if having 1 hand free is enough, you get only -1/4. Mind you, Wolvy is also restrainable by unusual effects (like magnetics) which prevent his claws from popping in the first place.

 

This begs the question for constant powers, though. Needing 2 handed throughout nets -3/4 with Gestures. Perhaps we should assume both hands (or the equivalent) must be restrained to prevent the -1/2 Restrainable constant power from being used.

 

 

All this is true, but I'm not convinced it's worth an additional -1/4 difference between -1/4 Gestures and Restrainable. In actual practice, virtually every Entangle is purchased so that it affects all your limbs, and any Grab vs someone with gestures is going to grab the Gesturing limbs. There aren't many Grabs and Entangles that leaves a free limb to bypass these limitations. And other than Grabs and Entangles, there aren't a lot of ways to stop these limitations.

[Kristopher]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

All this is true, but I'm not convinced it's worth an additional -1/4 difference between -1/4 Gestures and Restrainable. In actual practice, virtually every Entangle is purchased so that it affects all your limbs, and any Grab vs someone with gestures is going to grab the Gesturing limbs. There aren't many Grabs and Entangles that leaves a free limb to bypass these limitations. And other than Grabs and Entangles, there aren't a lot of ways to stop these limitations.

 

There are some other situations. The first thing that comes to mind is, say, someone who needs to use gestures with his mental powers. He's caught up in a bank robbery in his secret ID, and can't mind control the crooks into getting into a fist fight over the split on the take without drawing their attention and risking his secret ID.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

All this is true' date=' but I'm not convinced it's worth an additional -1/4 difference between -1/4 Gestures and Restrainable. In actual practice, virtually every Entangle is purchased so that it affects all your limbs, and any Grab vs someone with gestures is going to grab the Gesturing limbs. There aren't many Grabs and Entangles that leaves a free limb to bypass these limitations. And other than Grabs and Entangles, there aren't a lot of ways to stop these limitations.[/quote']

 

1 handed grab to stop your 2 handed gestures leaves my Brick with a hand free to pummel you (or slap over your mouth so you can't Incant, Mr. Smarty Wizard!). A 2 handed grab, essential to preventing you gesturing with either hand, does not leave me with a free hand.

 

Of course, the question of how many powers you can gesture at the same time also comes into the issue. If you need a full phase and 2 handed gestures, can you use any other power requiring gestures at the same time? 1 handed at least lets you use two at once. I believe that's beyond the written rules, however.

 

Impairing and disabling rules (not all campaigns are for Supers, after all) also eliminate one arm from contention far more often than they elimninate two.

[Gary]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

1 handed grab to stop your 2 handed gestures leaves my Brick with a hand free to pummel you (or slap over your mouth so you can't Incant' date=' Mr. Smarty Wizard!). A 2 handed grab, essential to preventing you gesturing with either hand, does not leave me with a free hand.[/quote']

 

That's worth a little, but not really an additional -1/4. After all, the brick could simply squeeze if he wanted to do damage. It's only if you have Gestures on some powers and Incantations on others that this would apply.

 

 

Of course, the question of how many powers you can gesture at the same time also comes into the issue. If you need a full phase and 2 handed gestures, can you use any other power requiring gestures at the same time? 1 handed at least lets you use two at once. I believe that's beyond the written rules, however.

 

Impairing and disabling rules (not all campaigns are for Supers, after all) also eliminate one arm from contention far more often than they elimninate two.

 

 

Of course it's really easy to avoid this by purchasing Extra Limbs.

 

So is it your opinion that someone with claws like Wolverine should have only a -1/4 Restrainable if he only requires one hand to use his powers?

[OddHat]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

Of course it's really easy to avoid this by purchasing Extra Limbs.

 

At which point it's no longer a limitation, and the GM says "no".

[Gary]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

At which point it's no longer a limitation' date=' and the GM says "no".[/quote']

 

 

That brings up another good question. At what point do you start penalizing people for buying a power to cover a limitation? Clearly a character with a Change Environment Electromagnetic Field is a no-no if his powers only work in Electromagnetic Fields. However, it's perfectly legal to buy up a skill roll on a power with RSR up to a final 17-. And it's perfectly legal to buy as much Luck as you wish even if you have a power that's based on a Luck roll.

 

Where do you draw the line?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

That brings up another good question. At what point do you start penalizing people for buying a power to cover a limitation? Clearly a character with a Change Environment Electromagnetic Field is a no-no if his powers only work in Electromagnetic Fields. However, it's perfectly legal to buy up a skill roll on a power with RSR up to a final 17-. And it's perfectly legal to buy as much Luck as you wish even if you have a power that's based on a Luck roll.

 

Where do you draw the line?

 

Nowhere. However, in regards to the specific cases:

 

1) That would be a "variable limitation" between 'linked' and Only in EMF. If that's still worth points, all well and good...

2a) If he has multiple RSR powers, sure. Gotta loooove cumulative penalties. If he only has the ONE power keying off it, then "a non-limiting limitation is worthless". And base it off Activation, ya piker...

2b) And should someone go the RSR 'start up' route (or similiar)... I have no insurmountable problems retroactively rebuilding a PC to match 'standards or non-brokenness'...

3) Time to pull out the Luck Drains...

[Gary]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

Nowhere. However, in regards to the specific cases:

 

1) That would be a "variable limitation" between 'linked' and Only in EMF. If that's still worth points, all well and good...

2a) If he has multiple RSR powers, sure. Gotta loooove cumulative penalties. If he only has the ONE power keying off it, then "a non-limiting limitation is worthless". And base it off Activation, ya piker...

2b) And should someone go the RSR 'start up' route (or similiar)... I have no insurmountable problems retroactively rebuilding a PC to match 'standards or non-brokenness'...

3) Time to pull out the Luck Drains...

 

 

The default rules and the FAQ state that there is no restriction on how high you can purchase RSR. And common sense says that RSR should allow you a higher final roll than a simple activation roll of equal value. With an activation roll, you're getting the limit straight without any cost or complication. With RSR, you're purchasing a very expensive skill to get your roll that high. A 100 pt power would require a skill costing 29 pts to get a final 17- roll, assuming a 23 Stat that the skill is based on. And you would only save 33 pts from taking this limitation.

 

The best time to use a skill roll is with a Cosmic VPP. A 100 pt cosmic vpp costs 250 pts. If you wanted a final 17- roll, it would cost you 200 pts for the vpp, and 29 pts for the roll, assuming a 23 Stat. You save 21 pts by taking the risk of rolling a 18.

 

The Luck Roll is a much better deal in general if you're playing a Luck based character.

[OddHat]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

However, it's perfectly legal to buy up a skill roll on a power with RSR up to a final 17-. And it's perfectly legal to buy as much Luck as you wish even if you have a power that's based on a Luck roll.

 

Where do you draw the line?

 

Wherever it makes sense to do so, based on the chracter, group, and campaign as a whole.

 

RSR is really a self correcting problem. Sooner or later, even at 17 or less, the character is going to blow the roll. By spending the points to buy up that Magic skill (or whatever) the character is already getting less of a savings. You can always set a skill cap in your campaign, or rule that any roll of 16 or greater is a failure no matter what the character's skill level.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

So is it your opinion that someone with claws like Wolverine should have only a -1/4 Restrainable if he only requires one hand to use his powers?

 

This would be a reaosnable means of dovetailing Restrainable and Gestures. Restrainable is commonly used for wings, and fouling only one wing won't leave a flyer a lot of options. Needing only one hand free, rather than two, is a different and less limiting limitation.

 

It might also be appropriate to buy an extra d6 of HKA (say) with the two handed Restrainable limitation, indicating a more powerful two handed strike.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

For the little it may be worth, I think that there is not too much point in trying to get it too right, because the level of the limitation is not independent of the rest of the character.

 

An example: The Cosmic Rod , a staff like OAF is wielded by Little Timmy. Little Timmy has a DEX of 8 due to his bad leg, and a strength of 5 because he is so little. Taking it off him is easy.

 

Mighty Morph has the Cosmic Rod . He has 35 DEX and 75 Strength. Just how accessable is the Cosmic Rod now?

 

...but they both get the +1 bonus. Arguably they shouldn't, but, and trust me on this one my children, that way lies only madness.

[spaceprincessecho]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

That's worth a little' date=' but not really an additional -1/4. After all, the brick could simply squeeze if he wanted to do damage. It's only if you have Gestures on some powers and Incantations on others that this would apply.[/quote']

 

Well, yes, but a squeeze doesn't allow you to add your +10d6 HA Wizard-Destroying Fist manoeuvre.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

The default rules and the FAQ state that there is no restriction on how high you can purchase RSR. And common sense says that RSR should allow you a higher final roll than a simple activation roll of equal value. With an activation roll, you're getting the limit straight without any cost or complication. With RSR, you're purchasing a very expensive skill to get your roll that high. A 100 pt power would require a skill costing 29 pts to get a final 17- roll, assuming a 23 Stat that the skill is based on. And you would only save 33 pts from taking this limitation.

 

The best time to use a skill roll is with a Cosmic VPP. A 100 pt cosmic vpp costs 250 pts. If you wanted a final 17- roll, it would cost you 200 pts for the vpp, and 29 pts for the roll, assuming a 23 Stat. You save 21 pts by taking the risk of rolling a 18.

 

The Luck Roll is a much better deal in general if you're playing a Luck based character.

 

Correct. The rules do not limit how high you can buy the skill roll. However, it is ALSO stated that non-limiting limitations are not worth points... and these are NOT mutually contradictory. It's entirely possible to have a 100- Skill, and an RSR power based off it, that is limited. It's also possible to have an 11- skill roll and a power that is NOT limited by it. (Power has concentration and character has overall skill levels)

 

More to the point, it is NOT limiting them to buy up the skill roll. Skills are inherently useful. High Skill Rolls are ALSO inherently useful. So no, the "reduced savings" argument would never fly. Just because you chose to spend the points rebated on a high skill (which WILL be useful independent of the RSR power), does not mean you are not taking a '-1/2 limitation that is not limiting'.

 

In the game, there are many things which are more effective if you have other things. This is not a problem; if it were, that would be too bad, because it's almost insoluble.

[Gary]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

Correct. The rules do not limit how high you can buy the skill roll. However, it is ALSO stated that non-limiting limitations are not worth points... and these are NOT mutually contradictory. It's entirely possible to have a 100- Skill, and an RSR power based off it, that is limited. It's also possible to have an 11- skill roll and a power that is NOT limited by it. (Power has concentration and character has overall skill levels)

 

More to the point, it is NOT limiting them to buy up the skill roll. Skills are inherently useful. High Skill Rolls are ALSO inherently useful. So no, the "reduced savings" argument would never fly. Just because you chose to spend the points rebated on a high skill (which WILL be useful independent of the RSR power), does not mean you are not taking a '-1/2 limitation that is not limiting'.

 

In the game, there are many things which are more effective if you have other things. This is not a problem; if it were, that would be too bad, because it's almost insoluble.

 

 

It depends on what the skill is. Magic skill 25- might be extremely useful outside of its pool changing use in general, but Metamorph 25- probably isn't. And something like Artist 25- to change a Summon power or VPP is of marginal use outside of the RSR, especially at that skill level.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

Getting back to the subject, a power might even have both Gestures and Restrainable. Like a "Grow Wings" spell. I have to Gesture to work the spell, I can't cast it if my hands are tied. Once I've cast it, my wings are Restrainable.

 

Come to think of it, there is a problem with restrainable, especially for movement powers. Aren't they all restrainable in some way, by default? After all, I can't Run if my legs are Restrained, any more than I could fly with my wings Restrained, and the same holds true for swimming, leaping, etc. I'm starting to think that Restrainable should be default for movement powers, and you should have to buy Non-Restrainable for a +1/2 Advantage. This would represent say, instead of moving your legs to run, you flow along the ground like a liquid, or instead of flapping wings to fly, you simply rise into the air telekinetically, etc.

 

This is just an idea off the top of my head, and may not make any sense once I've had more sleep. But don't dismiss it out of hand just because it's a radical idea and a change to the system!

[Gary]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

Getting back to the subject, a power might even have both Gestures and Restrainable. Like a "Grow Wings" spell. I have to Gesture to work the spell, I can't cast it if my hands are tied. Once I've cast it, my wings are Restrainable.

 

Come to think of it, there is a problem with restrainable, especially for movement powers. Aren't they all restrainable in some way, by default? After all, I can't Run if my legs are Restrained, any more than I could fly with my wings Restrained, and the same holds true for swimming, leaping, etc. I'm starting to think that Restrainable should be default for movement powers, and you should have to buy Non-Restrainable for a +1/2 Advantage. This would represent say, instead of moving your legs to run, you flow along the ground like a liquid, or instead of flapping wings to fly, you simply rise into the air telekinetically, etc.

 

This is just an idea off the top of my head, and may not make any sense once I've had more sleep. But don't dismiss it out of hand just because it's a radical idea and a change to the system!

 

 

That's a good point. Why should Hawkman get -1/2 for his flight while Flash or Quicksilver has to pay full points for his running? Hawkman's wings could be grabbed or entangled, but so could a runner's legs.

 

I wonder how we can get teleport into the mix if we say that Non-Restrainable is a 1/2 advantage?

[OddHat]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

That's a good point. Why should Hawkman get -1/2 for his flight while Flash or Quicksilver has to pay full points for his running? Hawkman's wings could be grabbed or entangled, but so could a runner's legs.

 

I wonder how we can get teleport into the mix if we say that Non-Restrainable is a 1/2 advantage?

 

Flight is not restrainable in the vast majority of cases in comics; that's one of its built in advantages. Hawkman is getting his bonus because his wings are effectively a focus (note the wording of the limit, which indicates that you should not usually have both Restrainable and Focus on the same power, but that Wing Harnesses may be an exception).

 

Myself, I've always hated allowing Restrainable as a limit on Cyberware. Most super powers can be eliminated given a lab table and a really sharp knife, but only Cyberware gets the bonus. The explanation that it's also vulnerable to a few specific type of attack (EMPs and such) never sat well with me.

[Gary]

Re: Gestures and Restrainable

 

Flight is not restrainable in the vast majority of cases in comics; that's one of its built in advantages. Hawkman is getting his bonus because his wings are effectively a focus (note the wording of the limit, which indicates that you should not usually have both Restrainable and Focus on the same power, but that Wing Harnesses may be an exception).

 

Myself, I've always hated allowing Restrainable as a limit on Cyberware. Most super powers can be eliminated given a lab table and a really sharp knife, but only Cyberware gets the bonus. The explanation that it's also vulnerable to a few specific type of attack (EMPs and such) never sat well with me.

 

 

That's true in comic book terms. But it seems strange that Flight should be inherently non-restrainable whereas Running is inherently restrainable most of the time unless you have a funky conception such as being a big ball who rolls around.