OddHat Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: Gestures and Restrainable That's true in comic book terms. But it seems strange that Flight should be inherently non-restrainable whereas Running is inherently restrainable most of the time unless you have a funky conception such as being a big ball who rolls around. Eh. This is a Heroic Fantasy game. You can think of it as partially offset by the fact that you get your first 6" of running for free. Running is inherently 12 points cheaper than Flight, but gets Restrainable by default. Still, (Human) Flight and T-Port are not restrainable by default in the fiction where they appear, and that fiction is what Hero simulates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: Gestures and Restrainable Eh. This is a Heroic Fantasy game. You can think of it as partially offset by the fact that you get your first 6" of running for free. Running is inherently 12 points cheaper than Flight' date=' but gets Restrainable by default.[/quote'] No turn mode either, and it doesn't increase the knockback you take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesuji Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: Gestures and Restrainable Why is Gestures worth -1/4 and Restrainable worth -1/2? because the GM will have more "problem situations" come up for the -1/2 than for the -1/4, because the limitation taken was bigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: Gestures and Restrainable That's true in comic book terms. But it seems strange that Flight should be inherently non-restrainable whereas Running is inherently restrainable most of the time unless you have a funky conception such as being a big ball who rolls around. Well, Running has a few freebies added on to it. Sure, it loses the whole 'third dimension', but it does have gains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: Gestures and Restrainable It depends on what the skill is. Magic skill 25- might be extremely useful outside of its pool changing use in general' date=' but Metamorph 25- probably isn't. And something like Artist 25- to change a Summon power or VPP is of marginal use outside of the RSR, especially at that skill level.[/quote'] Metamorph 25- : Apparently you know almost everything about shapeshifting. It would be 'fair' to apply this as (perhaps) a bonus to PER rolls to spot shapeshifters, or to help train others in using their shapeshifting, or as a complementary skill to shapeshifting suppressants/enhancers, or, or, or... Artist 25- : You are an unbelievably skillful artist. Perhaps you can draw blindfolded, or with your teeth, or well enough to win the "draw-off" vs the Greek God Of Artistry (if there is one. )... more to the point, surely linking this to a _power_ implies some degree of control over magic (or psionics, or whatever your SFX is). And _any_ power skill lets you try 'tricks' that would normally be outside your abilities. So no, I stand by the notion that "needing" a 25- roll is not actually a limiting factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: Gestures and Restrainable That's true in comic book terms. But it seems strange that Flight should be inherently non-restrainable whereas Running is inherently restrainable most of the time unless you have a funky conception such as being a big ball who rolls around. You are getting too caught up in the terminology. Running = Ground Movement If I am playing Inchy the Inch Worm, I have 10" of Running...but no legs. I squiggle fast. I am not restrainable by default. If my powered armour character has a jet pack or jet boots those are also not restrainable. Christopher R Taylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: Gestures and Restrainable You are getting too caught up in the terminology. Running = Ground Movement If I am playing Inchy the Inch Worm, I have 10" of Running...but no legs. I squiggle fast. I am not restrainable by default. If my powered armour character has a jet pack or jet boots those are also not restrainable. That isn't quite the point. If I am playing Leggy the Running Guy, I have 10" of Running...with legs. I run fast. I *am* restrainable by default. And yet Inchy and Leggy both pay the same amount for their Running, restrainable or not. If I need wings, I can take Restrainable on my Flight, but if I need my legs, I can't take Restrainable on my Running. Or can I? I've never seen a published character who did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: Gestures and Restrainable That isn't quite the point. If I am playing Leggy the Running Guy, I have 10" of Running...with legs. I run fast. I *am* restrainable by default. And yet Inchy and Leggy both pay the same amount for their Running, restrainable or not. If I need wings, I can take Restrainable on my Flight, but if I need my legs, I can't take Restrainable on my Running. Or can I? I've never seen a published character who did. Flighty the Flying Guy paid 20 points for hi 10" flight. Leggy paid 8 for his 10" of running. Flighty takes 1d6 more KB from every attack and has trouble turning (thanks Hugh). Leggy has fewer problems with KB and turning. All in all, it evens out. If Flighty takes big wings, ha can make them restrainable, as he now has what amounts to a focus. If Leggy has extra running through a pair of extra legs, he could probably take restrainable on that as well. Thinking about it, restrainable flight also means crashing to the ground if you ge entangled mid-air; the built in restrainable of running does not. A person with Flight and Running has two modes of movement, and loses one when entangled, or both if he has restrainable; a person who only has running and gets entangled loses only one mode of movement. Restrainable is more of a limit for Flighty, and is therefore worth points. It's a limit on a free or discounted power for Leggy, and therefore is probably worth nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: Gestures and Restrainable Fine, but again, that isn't quite the point. Flighty and Leggy are different cases and so Restrainable can be applied to one but not the other. But what about Leggy and Inchy? They both paid the same 8 points for their Running, but Leggy's is Restrainable and Inchy's isn't. Should Leggy get a Limitation, or should Inchy pay for an Advantage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: Gestures and Restrainable Fine, but again, that isn't quite the point. Flighty and Leggy are different cases and so Restrainable can be applied to one but not the other. But what about Leggy and Inchy? They both paid the same 8 points for their Running, but Leggy's is Restrainable and Inchy's isn't. Should Leggy get a Limitation, or should Inchy pay for an Advantage? Both Leggy and Inchy lose one mode of movement when entangled, so long as the special effets of the Entangle can entangle Inchy at all. So, since neither is more limited than the other, I'd say that the costs should be about the same. There are some SFX based differences in the characters, but IMO they're too minor to worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: Gestures and Restrainable I feel like I'm talking to a wall here. No one can move when they are Entangled, regardless of their movement types or whether they are Restrainable. If I have legs you can stop me from running by grabbing my legs. If I move on the ground by rolling because I'm a spherical shape, I have no legs for you to grab. Likewise if I'm a blob and I move by oozing along the ground. The most obvious, default form of ground movement is restrainable, but other forms of ground movement are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: Gestures and Restrainable I feel like I'm talking to a wall here. No one can move when they are Entangled' date=' regardless of their movement types or whether they are Restrainable.[/quote'] It depends on the SFX of the Entangle. If the Entangle is a pair of handcuffs, you can still run or fly, unless I've handcuffed you to something. Some other entangles (Ice Bonds, etc) probably shouldn't stop some forms of Flight, depending on SFX. More of the whole 0 point advantages and limits issue. If I have legs you can stop me from running by grabbing my legs. If I move on the ground by rolling because I'm a spherical shape, I have no legs for you to grab. Likewise if I'm a blob and I move by oozing along the ground. The most obvious, default form of ground movement is restrainable, but other forms of ground movement are not. I can still stop you from running if you're a blob by grabbing you. I just cant stop you by shooting you in the leg; a 0 point benefit you gain from having no legs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: Gestures and Restrainable I feel like I'm talking to a wall here. No one can move when they are Entangled, regardless of their movement types or whether they are Restrainable. If I have legs you can stop me from running by grabbing my legs. If I move on the ground by rolling because I'm a spherical shape, I have no legs for you to grab. Likewise if I'm a blob and I move by oozing along the ground. The most obvious, default form of ground movement is restrainable, but other forms of ground movement are not. All depends on SFX. I completely understand and agree with you. In my mind, I was thinking of "entangle" I was thinking more of the energy bands around someone's torso (or handcuffs)...which obviously would not stop them from running (given the understanding that it is still hard to run if you can't move your arms). If you are caught in a glue-blob entangle, no movement (except TP) would be possible. It would be hard to entangle AmoebaBoy. You would need some kind of encompassing SFX (a power globe or something), but that would be true of almost any kind of shape shiftery character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsbrehm Posted August 30 Report Share Posted August 30 (edited) I see this question was 20 years ago... But today in 6th edition "Restrainable" on a power can turn it off, not just keep it from starting. (The wings example, or a shock-wave force field on a speedster that turns off if they can't move, i.e. get grabbed or entangled.) Gestures is one or two hands only to activate and then can't be stopped after the fact, as in a defensive spell. If you have to keep making gestures throughout the entire use of a constant power then its worth twice the ammount. ( -1.) Edited August 30 by rsbrehm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley Teriaca Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 Gestures and Restrainable are two different limitations. Gestures means you have to move something a certain way. The only ways to stop a power with Gestures is to somehow stop that limb (entangled, grabbed, an area which is so small to move it...). Restrainable is similar, but more stricter. And you don't need to 'move' something in an obvious ritual way. Ok. Thinking about it it is the same limitation in another name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 (edited) Quote Why is Gestures worth -1/4 and Restrainable worth -1/2? What could be used to stop Restrainable that couldn't also stop Gestures? Because it takes less to stop a Restrainable ability. Gestures can be worth ½ if you make it as limited. Let me explain. Restrainable is like having wings, if you stop one wing from working or even limit its movement... you stop flying. Gestures can be done with either hand: tie one hand behind my back I can still gesture. If you take "gestures with both hands" then you're at the same limitation level, and the same degree of limitation. Edited September 4 by Christopher R Taylor LoneWolf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 Restrainable can also be for things that can disabled by other means. The example given in the book is cyberwar that can be damaged to temporarily disable it. Gestures also only required to start a constant power. If you need to gesture throughout a constant power its value is doubled which again brings the value equal to restrainable. By combining this with requires two hand it can bring the value higher than restrainable. So, while they are similar each one has things that if combined would make things very complicated to figure out. Christopher R Taylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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