Speeding things up

[Kirby]

Re: Speeding things up

 

Ok' date=' I don't want to actually change any rules. But I have considered an alternate speed chart....[/quote']

Hmm, I'd be concerned it would make things overcomplicated, (EVERYONE would be going on 10-12, probably) but try it once or twice.

 

Another consideration is considering all actions in a segment simultaneous' date=' regardless of dex. Of course sometimes that can break.[/quote']

Well, technically they are, with just milisecond differences. I would be worried that the players may deduce that DEX isn't *as* important as it once was, and not buy it up as much.

 

 

I think I might also try to work up even more pre-rolled stuff for the bad guys. Like for major villians having a nice chart with pre rolled hit and effect rolls for all their powers.

Good idea. Write down whatever DCV they hit and the damage regardless, because you don't know if villain X will be up against Speedster Sally or Brick Bob.

 

 

Skill levels, stun, body, end.

 

I have noticed in my game we don't have a good enough way to keep track of these items.

WHAT?? This ain't stone-age RPGing any more, man. Pencils & paper! Have each person bring their own, or buy some for the group. If all else fails, they can write on their own character sheets!

 

 

Also' date=' it would be great if I could train my players to call out what DCV they hit.[/quote']

Kill your players in a nice, friendly way if they don't do this! They should already be telling you this stuff. We always said "I have a 8 OCV, rolled a 10, hit a 9 DCV. Or, sometimes, the GM would just say, "Panterra has a 12 DCV, roll to hit."

 

For that matter it would be great if my players sat in order of DEX!

Well, don't stifle the socialization, but try it sometime.

 

*TROGDOR PUNCH EVERYONE!! (Speedster power): Area effect radius on str. Selective' date=' double radius.[/quote']

Oh, on an area effect attack, wouldn't you just roll to "hit the hex" as opposed to each character's DCV? (When you gave the JL BA & Grond example.)

[paigeoliver]

Re: Speeding things up

 

On a selective attack in 4th ed you technically first make an attack roll to target the area, which I nicely ignore, since an OCV 10 speedster isn't gonna be missing that roll, and then you are supposed to make a separate hit roll for each character in the area of effect that you want to punch. We usually just simplify it to one hit roll, and use that same roll against everyone.

 

As for stun body and end, there is way too much scribbling on character sheet margins and "remembering" and not enough having a special thing for it.

[Kirby]

Re: Speeding things up

 

On a selective attack in 4th ed you technically first make an attack roll to target the area' date=' which I nicely ignore, since an OCV 10 speedster isn't gonna be missing that roll, and then you are supposed to make a separate hit roll for each character in the area of effect that you want to punch. We usually just simplify it to one hit roll, and use that same roll against everyone.[/quote']

I see. My bad. I'm not familiar enough with the "selective" part. I thought maybe you just got to choose who was hit initially, but the Hex DCV was the same for them all.

 

 

As for stun body and end' date=' there is way too much scribbling on character sheet margins and "remembering" and not enough having a special thing for it.[/quote']

Well, maybe on the front (though I always did mine there, on the 4th Ed sheets), but the backs should be blank, unless they got all high-tech and printed on both sides.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Speeding things up

 

No, no, I said keep SPD relative. I tell my players they can have between 3 and 6 but if they pick 6 they have to have some form of super SPD/reflexes or such in their conception to justify it. 3s are usually heavy hitters and I encourage them to bump it up to 4 unless their concept is slow and strong.

 

What I find this does, is keep everyone involved and the momentum moving forward. If you have a super speedster with a SPD of 9 than the brick with a 4 is going to get sleepy while this guy runs around in circles. I just like everyone to have equal turns so no one wonders off. If we need a break, we all take a break together. Before I did this, slow characters would go to the bathroom, grab a drink, whatever and it amazed me how these guys could have twenty to thirty minutes to plan their next action and still say "huh?" when I call thier name. So I basically adopted a turn based combat system that still uses the SPD chart and has a little room for variation. I swear it sped up combat at least %100. It made it more fun, too. My group may have been a little extreme, though, that example I gave above was true. Except the speedster was SPD 10 and he wasn't a speedster, he was a ripoff of Ash from Evil Dead. After that, I decided to come up with some strict rules for SPD because min/maxing SPD is a gamebreaker.

 

I was actually reacting to HoustonGm's advice...

[Rapier]

Re: Speeding things up

 

A lot of the speed-em-up stuff I do comes down to prep...and I tend to burn through office supplies...but heck, isn't that half of why you go to work? It's not like my last three raises were anything to notice. Most of my prep work comes down to removing the math equation. Not that it takes long to do 11 + 7 - 6, but you don't need to spend them time at all...and sometimes your brain just seizes.

 

1) I prepare a spreadsheet/chart with all characters names across both axes. Y axis is attack, X axis is defender. Want to know if Villain McEvil hits the JusticeLad? VMcE is on row 4, JL is on column D...4D has a 13 so VMcE needs a 13 or less to hit. I keep all characters on each axis because you never know when you might need to hit a teammember. As an aside, you can use a sticky and put all this info on the villain's character sheet (both what he needs to hit someone and what that someone needs to hit them).

 

2) I have a paper cutter (very handy to have around btw) that I use to cut 3x5 index cards in half. In the unlined side I put the phase # and on the lined side I write the characters that act that phase (in dex order) and list their DEX (just in case someone wants to Lightnin Reflex, hold etc). I also use cardboard minis so I have some of the Steve Jackson cardboard mini stands. These are SWEET because I can stick the SPD card in the holder (I actually use 11 ... noone goes on Phase 1) and stick him out on the table so that the players can see what phase it is and I look at the back with the action order on it.

 

3) Pre-Rolls. Either create an excel spreadsheet to do it, use one of the online utilities to do it or just grab some dice...however you do it pre-roll as many as possible. Its a lot easier to read off the score from a page than it is to count dice (no matter how fast you are). Give the players the option of using pre-rolls (but most players LIKE to roll dice and count) but there is no reason for you to spend the time doing it. You can also use a Palm Pilot or Laptop die roller...but I've found that those are not the time saver that pre-rolls are. Although if there was one with a real simple interface....but I digress.

 

4) Don't allow open held actions. If someone wants to hold an action, they must announce what they are holding for (Acceptable: "I'm holding my action to shoot the first agent that sticks his head around the corner." Unacceptable: "I'm holding my action.") Player's get 5 second to declare an action (don't allow them to count hexes pre-declaration, unless they have absolute range sense). If they have nothing push them to the end of the phase to think. If they still don't have anything thought up, they go defensive (full dodge/block)

 

5) No adjustment powers. Adjustment powers are a pain in the ass. Likewise absolutely no SPD changes. I always thought voluntary SPD changes were munchkiny to begin with.

 

6) Use a tape measure. If you use a 1" hex map, this is real easy. Instead of counting hexes for range (which takes time) whip out a lil bitty cheapy Home Depot tape measure (they are 99 cents in a big bin by the cash register and are like 6' or 10' long).

 

7) Make sure all players and villains have their characters in sheet protectors. These can be written on with greasepencil or overhead markers. This lets you put info right on the sheet, no more looking for loose bits of paper.

 

8) Slim down the villains sheets. While every opponent should have a full character sheet, you don't always need the full enchilada. A good combat record sheet will list combat details (OCV, DCV, Levels, Mvmt and main attack). This drastically reduces the "oh what to do."

 

9) No multi-distribulatory levels. OCV levels are fine, but any level that can be moved between OCV and DCV can be a pain in the ass. Stick with straight up levels and don't concern yourself with moving them around. THey are villains instead of 4 levels that can be either OCV or DCV give them 2 of each and be done with it.

 

10) Familiarity. Be very familiar with the villains and players character sheets, obviously.

 

11) If there are NPC friends (as opposed to NPC foes) dish them out to the most capable players to play. Takes work off you table.

 

12) -1 Stun on an NPC is GMs Option. Likewise, NPCs don't take recoveries. They are always 100% balls-to-the-wall dedicated to kicking some hero ass...at least until they flee screaming like schoolgirls.

 

13) Plan out likely NPC actions ahead of time. Does this group have tactics they use (eg fastball special). Makes notes (in greasepencil) on the NPC character sheet and highlight Disads etc that are going to stear the character's actions. If villain A hates bird-people overwrite the sheet with "Attack Hawkman 1st."

 

14) Is there someone in the group that wants to learn to GM? Got someone that might want to become a player but doesn't know the system real well? Stick them behind the screen and split the grunt work with them. They will get good knowledge and practice, and you get a few less gray hairs.

 

15) You've got your GM screen now. Don't look anything up in the book. Use what's on your GM screen. If its not there make a snap decision. If it turns out to be wrong/ill advised give the offended player an extra XP or two and tell him to shut the hell up.

 

That's about all I can think of off the top of my head. Bed time!

 

If you really want to speed up combat, you need to get your house in order. I've played in lots of games over the years and even though we bitch and moan and blame it on the players, it all really comes down to us GMs. If someone doens't know what they are going to do for an action, maybe they are not engaged in the game (our fault). Each player usually has 1 character to worry about, while the GM has all the NPCs, the environment, the plot and character guiding to do. Of course, the GM is going to be the bottleneck. How could it possibly be otherwise? So the best way to speed up combat is to automate or decrease the amount of work you have to do.

[The Horror]

Re: Speeding things up

 

What do you guys think of this?

 

 

The Horror

[Silbeg]

Re: Speeding things up

 

4) Don't allow open held actions. If someone wants to hold an action, they must announce what they are holding for (Acceptable: "I'm holding my action to shoot the first agent that sticks his head around the corner." Unacceptable: "I'm holding my action.") Player's get 5 second to declare an action (don't allow them to count hexes pre-declaration, unless they have absolute range sense). If they have nothing push them to the end of the phase to think. If they still don't have anything thought up, they go defensive (full dodge/block)

[/Quote]

While i understand the argument, for most games this would be a dramatic change in rules. I know my players would rebel...

7) Make sure all players and villains have their characters in sheet protectors. These can be written on with greasepencil or overhead markers. This lets you put info right on the sheet, no more looking for loose bits of paper.

Now that I have a Mondo-Mat (the monstrous 5'X8' battle mat from Chessex), my players have taken keeping track of this stuff on the battle mat. Now, I just need to make sure that the pens they grab are vis-a-vis, rather than a sharpie. I recall an incident from 15 years ago, with a Huey that got drawn on the battle map. Thanks to our efforts to remove it, that area of the mat has no hexes but still has the Huey.

8) Slim down the villains sheets. While every opponent should have a full character sheet, you don't always need the full enchilada. A good combat record sheet will list combat details (OCV, DCV, Levels, Mvmt and main attack). This drastically reduces the "oh what to do."

Or, perhaps more dramatically... keep the villains simple. While having overly complicated villains makes them interesting powers-wise, you rarely get to use the "cool" power. Just last weekend, I created a character who was possessed by an earth elemental, and as a signature power, I gave him an Entangle Damage shield. However, by the time that he was in HtH range, I realized he didn't have the 5END/phase to run it, and still remain effective in combat. Sometimes simple is better.

10) Familiarity. Be very familiar with the villains and players character sheets, obviously.

 

11) If there are NPC friends (as opposed to NPC foes) dish them out to the most capable players to play. Takes work off you table.

Yes, and Yes!!! Whenever possible, I do this. There are certain players in the group I tend to burden with this, but the NPC heroes are frequent guest stars in the game, to they know what the capabilities are (mostly my version of the character Starwell from one of the 4E Enemies books, can't recall which).

12) -1 Stun on an NPC is GMs Option. Likewise, NPCs don't take recoveries. They are always 100% balls-to-the-wall dedicated to kicking some hero ass...at least until they flee screaming like schoolgirls.

This is usually a good idea, anyways. There is nothing less heroic than the heroes blasting the downed villains "just one more time to make sure they are really out". Comic book heroes don't perform a coup de grace, neither should Champions heroes (villains may be another story... )

15) You've got your GM screen now. Don't look anything up in the book. Use what's on your GM screen. If its not there make a snap decision. If it turns out to be wrong/ill advised give the offended player an extra XP or two and tell him to shut the hell up.

Other tools: create a cheat sheet of those things missing on the shield, have players look up rules while you continue. Also, it is always a good idea to be at least as familiar with the rules as your best player... not always possible, but helps.

 

Thanks for the great ideas, Rapier... just had to comment on a few, myself.

Made me think about a few things (such as the "clever ideas" I tend to come up with... which rarely work out as well as I thought).

 

later!

[Silbeg]

Re: Speeding things up

 

What do you guys think of this?

Kind of a pseudo-standard effect chart? Unless you are assuming that BODY = # of dice rolled, you should have a column for BODY.

 

One other thing that could be useful... but requires multiple colors of dice in a set...

 

1 color for 3d6 "to-hit" roll

1 color for xd6 damage

1 color (if needed) for KA StunX die

1 color for 1/2 die (if needed)

1 color for KB dice (perhaps an additional color for the annoying clinging character)

 

Roll 'em all at once... if you don't hit, it don't matter... if you do, you have all the dice rolled already. If you are being sneaky, it also helps to hide the number of dice really being rolled!!!

[The Horror]

Re: Speeding things up

 

Kind of a pseudo-standard effect chart? Unless you are assuming that BODY = # of dice rolled, you should have a column for BODY.

 

Pretty much yes. I figured something like this could save a lot of time when rolling for damage dealt by bad guys. Just use BODY dealt = # dice rolled, and roll a d10 on the chart for the stun damage.

 

Players could use it as well of course. There is less than 5% chance that a roll will come up beyond the maximum or under the lowest value on that table. If players feel like speeding things up, the chart could be kind of handy.

 

 

The Horror

[Eyendasky80]

Re: Speeding things up

 

I was actually reacting to HoustonGm's advice...

 

Whoops. Sorry.

[Harakani]

Re: Speeding things up

 

An idea I got off these very boards is the "intiative deck". It is a bit complex, and takes up this post. If you don't like it, skip to the next post.

 

I started using it in one game, and now use it in all my games.

Idea was originally to get rid of the speed chart - wasn't intended to speed the game up, but I find it does have that effect.

 

Oh, it also almost gets rid of the idea of Dex for init.

 

Every character gets a number of cards equal to their SPD, shuffled into the deck. (I keep generic NPC cards, like "goon 1, SPD 1", "goon 1, SPD2".

There is also a recovery card.

 

I used to have segment cards, but they slow stuff down and none of my players use segment-based powers.

 

I then hand this deck over to a player. The player shuffles the cards, and turns them over one by one.

When a card is turned over, that character can take an action. If it is the recovery card, everyone recovers as per post-phase 12.

Once the character has taken their action, their card goes to the "discard" pile.

When all of the cards have been drawn, the Turn is over. The cards are shuffled and a new Turn begins.

 

HOLDING

Anyone can "hold" a card when it is drawn. There's no penalty, and they can use their action at any time another card is about to be drawn.

If two characters want to use a held action at the same time, highest Dex goes first. The other action is considered to still be held (they don't have to use it next)

If a player is holding an action card when their next card is drawn, they lose the card they are holding (but can hold the next card).

If you are holding your card when the deck runs out, you can keep holding your card, but it is not shuffled into the deck.

This is unfair to those who hold, I deliberately wanted to encourage people to act now, while keeping hold as a possibility.

 

ABORTING

you take your action now, but the next action of yours drawn (can even be on the next turn) is discarded - you use that action now.

 

DELAYED EFFECT

If the card takes an extra phase, you have to draw and use another action. If it takes an extra segment, (and you aren't using segments), then it is until your next action is drawn (but you do not use that action).

This is the bit I am least happy with.

 

EFFECTS

The effects are

No one knows when their next turn will be, so it is much harder to game the system.

Characters sometimes get multiple actions in a row. This means (for instance) that if A stuns B, A may recover from being stunned, attack and attack again before B gets another action, even if they have the same SPD. This acts like the stun lottery and tends to shorten combats by increasing the standard deviation of damage.

No one ever forgets their go.

No one asks when their next go will be.

People do not wander off because they are playing the brick in a party of speedsters and they just had their action.

 

Harakani

[Rapier]

Re: Speeding things up

 

An idea I got off these very boards is the "intiative deck". It is a bit complex, and takes up this post. If you don't like it, skip to the next post.

 

I started using it in one game, and now use it in all my games.

 

[snip]

 

Hmm. That is pretty interesting. Lasting effects, as you said, could be a problem. Definately, something for further thought.

[Harakani]

Re: Speeding things up

 

Other advice I have taken (and some of this is reiterating what other people said here, but hey, it means two people found it useful)

 

* Try to minimise optional rules. Eg the hit location table is great, but it is an extra roll and an extra lookup.

* Try to minimise lookups and rolls. Try to streamline how many lookups and rolls you have to make, especially for commonly used attacks or powers. if someone wants 4 types of armour with different activation rolls, just say no.

* Print a character sheet with a lot of the combat maneuvers and options on it.

* I have little index cards with summaries of wierd rules (like presence attacks, mind control and so forth) this makes them easier to look up, and I have a page ref on the cards if necessary.

* Learn the rules. Failing that, learn to fake it.

* Learn to count dice; group by 10s, or look for 1's and 6's (depending on what you are looking for). Then make your players learn.

* Killing attacks are your friend. A 12 DC attack only needs 5 dice rolled... 4 for the Body and 1 for the Stun. Multiplication is faster than addition. if it wasn't for having to train people in how to add DCs, I'd consider house ruling normal attacks to use dice like killing attacks.

* Increase Standard Deviation. 4 attacks that all do 30 +/-5 STUN are nowhere near as effective at taking someone down as 4 attacks that do 30 +/-30 STUN. Highly random damage (like say, the stun lottery) is far more likely to put a lot of damage past armour, causing a K/O or at least a Stunned. Plus it is more cinematic (attacks are either pointless or earthshaking... you don't nickel-and-dime someone to death). Be warned this will bug your players.

* Conversely, the standard effect rules are your friend. If you don't want the drama of players in terror of dice rolls, use standard effect. A good candidate for these are things like adjustment powers; don't write down "this drain drains 2d6 CP of Ego", write it "drains 3 Ego points". Another good candidate is any power that ignores defences, like NND.

* If you can trust your players, make them do any jobs you can to speed things up... looking up rules, counting dice, helping new players, handling initiative... whatever.

* EITHER Use a sketch map on A3 paper. That way people round the table can see it. Scale will be a bit rough though.

*OR Use a grid map prepared BEFOREHAND with counters/minis for characters.

*Work out what people find difficult, and change it. The best known example is OCV/DCV. People have trouble subtracting for some reason, so now I use: Defender's DCV is +10. Attacker rolls 3d6+OCV. If Attacker rolls > defender's DCV, attack is a hit. Addition and comparison are easier than subtraction. 10 is a very easy number to add. (Plus, people who've played D&D3e are used to this system.)

 

Good Luck...

Harakani

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Speeding things up

 

It's probably been said before, but every GM's and Player's best friend is knowledge. Nothing slows a game down like 'How does that work' or 'How do I compute that'. For example, having all your stat rolls (DEX roll, etc) on the character sheet helps a lot. The more you (and your players) know the rules, the faster things will go.

 

Also, if feasible, keeping the power level low is helpful. It just takes less TIME to count the Stun on 10d6 attack than a 20d6 (unless you have a computer'd die rolling program, of course).