Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

[Hyper-Man]

More specifically,

 

Could any ONE member of your superteam at least distract someone like Grond away from innocent bystandards until the rest of your team showed up.

 

I bring up Grond since he is referred to as a baseline often and even was even updated in the Ultimate Brick. For a Very simple and early one shot adventure for a new group of gamers should Any member of the team be able to deal with an encounter with this big guy?

 

The old Spidey vs. Firelord thread got me thinking about this topic. I am not suggesting that they be able to actually win a fight. Just make sure nobody dies at the scene of the encounter.

 

Or, do most GM's here stay away from the published characters and/or use a large number of house rules that make them a hard campaign fit?

 

Comments Welcome!

 

HM

[phydaux]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Dude, you bring up published villains, and then you go straight to Grond?

 

If I were a player, I'd cry foul.

 

Now with that said, I have a martial artist who, with the right placement of skills and martial maneuvers, can pull off a 14 DCV with her Defensive Strike. Sure, her little 6D6 attack isn't going to have a PRAYER of hurting Grond, but she should be able to the "Stick-n-Move" dance long enough for help to arrive.

 

However, if Grond ever connects then she goes to zero BODY in one hit.

 

My power projector The Archer has Flashes and Entangles enough to keep Grond busy, and enough Swinging to star just out of Grond's reach.

 

My flying power projector, Quasar, could stay out of reach and rain Energy Blasts on Grond's body. But by himself, not enough STUN would get through Grond's ED to overcome his Recovery.

 

My Brick... would get pummeled. Into paste. Woundn't even stand a chance. But that's what happens when a 350 point brick fights a 410 point brick.

 

By Phase 6 my Mystic would have Grond thinking he was the Sugar Plum Fairy and make him dance The Nutcracker.

 

The ONLY chance the team would have to take Grond down (without the Mystic):

 

Martial Artist stays in Grond's face and taunts him with little girly-slaps (that character is female). The Archer and Quasar do Combined Attacks, Called Shot to the chest for X2 STUN, until he falls. The Brick can do crowd control.

[assault]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Could any ONE member of your superteam at least distract someone like Grond away from innocent bystandards until the rest of your team showed up.

 

I use Grond in the Hulk/Solomon Grundy role.

 

That means a single character _might_ be able to contain him until he gets bored and wanders off.

 

Then again, I'm not at all averse to giving him temporary power boosts that allow him to slap the whole group around.

 

Either way, I'm more likely to change his power level to suit the PCs rather than to change to PCs to suit him.

[Blue]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

I don't use published characters as a baseline, I use my campaign limits as a baseline. So when I tell my players 80 Active Max on attacks (etc.) I can create my villains accordingly.

 

However I think I need to use more published villains. Mine don't stand up to that many people as well as HERO's do. (I've got 8 players.)

 

Ironically, I do use published characters for test-runs. I pull one out of the book and run it against a character sent to me to see if it will work.

 

I actually used Grond as one of three tests when I was testing out Anthem. She actually frustrated the hell out of him because her only "real" power is taking hits. So on the "could she delay grond 'til the team go there", absolutely She did however get mopped up my mentalists and decent entangles. But I kept the design because of the Grond thing

[phydaux]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Yeah, Grond would be fun for a one-off. He's powerful enough to give the PCs trouble, but if they fight smart they should be able to take him down in one turn.

 

But how often do PCs fight smart? I'd say it would be a lot of fun to see if the PCs cound contain him, and how long it would take for them to do it.

 

Are these all experienced RPG'ers? Are they all experienced Champions players? That makes a differance.

 

A lot depends on things like relative CV. Grond has a 10 CV in HtH, but just a 6 CV otherwise. Do the characters in your group with ranges attacks have OCVs at 14+? If so, then they are doing head shots on Grond every phase on an 11-. But it you allow a PC with a 14 OCV, you don't belong behind the GM Screen.

 

Does everyone in the team have the Teamwork skill? If so, then those Combined Attacks are going to start hitting Grond like Thor's Hammer. But if everyone spent the points on the Teamwork skill, then that's what SHOULD happen.

 

It ALSO depends on if the team has a Mentalist or not. Give me the right Mental or Adjustment powers and I'll turn Grond into Snoopy in two Action Phases. And THAT isn't much fun for the rest of the group.

 

Even without a Mentalist, three PCs can put Grond down with the right mix of skills and teamwork. It might even take a full Turn. If one character is a total Munchkin, then he might be able to take Grond down with just a little help from the others. Then his character sheet should be ritually burned.

 

Without teamwork a group of 5 or so PCs will eventually be able to take Grond down. But they'll get pummeled, and it will take all night.

 

And THAT usually makes for a fun RPG session.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

I don't use published characters as a baseline, I use my campaign limits as a baseline. So when I tell my players 80 Active Max on attacks (etc.) I can create my villains accordingly.

 

However I think I need to use more published villains. Mine don't stand up to that many people as well as HERO's do. (I've got 8 players.)

 

Ironically, I do use published characters for test-runs. I pull one out of the book and run it against a character sent to me to see if it will work.

 

I actually used Grond as one of three tests when I was testing out Anthem. She actually frustrated the hell out of him because her only "real" power is taking hits. So on the "could she delay grond 'til the team go there", absolutely She did however get mopped up my mentalists and decent entangles. But I kept the design because of the Grond thing

Cool, I try to balance point caps with the range of abilities that the characters have. IMO, a brick with a 80 STR exceeds an 80 point cap since he can easily exceed 16d6 damage with a several base maneuvers (moveby and movethrough not to mention good ol' haymaker!). Grond is SO one dimensional and that is why I chose him for this hypothetical discussion.

 

Btw, I played in a pickup game a little over a year ago that started with a nearly random appearance of Grond. I had been so busy helping the other players create their characters I ran out of energy to build my own so I downloaded a straight speedster from the internet (not the HERO boards). My character got smashed with a car (while saving pedestrians) and the other 3 team members were barely able to subdue Grond without anyone getting killed or seriously injured (besides ME that is!).

 

HM

[proditor]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Yes and no. I do use them as a baseline in terms of getting a rough idea of what I might the PC's to be able to achieve at similar power levels. After that, it's all based on the campaign guidelines and the PC's themselves. The only hard fast rule I have in my campaign that is based on a published character is that no one is constantly as strong as Grond. Sure, Ripper can boost past him, and some of the PC's might be able to to at some point as well, but to rip off the Hulk. "GROND IS STRONGEST ONE OF ALL!!"

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Yeah' date=' Grond would be [u']fun[/u] for a one-off. He's powerful enough to give the PCs trouble, but if they fight smart they should be able to take him down in one turn.

 

But how often do PCs fight smart? I'd say it would be a lot of fun to see if the PCs cound contain him, and how long it would take for them to do it.

 

Are these all experienced RPG'ers? Are they all experienced Champions players? That makes a differance.

 

A lot depends on things like relative CV. Grond has a 10 CV in HtH, but just a 6 CV otherwise. Do the characters in your group with ranges attacks have OCVs at 14+? If so, then they are doing head shots on Grond every phase on an 11-. But it you allow a PC with a 14 OCV, you don't belong behind the GM Screen.

 

Does everyone in the team have the Teamwork skill? If so, then those Combined Attacks are going to start hitting Grond like Thor's Hammer. But if everyone spent the points on the Teamwork skill, then that's what SHOULD happen.

 

It ALSO depends on if the team has a Mentalist or not. Give me the right Mental or Adjustment powers and I'll turn Grond into Snoopy in two Action Phases. And THAT isn't much fun for the rest of the group.

 

Even without a Mentalist, three PCs can put Grond down with the right mix of skills and teamwork. It might even take a full Turn. If one character is a total Munchkin, then he might be able to take Grond down with just a little help from the others. Then his character sheet should be ritually burned.

 

Without teamwork a group of 5 or so PCs will eventually be able to take Grond down. But they'll get pummeled, and it will take all night.

 

And THAT usually makes for a fun RPG session.

I wasn't really thinking about the level of player experience in general or HERO. I am thinking of using Grond as a shakedown cruise like Blue described.

 

HM

[phydaux]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

And to answer your OTHER question, I use published villains A LOT. But my campaign takes place in the official Champs universe, so I use them for theflavor.

 

The only thing I don't use is the published Agents. Published Agents are wimps. MY Agents use MK VII Turtle Armor!

 

When I want to kick the PCs asses I use a home brewed villain team. Well, not REALLY home brewed - It's the Royal Flush Gang from Batman: Beyond.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Yes and no. I do use them as a baseline in terms of getting a rough idea of what I might the PC's to be able to achieve at similar power levels. After that' date=' it's all based on the campaign guidelines and the PC's themselves. The only hard fast rule I have in my campaign that is based on a published character is that no one is constantly as strong as Grond. Sure, Ripper can boost past him, and some of the PC's might be able to to at some point as well, but to rip off the Hulk. "GROND IS STRONGEST ONE OF ALL!!"[/quote']

Yeah, I agree that Grond should be the Top consistent STR guy around.

 

He's just Marvelous!

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

And to answer your OTHER question' date=' I use published villains A LOT. But my campaign takes place in the official Champs universe, so I use them for the[i']flavor[/i].

 

The only thing I don't use is the published Agents. Published Agents are wimps. MY Agents use MK VII Turtle Armor!

 

When I want to kick the PCs asses I use a home brewed villain team. Well, not REALLY home brewed - It's the Royal Flush Gang from Batman: Beyond.

Sweet, I never caught an episode of Batman: Beyond with them on it. Did you see the JL animated that had a version of them as well? Their powers were very close to those of the Teen Titans animated (and featured the very same voice actors I believe).

 

HM

[Trebuchet]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

But it you allow a PC with a 14 OCV' date=' you don't belong behind the GM Screen.[/quote']Since I happen to run a PC with a base OCV of 14 (43 DEX) prior to any martial maneuver bonuses and her two overall levels, that will come as a real disappointment to my GMs Mentor, Blackjack and El Tripon.

 

To answer the original thread topic, no we don't. We don't play in the CU, although we often poach suitable villains (usually with attending name changes) for our game. Most official villains are fairly wimpy unless you're talking about the big guns. Grond would probably never hit my character Zl'f in a "delay him" scenario without a couple really good rolls (because she'd be using Martial Block on all of Grond's Phases), but if he tags her even once it's all over. And with a 12d6 max attack Pushed I doubt she could hurt him either.

[phydaux]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

I wasn't really thinking about the level of player experience in general or HERO. I am thinking of using Grond as a shakedown cruise like Blue described.

 

Then just keep in mind that your shaking down a 350 PC with a 410 point villain. I think Ogre would be a truer one-on-one test for a 350 point PC. But then I LOVE Ogre.

[phydaux]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Sweet' date=' I never caught an episode of Batman: Beyond with them on it. Did you see the JL animated that had a version of them as well? Their powers were very close to those of the Teen Titans animated (and featured the very same voice actors I believe).[/quote']

 

 

Yes, I saw that. While I enjoyed the episode and liked it, I didn't much care for that version of the Royal Flush Gang.

 

In Batman: Beyond they were jewel thieves who were all part of the same family.

 

Ace is an android - Basicly a Takes No Stun Brick

Jack is a Gageteer with all the the FU powers and some martial arts

King isn't [i[really[/i] a martial artist, but he has a sword that allows him Missile Deflection and a HUGE HA

Queen has a Scepter with an EB multipower.

 

There's suppose to be a Ten that was the "skills" character, but she was ALSO the "reluctant villian/love interest." In one episode she left the gang and went straight. In another the gang drew her back in, she got caught and went to jail.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Cool' date=' I try to balance point caps with the [i']range[/i] of abilities that the characters have. IMO, a brick with a 80 STR exceeds an 80 point cap since he can easily exceed 16d6 damage with a several base maneuvers (moveby and movethrough not to mention good ol' haymaker!).

 

HM

 

Uhm... haymaker, anyone can do on anything, and Move By requires them to also have over 40" of movement.

 

Move through... you disallow Speedsters too? It's a pretty risky maneuver y'know.

[Rapier]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

But it you allow a PC with a 14 OCV' date=' you don't belong behind the GM Screen.[/quote']

PuhLease! This old bit again. "If you don't play like I do, you are doing it wrong." There is nothing wrong, in and of itself, with a 14 OCV.

 

I've got a couple of champions characters that are pushing the north side of 30 on Dex. A nat 10 or 11 OCV doesn't take much to get to a 14. And I can most heartily assure you, I most definately DO belong behind a GM screen. Thank you VERY much.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Uhm... haymaker, anyone can do on anything, and Move By requires them to also have over 40" of movement.

 

Move through... you disallow Speedsters too? It's a pretty risky maneuver y'know.

Oh No, I agree with you.

I like speedsters. I just think the move-through specialist character can stretch hard limits to their breaking points. An 80 STR character with a few levels with movethrough would qualify in this regards too since just his BASE leaping would be 16" and give him a 21d6 attack at only -3 OCV. If 21 dice isn't a near garanteed chance of doing knockback vs. most characters something is wrong. I think it balances out as long as they have other chinks in their armor so to speak (lower ED, no kind of ranged attacks, etc...)

 

HM

[phydaux]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

PuhLease! This old bit again.

 

Just sayin'... It's a 3d6 bell-curve game engine. If some munchkin decides to push on it, it will break.

 

If you have three PCs with 5 SPD, 8 CV and 12 DCs, and then you have ONE PC with 8 SPD, 14 CV AND 12 DCs, then the game stops being fun.

 

Now if the guy with the 14 OCV & 8 SPD only has 6 DCs and 10 PD/ED, THAT is all good. The player has given up some things up in order to excel at others. Good play, AND in genera.

 

I guess I'm just too acustom to having to slap down the munchkins & power gamers.

 

"For the last time 'NO', you CAN'T have a multipower with five AVLDs..."

[phydaux]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

I just think the move-through specialist character can stretch hard limits to their breaking points.

 

Oh! Been there, done that, saw the GM tear up the character sheet. It was an accident, I swear...

 

EC with Shrinking, Density Increase, Flight and Force Field, all at 0 END. I was doing a full move followed by 18D6 damage EVERY Action Phase. And the villains were at -8 to even SEE me.

 

Half way through the second combat, the GM said "Hey, let me see that charater sheet again?" and the rest of the players aplauded as he tore it into little pieces.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Grond, as published, would not be that big a challenge for most of the Sentinels. He could probably play delay on one of *us*, though. More specifically, in the case of Microman, he probably couldn't put Grond down, but Grond would be more than occupied and unable to hit him.

 

Aegis, OTOH, would have their hands full with Grond. Someone about as strong and tough as Gargantua, but without being anywhere near as easy to hit. . . it'd be painful, for sure.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Oh No, I agree with you.

I like speedsters. I just think the move-through specialist character can stretch hard limits to their breaking points. An 80 STR character with a few levels with movethrough would qualify in this regards too since just his BASE leaping would be 16" and give him a 21d6 attack at only -3 OCV. If 21 dice isn't a near garanteed chance of doing knockback vs. most characters something is wrong. I think it balances out as long as they have other chinks in their armor so to speak (lower ED, no kind of ranged attacks, etc...)

 

HM

 

In an 80 AP game?

 

No, 21d6 isn't guaranteed KB. -15" KB resistance isn't too expensive, and I believe there are "brace" options for (say) enemy bricks with lesser KB resistance.

 

And 21d6 is likely to be a (mutual?) KO.

[paigeoliver]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Ok, I just tested this 4th edition archer I made against 4th edition Grond a couple of times.

 

This character whumps Grond right around the end of the first full combat, turn. that is as long as Grond doesn't manage to hit her, if Grond can hit her in that time (he needs an 8- to hit her).

 

Her tactic against him is to use the END drain arrows until he is negative on end, and then switch to flame arrows, doing a half superleap away from him each phase. He is out of end and using STUN for end in only a couple phases, at which point she is hitting him with fire arrows, which he takes double damage from.

 

SHORT BOW

AKA: Julie Devonshire

 

15 STR 5

27 DEX 51

26 CON 32

18 BODY 16

8 INT -2

15 EGO 10

15 PRE 5

14 COM 2

8 PD 5

8 ED 3

5 SPD 13

10 REC 4

52 END

39 STUN

 

Char total 144 points

 

POWERS AND SKILLS

 

15 - MAGIC LEATHER ARMOR - +10 PD/+10 ED armor, ACT 14, OIF magic leather armor.

 

16 - Boots of the traveller - Multipower 20 point reserve. IIF boots

2u - 20" Superleap

2u +10" Running

 

19 - Goblin Biter - 1d6 HKA (2d6 w str), armor piercing, +2 STUN multiple, OAF sword

 

34 - Short bow - Multpower, 60 point reserve, 32 charges, OAF bow.

3u - Arrow - 4d6 RKA

3u - Driller arrow - 2 1/2d6 RKA penetrating

3u - Pain arrow - 1d6 RKA, +6 STUN multiple

3u - Burninator arrow - 2 1/2d6 RKA, area effect one hex

3u - McFlash Arrow - 4d6 sight flash, area effect one hex

3u - Sleep arrow - 1d6 RKA, linked to 5d6 END drain

3u - Flame arrow - 1d6 RKA, linked to 10d6 energy blast

3u - Fear arrow - 1d6 RKA, linked to 5d6 PRE drain

3u - Boom arrow - 2 1/2d6 RKA Explosion

 

5 - Short little thing - +1 to DCV

 

10 - Experienced - +1 Overall skill level

9 - Crack shot - +3 OCV with bow

6 - Steady shot - +3 range skill levels with bows

 

3 - Animal Handler 11-

3 - Weaponsmith: Common missile weapons 11-

3 - Riding

3 - LS: Immune to aging

2 - KS:Archery 11-

1 - KS:Archers 8-

 

Total Powers and skills 160 points

 

DISADVANTAGES

 

15 - Reputation famous archer 14-

5 - Professional rivalry with other archers

10 - Doesn't really understand romance, physical attraction, or sex. It all just goes over her head.

15 - Fear of giant insects, common, total

10 - Cannot lie unless carefully coached beforehand, uncommon, strong

10 - Distinctive features: "Tiny little thing" 4'10", 70 lbs, concealable, noticed

5 - Physical limitation short and light, infreq, slightly

15 - Susceptibility: 6d6 fear based presence attack every time a giant insect hits. Uncommon, instant (30 active)

15 - Submissive personality, very common, moderate

 

Disadvantages Total 100 points

 

Char 144

Powers 160

Total 304

Disadvantages 100

XP spent 4

Base 200

 

Vital Statistics

Short Bow/Julie is 4'10" tall and thin, she weighs in at around 70 lbs. She has shoulder length brown hair, and she appears to be of an indeterminite, but young age. She could claim anything from 12-30 and see no arguements. In reality she is close to 350 years old.

 

Background:

Julie Devonshire was originally one of the halflings of legend, living in a fantastic alternate dimension. Julie was never particularly bright, or even very skilled at most halfing pursuits, but she was good with her bow. She left home at a young age to work as an archer for an adventuring group. She had some very bad experiences with giant spiders, flies and centipedes early on in her career, it seems like all the brainless beasties wanted to eat her because she was the smallest and plumpest one.

 

No one else really saw Julie as much of a threat, thus she lived and lived and increased her skill greatly. She was always a very simple girl though. She never really quite could wrap her brain around a couple of concepts, lying, and romance. On her own Julie will always be 100 percent helpful and 100 percent honest. If coached beforehand then she can lie, but she is still terrible at it. For example, if Julie is coached to to say she was never at the villian base, then she will indeed say that, but if then asked what she did while she was there, then she will answer exactly what she did while she was there! As for romance, she just doesn't get it, many men have tried over the years, and Julie enjoys the attention, but she just can't really wrap her brain around what an actual relationship or marriage involves. Most of her relationships have ended with her screaming "You want to do WHAT with me?".

 

She worked for the same adventuring company for 5 years, she was always in the background, she never made the decisions, which was exactly the way she liked things. Everything changed the day her group set out to find the "Gate of Heroes.

 

The Gate of Heroes was said to be in a distant ancient land, and was said to grant immortality and vast power, and to send the traveller to a far away land. Sages said that only the pure of heart could use the gate. Her group eventually found the gate and they entered in one by one and they vanished one by one. Julie assumed they were all getting their prize and she happily jumped in as well, only to come out alone on the other side. She was the only one with a pure heart, the others were all obliterated.

 

The other side of the gate landed her firmly in England in the 18th century. She had changed. She went from halfing to human. Her abilities had increased, and over time she increased them further over time. Her magic equipment had vastly changed in scope and power.

 

Over time she realized that she had stopped aging entirely. It took her about 50 or 60 years to realize it (since she isn't too bright, and she was originally a halfling, and they age slow to begin with). Equally she realized that her magical equipment wasn't particularly magic anymore, and it was her that had the ability inside. Any bow, footgear, blade, or armor she uses will eventually take on the qualities of the equipment she carried with her to earth.

 

PERSONALITY

 

Julie is simple, friendly, and a follower. She works best in a team environment, where others can direct her. The only solo success she has ever had is in the professional archery world, where she is one of the world's finest archers. She doesn't have a secret ID, so everyone knows that Julie Devonshire IS Short Bow, thus any meet she attends ends up on ESPN, even if it wasn't originally scheduled.

 

She spends her off time relaxing, reading children's books, watching television and collecting pink things. Her entire apartment is pink, as is a large percentage of her non-super wardrobe. She enjoys dancing, but never goes out to clubs because she always meets guys who seem nice, but end up wanting to do "stuff" with her (at age 350, Julie might be the worlds oldest living virgin).

 

She is not into heavy thinking at all, and prefers to let most things happen, and let most things handle themselves. Her finances tend to vary from near poverty levels, to several million in the bank. She doesn't pay too much attention to them, if she runs out of money then she will usually sell something on ebay, always absolutely amazed at how much one of her arrows, hand crafted bows, or just one of her stuffed animals will sell for (her ebay ID is well associated with her super hero identity).

 

POWERS/TACTICS

 

All of Julie's arrows are identical. She doesn't carry a quiver of trick arrows, she carries a quiver of normal arrows, the power comes from her. She seems to have an arrow for every occaision. She doesn't have really great defenses, so she prefers to attempt to either snipe at characters who are already in close combat with others, or to shoot at other archers, mentalists and energy projectors. She prefers to use her bow whenever possible, and only uses her sword if forced into it.

 

She usually tries to use her leaping boots to jump up someplace high and out of the way where she can fire from relative safety.

 

She is basically useless when it comes to giant insects and things that look like giant insects. She won't go anywhere near them, and will usually flee from them at the first opportunity. This includes villians who look like giant insects, such as Cancer (Zodiac), Thok, Slug, Leech, Ladybug, and Giganto.

 

Appearance

Julie wears a pink leotard covered over in a tan suit of leather armor (fantasy style).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

So what does the Archer do when Grond Throws a 1974 Ford LTD at her?

[Kristopher]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

I have a feeling that the LTD is going to become a running in-joke around here...we'll have to add it to the FAQ or something...

[Rapier]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

So what does the Archer do when Grond Throws a 1974 Ford LTD at her?

Abort to squish?