Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

[JmOz]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

My character would probably be able to hold off Grod, for a turn:

 

Base CV: 10, +2 DCV with Defencive Shot, +5 skill levels=17 DCV when I really need it. Lots of Flash, Smoke Screens, etc...

 

My AVLD I think would actualy hurt him (would have to check it is 3d6 vs Flash Defence Hearing/AE:1 hex).

 

Otherwise I would need to get lucky on my Find Weakness Rolls (And ALOT OF LUCK AT THAT)

 

My team would make him there Be-otch, our dog would shed him to ribbens...

[Superskrull]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Hmm, makes me almost embarassed about when the last Champions character I ran had to fight Grond. I had a 450 pt brick with the concept being strongest man in the world. I was blinded by the supervillain working in conjunction with Grond ( ie point him at the target and snipe from cover) and I wound up having to grapple with him and squeezed him unconscious. 'Course, I had a Str of 75,Dex of 20, Spd 5, OCV 10 w/levels, a Con of 50 & 50 PD, 6" of KBR, and a multipower that let me ramp up to a total of 150 Str. Gross, yes, but damn Atlas could put pain on people. Sadly, after the retcon storyline, he had dwindled to a mere 120 Str max.

[JmOz]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

So what does the Archer do when Grond Throws a 1974 Ford LTD at her?

 

Abort to "GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE" AKA dive for cover

[Agent X]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

In an 80 AP game?

 

No, 21d6 isn't guaranteed KB. -15" KB resistance isn't too expensive, and I believe there are "brace" options for (say) enemy bricks with lesser KB resistance.

 

And 21d6 is likely to be a (mutual?) KO.

Let's not forget what martial throw does to move through artists. Then there are images and mental illusions. Won't that move through artist feel not so fresh after they plow into something they didn't notice because they catapulted themselves after a mirage? Oh, and area/explosive flashes on someone getting set to move through are nice too.

 

When your players build characters that emphasize one thing that appears to take the challenge out of the game, there are usually several options to highlight their character's vulnerabilities and limitations. Got somebody with a HUGE energy blast? Keep the PC honest. Throw in missile reflectors often enough to remind everyone what can happen.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

That, or perhaps a big-ass energy absorber. *eg*

[phydaux]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Abort to squish?

 

My usual plan when a Martial Artist fights a Brick is for the Martial Artist to hold his action until DEX 1 of the Phase just before his next Action Phase.

 

Holding, holding, pop a quick maneuver, then BAM it's my action again.

[Rapier]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Let's not forget what martial throw does to move through artists. Then there are images and mental illusions. Won't that move through artist feel not so fresh after they plow into something they didn't notice because they catapulted themselves after a mirage? Oh, and area/explosive flashes on someone getting set to move through are nice too.

 

When your players build characters that emphasize one thing that appears to take the challenge out of the game, there are usually several options to highlight their character's vulnerabilities and limitations. Got somebody with a HUGE energy blast? Keep the PC honest. Throw in missile reflectors often enough to remind everyone what can happen.

Abso-Freakin-Lutely! Think about it from the villains point of view. I have a fire energy blast and am susceptible/vulnerable to magical entangles. That hero is immune to fire blasts and has a magic entangle. I'm NOT going after that hero, and if he shows up I'm outta here.

 

They're villains, not morons. Expect them to take advantage of tactics, vulnerabilities etc. I had one team that got PWNED by a low powered PSI group. It's not wrong or evil to use the characters powers against them, it's expected.

[Rapier]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

My usual plan when a Martial Artist fights a Brick is for the Martial Artist to hold his action until DEX 1 of the Phase just before his next Action Phase.

 

Holding, holding, pop a quick maneuver, then BAM it's my action again.

I have a HUGE problem with that kind of activity. Its abusing the game system. The character is allowing the game mechanics to drive the actions instead of the actions driving the game mechanics. It reeks (reaks?) like a an old-lady fart of player knowledge bleed. How does Mr Kung Fu (the character) understand or even know about waiting until DEX 1 of Phase 5?

 

Nope, not in my game. I would kindly explain to any such munchkin powergamer that is not how we play around here and if you don't like it you are more than welcome to take your wheel of cheese and hoof it on out to the curb.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

I have a HUGE problem with that kind of activity. Its abusing the game system. The character is allowing the game mechanics to drive the actions instead of the actions driving the game mechanics. It reeks (reaks?) like a an old-lady fart of player knowledge bleed. How does Mr Kung Fu (the character) understand or even know about waiting until DEX 1 of Phase 5?

 

Nope, not in my game. I would kindly explain to any such munchkin powergamer that is not how we play around here and if you don't like it you are more than welcome to take your wheel of cheese and hoof it on out to the curb.

Well, I have mixed feelings on this type of issue.

 

I understand the reluctance to just let everyone use the speed chart the way you described all the time BUT, wouldn't Analyze Style permit that kind timing in a combat. Have you never played a finger-twitch video game where split second delays between block and attack were crucial to sucess? And IF Grond is a known quantity (reputation) in the game world, wouldn't it be plausible to say that a type of everyman analyze style is taking place pre-fight "I know he'll crush me if he hits but he doesn't seem to be that fast on film. If I just find his fighting-rhythm I should be able find the counter-rhythm to beat him with!"

 

HM

[Trebuchet]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

I have a HUGE problem with that kind of activity. Its abusing the game system. The character is allowing the game mechanics to drive the actions instead of the actions driving the game mechanics. It reeks (reaks?) like a an old-lady fart of player knowledge bleed. How does Mr Kung Fu (the character) understand or even know about waiting until DEX 1 of Phase 5?

 

Nope, not in my game. I would kindly explain to any such munchkin powergamer that is not how we play around here and if you don't like it you are more than welcome to take your wheel of cheese and hoof it on out to the curb.

I don't think that's munchkinism at all. It's simply smart game play. The Phases and Speed Chart simply represent the normal ebb and flow of combat. Watch any kung fu movie. There are always scenes where one of the heroes take on multiple opponents, and there are often long (Several seconds) "pauses" in the combat. That's simply the tempo of the combat.

 

I find it helps to think of each Phase as a single frame of a comic book than as a specific discreet amount of time. And Spider-Man gets more frames than the Rhino.

[Chuckg]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

OK, going down some characters I have, both PC and NPC...

 

Dr. Pain, PC, 350-point pro wrestling brick -- is most likely going to get pasted, as Grond way overmatches him in his own specialty. His only hope is to play 'smart brick vs. dumb brick', and use things like Martial Throws and Blocks from his Pro Wrestling martial arts package. Unfortunately, Grond's extra arms give him a SPD advantage, so...

 

Starguard, PC, 815-point archangel-in-human-host-with-cosmic-VPP -- the only significant delay here is that Starguard will spend time trying to talk Grond down without having to actually punch him. (Or I could unleash my 120 PRE "Belldandy Effect" redemption attack... assuming I ever get the DM to approve it. ) If and when she ever does uncrank the firepower, well, she's just got too many ways to shut him down now. And not only has he damn little hope of hitting her (in addition to a 12 DCV, she flies, and her attacks are all No Range Penalty, so she never has to get close...) -- her defenses are 30PD/30ED Resistant, so even if Grond *does* connect, she probably won't be stunned.

 

Baron von Darien, PC, 750+ master vampire -- Grond is getting the hypno-stare and going and quietly laying down. If that fails, he'll spend all of his time trying to punch a SPD 7 gas cloud that keeps resolidifying to Martial Throw him repeatedly, using up all his phases.

 

Silver Avenger Darin Falswell(*), recurring NPC from my 'Aegis' campaign -- if he allocates his PRIMUS Equipment Gadget VPP for some 'brickbuster' gear, he can probably pull out the win here -- he's got a notable DEX and SPD edge, and a much higher ability to fight smart and take advantage of the environment, while simultaneously being tough enough to take at least a couple glancing blows without pulping.(**) Grond won't have to just get lucky once, he'll have to get lucky 3 or 4 times.

 

OTOH, if he's just carrying his normal situation load -- probably not. His best HTH attack is 14d6 pushed. His normal sidearm won't even *annoy* Grond. And his normal gadget loadout (NND gas grenades, tanglefoot bombs, etc.) either won't do enough STUN, and/or have no hope of holding a being with Grond's STR.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(*) My own 5e makeover version... i.e., he's not a mutant-hating psychotic jerkhole. Instead, he's a severely-disapproving-of-costumed-superheroes pain in the ass.

 

If I just made him a villain, you see, the PCs could punch him. As is, they're frustrated by the fact that he's fully as honest and dedicated to protecting the innocent as they are... he just doesn't like them.

 

And he also scores a -99 in "Tact", so...

 

Why yes, he is the resident Silver Avenger and PRIMUS field office director for the campaign city, how'd you guess?

 

(**) I used VIPER-X's stats as the benchmark for him, not Mayte Sanchez'... and then I worked up a bit. My own Darin Falswell 5e is a 602-point character... granted, a goodly chunk of that was equipment and skills.

[Netzilla]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

I have a HUGE problem with that kind of activity. Its abusing the game system. The character is allowing the game mechanics to drive the actions instead of the actions driving the game mechanics. It reeks (reaks?) like a an old-lady fart of player knowledge bleed. How does Mr Kung Fu (the character) understand or even know about waiting until DEX 1 of Phase 5?

 

Nope, not in my game. I would kindly explain to any such munchkin powergamer that is not how we play around here and if you don't like it you are more than welcome to take your wheel of cheese and hoof it on out to the curb.

 

I wouldn't put it into the 'HUGE problem' category myself. However, I do prefer that players state what their character is waiting for without using game-mechanics terms. Saying "I'm waiting for DEX 1 of Segment 3," will get a responce of "And how will your character recognize that?" On the other hand, saying that you're going to "Wait until you can hit Grond and then dodge his return blow." is perfectly legit if the character knows something about how fast Grond is.

[Rapier]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

I wouldn't put it into the 'HUGE problem' category myself. However' date=' I do prefer that players state what their character is waiting for without using game-mechanics terms. Saying "I'm waiting for DEX 1 of Segment 3," will get a responce of "And how will your [b']character[/b] recognize that?" On the other hand, saying that you're going to "Wait until you can hit Grond and then dodge his return blow." is perfectly legit if the character knows something about how fast Grond is.

We are of a similar mind. I do not allow my players to hold Open Actions (eg the "I hold my action.") All held actions are closed or defined. I would also never allow a player to use a game mechanic to determine when their action will take place (eg "I hold until DEX 12.") much like you expressed above, How would the character know when/what DEX 12 was?

 

This kind of behaviour is the kind of munchkining rules creep that can ruin an RPG. I've noticed that this kind of thing seems to be more prevalent in wargamers. If that is actually the case, there is nothing wrong with it...for wargaming. However, this is an RPG. There is supposed to be a difference between the player and the character.

 

Yes, someone could use an analyze skill roll to determine the eb and flow of combat. This could very well gain them some kind of advantage. However, that advantage is going to have to be determined by the character and not the player. A character could declare "I wait until after Grond's attack to begin my Haymaker." That is perfectly valid. A player stating that the character is going to being their HayMaker on Phase 12 because noone acts on Phase 1 is a gross violation of the spirit of the entire game. It is at this point that I would stop telling people what phase they are and just call out whose action it is. Or I might rearrange what phases certain SPDs act on (a SPD 6 still gets 6 actions per turn but maybe on phases 3,5,7,9,11 and 12). Pretty drastic? Not when you are trying to save a game its not.

 

When players start throwing the character out the window and start allowing the player to run the character I have a HUGE problem. The player has stopped roleplaying. This is going to negatively effect him and the rest of the group. Its very possible, even likely, that allowing this behaviour in one player would spread to the other characters like chiggers at a jamboree. Pretty soon all the players are doing it and you are not roleplaying any more. Actions devolve into game mechanics abuses the likes of which can destroy a campaign. It's a slope I would just as well stand well back from.

[zornwil]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

I don't think that's munchkinism at all. It's simply smart game play. The Phases and Speed Chart simply represent the normal ebb and flow of combat. Watch any kung fu movie. There are always scenes where one of the heroes take on multiple opponents, and there are often long (Several seconds) "pauses" in the combat. That's simply the tempo of the combat.

 

I find it helps to think of each Phase as a single frame of a comic book than as a specific discreet amount of time. And Spider-Man gets more frames than the Rhino.

I agree whole-heartedly, figuring out your opponent is a SPD 6 and knowing you're a SPD 7 and therefore when you're going to get your actions relatively is directly reflective of how (in my opinion) many of the great combat characters, such as Batman and Captain America, work. I realize it's not as if they're counting a SPD chart, but they are calculating "Hmmm, he's a tad slower than me, if I do this now, I'll get one more chance to get a blow in before he does in the next 7 seconds," or whatever the case may be.

 

Inappropriate metagaming would be "Ah, I know from the book that Grond is a SPD 5 (or whatever, personally I have no clue as I don't use the CU at all) and so even though it's the first time our characters have met in combat, I"m prepared!"

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

The old Spidey vs. Firelord thread got me thinking about this topic. I am not suggesting that they be able to actually win a fight. Just make sure nobody dies at the scene of the encounter.

 

There might be a danger of somebody dying.

 

That somebody being Grond.

 

Two of us trashed Eurostar (4th edition, when they were tough) because we were bored that day. There's a reason that Dr Destroyer left that world.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Iron Golem would be able to hold him off for almost a turn before dropping, thanks to 20 PD, DI/Growth giving some KB resistance, and half reduction. He never had more than a 65 STR, though, so doing significant stun would be unlikely, but he could at least handle a few phases of pounding. Possibly he could chin block a couple shots, brace against knockback, and hold out a full turn.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

On a side note to the main topic,

 

Would a pure Martial Artist archtype* in your game (think Batman*) be able to "Block" Gronds punches?

 

According to a strict interpretation of the rules he should. I am asking about Block in particular with respect to Brick Tricks from The Ultimate Brick with options for Advantaged STR like AOE: 1 Hex and Indirect. (AOE:1 Hex can be Blocked but NOT dodged, Indirect can be Dodged but not Blocked).

 

*assuming a non-super 25-30 STR and DEX and 10 Base PD.

 

HM

[TheEmerged]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

RE: Original Topic. Nope, I established my own baslines and rewrite the published characters where I want them.

 

To use DEX as an example, I established the #1 DEX at 60 for a high-level speedster, the #2 DEX as 53 for the campaign equivalent of Spiderman, and said that there were a number of other speedsters at 43 -- and that anything below 40 was fair game.

 

For STR, I established Grond and the Golden Avenger at 150 (both are more powerful in my campaign than the official writeups), with Ironclad (considered a "standard" brick) at 80 and declaring 60 the minimum for anyone that calls themselves a brick.

 

RE: The "if you'd allow a player with that OCV you have no business as GM" crack. That's out of line. This is a *game*, and games are about having fun -- and definitions of "fun" are different. I prefer a tighter standard with the occassional imbalances existing as a challenge, just like I prefer high-point campaigns in which characters are more "tricked out" than "powered up". If your preference differs, you're welcome to it.

 

Speaking for myself, I'd only allow a PC to have a score that high if there were other balancing factors -- like having both and DMG and DEF score coming in below the campaign average. As for NPC's I have a few, and by that I mean less than a dozen novas out of the 7000 worldwide, characters designed to be powerful characters in that range.

 

RE: Blocking Grond. Yes, but I'm not wed to the idea that a "block" represents stopping Grond's punch with your own body. "Block" to me is just a game mechanic by which you stop an attack with a direct action -- it can represent sitting there and taking the punch, acrobatically moving around the punch, using a pole to keep a giant lizard's mouth from shutting, or the classic shapeshifter trick of shifting around the blow.

[zornwil]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

On a side note to the main topic,

 

Would a pure Martial Artist archtype* in your game (think Batman*) be able to "Block" Gronds punches?

 

According to a strict interpretation of the rules he should. I am asking about Block in particular with respect to Brick Tricks from The Ultimate Brick with options for Advantaged STR like AOE: 1 Hex and Indirect. (AOE:1 Hex can be Blocked but NOT dodged, Indirect can be Dodged but not Blocked).

 

*assuming a non-super 25-30 STR and DEX and 10 Base PD.

 

HM

Yes, and would qualify the same way as TheEmerged.

 

On another tangent, I'm curious about how people have gone about the martial artist/Batman sort of specialties where characters hit a tendon or nerve or such and cripple a particular part of an enemy's body, no matter how tough they are and how light the damage. I imagine Drains on SPD or DEX and such are the common way to go, but curious how others have done it.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Yes, and would qualify the same way as TheEmerged.

 

On another tangent, I'm curious about how people have gone about the martial artist/Batman sort of specialties where characters hit a tendon or nerve or such and cripple a particular part of an enemy's body, no matter how tough they are and how light the damage. I imagine Drains on SPD or DEX and such are the common way to go, but curious how others have done it.

Well, since NND entangles are officially kosher, a limited form of that might work(the defense being using your CON as damage dice against the entangle).

Could be a transform endowing the appropriate physical limitation, though that seems like overkill.

[zornwil]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Well, since NND entangles are officially kosher, a limited form of that might work(the defense being using your CON as damage dice against the entangle).

Could be a transform endowing the appropriate physical limitation, though that seems like overkill.

Hmmm, NND Entangle...I should consider that linked with limited TK perhaps instead for Syndrome's Zero-Point Energy restraining device.

[Rapier]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Yes, and would qualify the same way as TheEmerged.

 

On another tangent, I'm curious about how people have gone about the martial artist/Batman sort of specialties where characters hit a tendon or nerve or such and cripple a particular part of an enemy's body, no matter how tough they are and how light the damage. I imagine Drains on SPD or DEX and such are the common way to go, but curious how others have done it.

For years, I have used the thumb-in-cheek rule that you calculate the BODY an attack could have done (usually on an NND) and compare that to the variable for amputation. If the BODY that could have been done exceed that value the limb is disabled.

 

However, in the past couple days, thanks to a post by [someone...take your bow if you know who you are] I have found that there is actually a rule in UMA for just this sort of thing.

[zornwil]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

I'll have to recheck UMA, I did read it but don't recall. Thanks.

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

 

Well, Ubermech could handle Grond well enough I suppose. Of course, Ubermech is a 750pt Brick so I think he'd win in a slugfest.

 

As for Omega, my older, more experienced character, she's faced Grond before and would try and calm him down. He's no really threat to her, and she'd try to keep him from doing any damage to the surroundings or to any civillians in the area.