VPP Question

[Hyper-Man]

Hi Everyone,

I know limitations on powers within VPP's are always a source of debate so I was looking input for the following idea.

 

What if you wanted to create a Cosmic VPP with the Limitations that no power can have more than 1/2 of the active points of the total pool reserve. Additionaly, no powers can take any additional limitations beyond those that affect ALL powers in the VPP.

 

How much would these limitations be worth if anything?

 

I know that technically, what I am describing is no different than having 2 seperate but smaller pools that have the exact same special effect which otherwise reasonably could be combined into just one larger pool which seems like a type of limitation of sorts.

 

example: One 100 point VPP reserve that behaves as if it were 2 separate 50 point VPP's. 100 reserve cost + control cost (150 divided by ?). For comparison, a 100 point reserve Multipower with 10 ultra slots of 50 active points each would cost 150 points total.

 

I was thinking that the combination of limitations might be worth somewhere between -1/2 to -2 to be applied to the VPP Control Cost but I am not sure how to narrow that range down any more.

 

Any opinions and ideas welcome.

 

HM

 

edit

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPP Question

 

bump...

(since this was originally posted late last night)

 

HM

[paigeoliver]

Re: VPP Question

 

I have no problems with limitations on power pool powers, provided they are actually limitations.

 

For example, you can't apply -2 "only vs. Grond" on your energy blast just so you can get a giant blast against grond. But you could certainly do an 11- activation, or 3x end to get a giant blast.

 

Of course if it is a change "only between adventures" pool, then I might actually allow the -2, only vs. grond limitation.

 

I don't see the limitations you listed as being worth much anything at all. A lot of gamemasters would limit your active points anyway. And "no limitations" isn't much of a limitation either.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPP Question

 

I have no problems with limitations on power pool powers, provided they are actually limitations.

 

For example, you can't apply -2 "only vs. Grond" on your energy blast just so you can get a giant blast against grond. But you could certainly do an 11- activation, or 3x end to get a giant blast.

 

Of course if it is a change "only between adventures" pool, then I might actually allow the -2, only vs. grond limitation.

 

I don't see the limitations you listed as being worth much anything at all. A lot of gamemasters would limit your active points anyway. And "no limitations" isn't much of a limitation either.

I know this limitation is worth something, I just don't know what exactly. Here is a better example between a Multipower and Cosmic (with limited powerset) VPP for what I am trying to do.

 

50 point Multipower Reserve = 50 points

10 slots of 50 active points each 'ultra' = 50 points

total cost = 100

 

50 point Variable Power Pool reserve = 50 points

25 x (1+2 'cosmic') = 75

Only usable for 1 (50 active point) power at a time (-1/4)

Limited special effect (-1/4)= 50 point

total cost = 100

The Multipower's Reserve can easily be increased to 100 points for a total real cost of 150. The only immediate affect being that the character can now use 2 seperate 50 active point 'ultra slots' at the same time. The limitation is already built in by use of 'ultra' slots.

 

If I wan't to increase the VPP Reserve to 100 points the total cost jumps from 110 to 220. I want to limit it further by saying that no single power can have more than 50 active points which effectively copies the 2 seperate 'ultra slot' example above. I think this second limitation is worth something but I am not sure what. If I go with an additional (-1) for demonstration purposes I get: 100 pool + [(50 control x 3)/(2 1/2)] = total real cost of 160 (10 points more than the 10 slot Multipower).

 

None of you rules gurus want to touch this one?

 

HM

[paigeoliver]

Re: VPP Question

 

You can't really compare variable power pools to multipowers. And there is no way that is a -1 limitation.

 

I wouldn't allow more than a -1/4 limitation for it. You basic effect (both limitations) is essentially to limit your active point cost to 50. Which I GUESS is worth -1/4 on the control cost. MAYBE, but your GM might bring up the fact that he might ALREADY have a hard limit on active points, and thus your limitation is not limiting.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPP Question

 

You can't really compare variable power pools to multipowers. And there is no way that is a -1 limitation.

 

I wouldn't allow more than a -1/4 limitation for it. You basic effect (both limitations) is essentially to limit your active point cost to 50. Which I GUESS is worth -1/4 on the control cost. MAYBE, but your GM might bring up the fact that he might ALREADY have a hard limit on active points, and thus your limitation is not limiting.

A Variable Power Pool is just a Multipower with an infinite amount of slots so I disagree that they cannot be compared. I am looking for input for what the limitation should be. Ignore active point caps for purposes of this argument.

 

Easier example: Batman's Utility Belt

 

Multipower example

30 reserve with 15 ultra slots (30 active points each)

all OIF

cost 20 + 30 = 50 real points

 

If the Multipower reserve is increased to 60 it still only allows 30 active point powers. This costs an additional 20 points which totals 70 real points.

 

To increase all the individual slots to 60 active ultra slots would cost an additonal 30 points for a total of 100 real points.

 

VPP example

30 reserve

30 cosmic control cost with OIF

cost 30 + 30 = 60 real points

 

If the VPP reserve is increased to 60 it costs 120 but also allows for 60 active point powers.

 

What I am asking for is advice on how to create a VPP reserve that behaves exactly like the 70 point multipower example above (not the 100 point one). I made the statement earlier about no additional limations so that it would be clear that 2 and only 2 sets of powers could be used at half the total pool active points.

 

HM

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: VPP Question

 

I have a house rule for VPPs that handles the "It's a 100 point pool, but nothing can be more than 50 Active Points."

 

As written, each point in the pool of a VPP has two functions:

• It increases the Active Points any Power in the Pool can have.
  
• It increases the Real Points that all Powers in the Pool combined can add up to.

I use this structure as well by default; for 1 point, you buy 1 point worth of VPP that fills both of those functions. But I also allow you to buy Pool points that only fill one of those functions... they only increase the allowable Active Cost, or they only increase the total combined Real Cost. Either of these kinds of restricted Pool points cost 1 point for 2 pool points. The Control Cost is then based on the final cost.

 

So in your example, I would have you buy 50 "normal" Pool points (cost 50), and 50 restricted Pool points that only increase the Real Points allowed (cost 25). The Control Cost would then be as if it was a 75 point VPP.

 

You would be limited to 50 Active Points in each Power, because you only bought 50 Pool points that apply to the Active Points. But you could have up to 100 Real Points worth of Powers total, thanks to the extra 50 restricted points.

 

As for the "No other Limitations" Limitation, I would give it, at most, -1/2. And since this is a restriction on the type of Powers the Pool can have, rather than an actual Limitation on the Powers themselves, it would apply only to the Control Cost... not to the Powers in the Pool.

[JohnOSpencer]

Re: VPP Question

 

I think -1/4 is right. Limiting, but not too limiting. I have a NPC who has a 500 point VPP with a similiar limitation(no more than 150 AP in any power) and that's what she has.

 

I might go as high as -1/2, depending on the size of the pool and the AP limit of each power.

 

John

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPP Question

 

I have a house rule for VPPs that handles the "It's a 100 point pool, but nothing can be more than 50 Active Points."

 

As written, each point in the pool of a VPP has two functions:

 

• It increases the Active Points any Power in the Pool can have.
  
• It increases the Real Points that all Powers in the Pool combined can add up to.
  

I use this structure as well by default; for 1 point, you buy 1 point worth of VPP that fills both of those functions. But I also allow you to buy Pool points that only fill one of those functions... they only increase the allowable Active Cost, or they only increase the total combined Real Cost. Either of these kinds of restricted Pool points cost 1 point for 2 pool points. The Control Cost is then based on the final cost.

 

So in your example, I would have you buy 50 "normal" Pool points (cost 50), and 50 restricted Pool points that only increase the Real Points allowed (cost 25). The Control Cost would then be as if it was a 75 point VPP.

 

You would be limited to 50 Active Points in each Power, because you only bought 50 Pool points that apply to the Active Points. But you could have up to 100 Real Points worth of Powers total, thanks to the extra 50 restricted points.

 

As for the "No other Limitations" Limitation, I would give it, at most, -1/2. And since this is a restriction on the type of Powers the Pool can have, rather than an actual Limitation on the Powers themselves, it would apply only to the Control Cost... not to the Powers in the Pool.

I really like this idea. Even thought it appears to break a core rule about VPP's in that it takes a limitation on the Base Pool cost, you give a very good explaination on why.

 

 

Thanks,

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPP Question

 

What if you wanted to create a Cosmic VPP with the Limitations that no power can have more than 1/2 of the active points of the total pool reserve.

 

To me, this constrains the effectiveness of the control cost, as you have sacrificed the ability to have higher AP powers. While I kind of like Derek's modification, I view the control cost as being the cost of your ability to freely allocate the points within your VPP, instead of locking the points into a single configuration. This limits your ability to reallocate these points.

 

No more than half the AP to a single power is probabky worth a -1/2 limitation on the control cost, or at least that's my gut feel. Note that I would not let the power use MPA attacks of two max AP attack powers, however, or weasel around the limit by putting half the VPP points in an "all PD" force field and the rest in an "all ED" force field.

 

Additionaly' date=' no powers can take any additional limitations beyond those that affect ALL powers in the VPP. [/quote']

 

This one's a bit tougher. Limitations raise the number of powers available within the VPP, of course, but also reduce the effectiveness of the powers taken. I'd be inclined to say -1/4, since there is still some restriction on the character's options. This assumes you don't have a lot of limits on all VPP powers already, such that further limitations would have been unlikely.

 

And, as is commonly discussed, I don't allow most situational limitations (eg. "not in darkness" or "only in cold weather") on powers within a VPP (as opposed to the VPP as a whole) to begin with, which narrows the available choices already.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: VPP Question

 

So in your example' date=' I would have you buy 50 "normal" Pool points (cost 50), and 50 restricted Pool points that only increase the Real Points allowed (cost 25). The Control Cost would then be as if it was a 75 point VPP.[/quote']

 

Essentially a -1/2 Limitation. That's about what I was thinking. Although, as Paigeoliver pointed out, if even half the Pool is a really huge amount, it may not be worth anything at all.

 

As for the "No other Limitations" Limitation' date=' I would give it, at most, -1/2. And since this is a restriction on the type of Powers the Pool can have, rather than an actual Limitation on the Powers themselves, it would apply only to the Control Cost... not to the Powers in the Pool.[/quote']

 

That sounds about right to me, too. And yeah, it'd be kind of counterproductive if the Limitation that said you couldn't take any other Limitations on Powers in the Pool were itself applied to the Powers in the Pool. Just thinking about it makes my head spin.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPP Question

 

I appreciate the analysis Hugh,

 

 

• Your method ends up with a straight cost of 166 on a 100/50+50 VPP.
  
• Derek's version ends up as 165 (75 + (37.5 x 3)/(1 1/4)).
  
• A straight 100 point reserve Multipower with 10 50 point Ultra-slots costs 150.
  

Both of your versions are functionally identical before including any other additional limitations.

Now compare these with the original 150 point Multipower that is improved to have 10 50 point Multi-slots (or instead: 20 50 point Ultra-slots) which costs 200 real points. 34-35 more points for what essentially is obtainable from either VPP constructions above.

 

I started this thread to explore ideas about XP advancement for characters with multipowers. I have always disliked characters that Start with a VPP as their primary attack power base since the basic rules don't allow you to expand a pool in the 3 distinct ways* that you can with a traditional Multipower built with Ultra slots initially.

 

*Assuming a 50 point multipower reserve and 10 ultra-slots as a starting point that costs 100 points. You can spend 50 additional points on the reserve to give the ability to use 2 different powers simultaneously. Or you can change the Ultra slots to full Multi-slots. The third choice is of course to increase both the Pool and Slots up to the point of VPP effectiveness.

 

If you are interested in seeing a character build that was part of the inspiration for this thread follow this link:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=518116&postcount=27

 

I think that the 10 slots used in the MP examples above is actually an over estimate since an 8 multi-slot Multipower is actually more expensive than an equal sized reserve VPP.

50 reserve MP with 8x10m = 130

50 reserve VPP with 75 control = 125

Regards,

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPP Question

 

• Your method ends up with a straight cost of 166 on a 100/50+50 VPP.
  
• Derek's version ends up as 165 (75 + (37.5 x 3)/(1 1/4)).
  
• A straight 100 point reserve Multipower with 10 50 point Ultra-slots costs 150.
  

Both of your versions are functionally identical before including any other additional limitations.

 

So far, I'm with you, but not sure why we have that Multipower in there.

 

Now compare these with the original 150 point Multipower that is improved to have 10 50 point Multi-slots (or instead: 20 50 point Ultra-slots) which costs 200 real points. 34-35 more points for what essentially is obtainable from either VPP constructions above.

 

Your multipower changes as a zero phase action, automatically. For your VPP to duplicate this effect, it must be Cosmic (0 phase to change is +1, and no skill roll required is +1). A 100 point VPP with -1/2 (max AP 50) and -1/4 (no limitations on powers) with cosmic costs 100 + 50*3/1.75 = 186.

 

The 100 point Multipower with 50 point Multi slots will be less costly w/ 8 slots, more costly w/9 slots.

 

Now, 8 slots in an attack MP is pretty decent, IMO. But a character whose concept demands more versatility would need a VPP instead. It should also be noted that the Multipower is technically not as limited as the VPP. You could choose to put a 100 point slot in, make some Ultra slots to save points, etc. The VPP lacks this versatility. OTOH, the VPP control cost would get a further limitation if it were "attacks only".

 

I could suggest that -1/2 for "max 50 AP" was overly generous, and it should be -1/4, but that just changes the VPP from 186 to 200, and moves us up to 10 multi's or 20 Ultra's for the breakpoint. It doesn't change the underlying issue. Actually, I could also argue that the "no more than 50 AP per power" lkimitation should apply only to the control cost on the last 50 points. At -1/2, the VPP would cost 100 + 3*25/1.25 + 3*25/1.75 = 203, or use -1/4 for the cap and get 220. Again, it just pushes up the breakpoint.

 

Different frameworks serve different purposes. The VPP is best for exceedingly versatile characters. An EC is terible if you're using it for a pool of relates attacks - why would you spend 150 points for an EC of 5 - 50 point attacks when a 5 Ultra slot MP will get the same thing for 75 points (even with mulkti slots, letting you mix & match, is only 100 points)?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPP Question

 

oops!! (re: 166 vs. 186)

 

I should know better than posting to the HSD board after 11pm since my brain appears to get fried after that time.

 

HM

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: VPP Question

 

This doesn't answer the second part of your question (the part about the Lim value for "No further limitations may be taken"), but it does address the first part:

 

I've been using a method similar to Derek's (I didn't come up with the idea, and I don't remember who did. Please forgive me, whoever you are. IIRC, it was on a previous incarnation of these boards.)

 

The Pool Cost is the total Real Points in the VPP - for which you must always pay full price. Real Points is Real Points! So far, no rule change, but...

The Base Control Cost is half the maximum Active Points in any one power in the VPP. This is then modified by any Advantages & Limitations to arive at the Final Control Cost.

 

Thus:

 

A standard VPP could be 100+50 - max 100 RP of powers, each with max 100 AP, for 150 total cost. (I'm assuming no modifiers to the base control cost for the sake of simplicity. A "Cosmic" version would cost 250.)

 

A VPP like you describe could be 100+25 - max 100 RP of powers, each with max 50 AP, for 125 total cost. (175 for the "cosmic" version)

 

A VPP that could have a really big, very limited power could be 100+100 - max 100 RP of powers, each with max 200 AP, for 200 total cost. (A 200 AP power in this VPP would have to have at least -1 in limitations to fit into the pool.) (The cosmic version of this would cost 400 points! This is appropriate when you consider that you'd be getting ANY 200 point power you want at any time, with any -1 limitation.)

 

I see a problem with Derek's method of buying up the Real Points for half price. Real Points should always cost Real Points. Otherwise, you could have a pool like this:

 

50 Base pool +25 to increase Real Points only = 75, +37 Contol Cost

 

This gives 100 Real Points of power for 112 Real Points. It costs only 12 points extra to have ANY TWO 50-point powers you want!

 

Here's an even more obvious example:

 

50 Base pool +50 to increase Real Points only = 100, +50 Contol Cost

 

This gives 150 RP for a cost of 150 RP! Any three 50-point powers you want, and they can be changed for no additional cost!

 

And just for the munchkins who want to try and sneak something past Derek (which I know he's too smart to fall for, but that never seems to stop munchkins from trying):

 

50 Base pool +75 to increase Real Points only = 125, +62 Contol Cost

 

This gives 200 Real points of powers (four 50-pointers that can be changed into anything you want) for the bargain price of 187 character points! Such a deal! Flexible, changable powers cost you 13 points less than fixed powers! For those 13 points you saved, you could buy a Power skill roll of 16-, which is enough to change one of your 50-pointers in combat on an 11-! All for the same price you'd pay for four unchangable 50-pointers!

 

With "my" method (apologies again to whomever actually did come up with it), you'll have to spend 10 points more than with Derek's method. But look on the bright side: It saves you 10 points over Hugh's method!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPP Question

 

Thanks for the excellent breakdown Phil.

 

HM

[zornwil]

Re: VPP Question

 

Hmmm, the Unified Framework Doc Democracy and I were working on seems to address this, should return back to that, I need to really do a bunch of test cases with CU characters.