Combat initiative and the Speed Chart

[Xiawarr]

mudpyr8,

Sounds sort of like the cards from the Torg system. Any chance I could get a copy of your fate card rules?

 

I can be reached at clendnn@pacbell.net

 

Thanks again,

Keith (aka Xiawarr)

[Guest Keneton]

Still Holes In Random Methods

 

I'm glad the personal stuff is out of the way. I can see how you may have taken my statements as inflamatory, but I was only attempting to incite discussion. Lets return to the random Speed issue. I think the end issue is for another thread.

 

Regarding Random Speed (so far all solutions given). Unless I am missing something they all still fail to make the game more simple, in fact mess things up quite a bit. Here is why.

 

1. You may no longer use any maneuver with the takes extra phase element including Haymaker as this is likely to burn a phase.

2. You can randomly screw yourself out of recovering from being stunned or knocked out.

3. You cannot accurately simulate a "countdown to doomsday" fight scene.

4. No power with the takes extra Time could be taken without burning phases in at least some circumstance.

5. By looking at the card stacks and the dice modifiers the players will be able to tell the speeds of the villains.

6. Continous powers do not mesh with this sytem.

7. Vehicle movement will not work wth this sytem.

8. Characters may never be able to save falling normals or deal with segmented movements at all.

9. You can never abort a phase from the next turn.

10. You do not know when you can abort again as your phase may not come up at your Dex.

11. Snapshot, Hipshot, and Hurry no longer work.

 

Well this is off the top of my head. Speed is an integral part of the system. I ma sure ingeniuos players can come up with a system that works to make Speed more random, but you will have to deal with at least a few of these issues. I am sure the solutions are simple, but once again the solution is worse than the problem.

 

I am not saying Hero or Bust. I am saying the alternative to this problem is a bigger problem.

 

[Hierax]

Speed - Roll d12's

 

Here's my suggestion for an alternative:

 

Roll a d12 for each point of SPD your character has; the numbers on the dice are the phases in which you act (either reroll duplicates or move them to the next open segment).

 

Same number of actions, randomly mixed up instead of always the same.

 

The dice sit right there on the table telling you when it is your phase; read the dice instead of the Speed Chart.

 

Simple.

[Hierax]

Initiatives - Roll for DEX Like STR Damage

 

Here's another alternative:

 

Roll for Initiative as if DEX were STR inflicting damage, highest goes first.

 

10 DEX 2d6

15 DEX 3d6

20 DEX 4d6

...

 

(Or any other method that you want that links DEX to dice.)

 

This way the higher DEX characters usually go first, but not always.

 

(you can use the "Standard Effect Rule" here if you don't want random but the opponent does)

[Agent X]

Re: Speed - Roll d12's

 

Originally posted by Hierax

Here's my suggestion for an alternative:

 

Roll a d12 for each point of SPD your character has; the numbers on the dice are the phases in which you act (either reroll duplicates or move them to the next open segment).

 

Same number of actions, randomly mixed up instead of always the same.

 

The dice sit right there on the table telling you when it is your phase; read the dice instead of the Speed Chart.

 

Simple.

 

That is a really cool idea.

[GradonSilverton]

Real Life Speed 4 vs 2

 

It seems that you are forgetting the Excessive cost for Speed increase!!! for most people we are talking in the neighborhood of 15 points to go from a speend 2 to a 4. If a human Max game, where 4 is the max number, 15 out of my 100 or so points is a big spend. Does this allow for metagaming? sure if that what you call it. Is it perfect reality? Absolutly. Ask any martial artist who has fought in competition. If they are squaring off against an opponent that is 2X their mass but 1/2 their speed, they know it! And they know how many maneuvers they can probably get in before their opponent can take a whack at them. Whats the down side? When that 2x mass opponent swings, if he connects, it hurts alot more than someone my size hitting me. What happened? He paid the points for strength! He trained his strength via weights, ect. Me, I spent points on speed and quickness. Didnt really have time to bulk up, in fact, it was harder to get faster than it would have been to get stronger (ie the Speed point cost.)

 

I believe that the speed chart is one the most realistic and balanced aspect of the Hero system.

[Markdoc]

From the suggestions listed here, few people are suggesting that SPD is not important, or that it shouldn't be.

 

I agree with the post above that a higher SPD character should get an advantage in combat.

 

I don't like the idea that a SPD4 character can square off against a SPD3 and *know* that unless surprised, or trapped under a car, he will always, always, always, always get the first blow AND a chance to abort afterwards.

 

I HAVE martial arts experience - and FITZ who started the thread is a black belt in Aikido. We're both fully aware that faster opponents have an edge and also that you can never be certain of the order in which blows will land.

 

To take specific questions:

 

>>>>1. You may no longer use any maneuver with the takes extra phase element including Haymaker as this is likely to burn a phase.<<<<

 

Umm. No. If you throw a haymaker, it will land at the end of the next segment, just as it currently does, regardless of your SPD. Using a random system merely means you can never be sure your opponent will just stand there docilely waiting for it to land. I rate that a plus.

 

>>>>2. You can randomly screw yourself out of recovering from being stunned or knocked out.<<<<<

 

Again, no. You get your recoveries as and when appropriate. The only difference is that you can't calculate precisley how long you will be out, nor can you plan on getting a recovery every 12 seconds. That means you can't precisely plan you END usage - but again, I like this. Sometimes players and NPCs will run out of steam sooner than they had expected - just like in real life. They'll have to deal with this - just like in real life.

 

>>>>>>3. You cannot accurately simulate a "countdown to doomsday" fight scene.<<<<

 

I have indeed done precisely this with a random SPD system and it worked fine. Time still passes - its just that the number of actions becomes a bit more divorced from the SPD chart (although on average, it is the same). You can't really call this more or less accurate, as both are artificial constructs. Do you really think a 1 phase action (shoot an automatic pistol once) takes exactly the same time as a 1 phase action (run 24 metres)?. Obviously not, but that's how the rules work.

 

>>>4. No power with the takes extra Time could be taken without burning phases in at least some circumstance.<<<<

 

We use this modifier, without problems. The only difference is that you cannot precisely predict *precisely* how many actions someone will get in the intervening time, although you can make a pretty good guess - again, from my point of view, a bonus.

 

>>>>>5. By looking at the card stacks and the dice modifiers the players will be able to tell the speeds of the villains.<<<<<

 

It's a pretty dim player who can't work this out unless the GM is being deliberately tricksy - and in that case do your rolling or cardstacking behind a shield or give your slef some extra cards, which you don't use, just to mess them up.

 

>>>>>6. Continous powers do not mesh with this sytem.<<<<

 

Actually, since continuous powers work on each of your phases, they work exactly as they always have - with the caveat that you cannot say exactly how many actions others will get in those phases - though again, you will have a pretty good idea.

 

>>>>>7. Vehicle movement will not work wth this sytem.<<<<<

 

Umm, why not? We've never had any problems - vehicles have SPD and a move, just like players and work the same way. they are assumed to be moving in between phases, just as players do. I've certainly never assumed a gallopinghorse lunges forward 30 metres in one second then stops stock still for 4 seconds (they'd be hell to stay on, if they did - ptwangggg!)

 

>>>8. Characters may never be able to save falling normals or deal with segmented movements at all.<<<<<

 

Again, not a problem. In the standard system - as in a random one - catching a falling person depends on having a phase to act and enough move. In both cases, as a GM, I'd allow a "dive for cover" style abort for a desperate lunge - but note that can be necessary in both systems.

 

>>>9. You can never abort a phase from the next turn.<<<

 

Umm. Wrong. Aborts are handled exactly as in the standard system - if you abort, you give up your next action. That might be in three seconds or it might be in 6 - but that's how the speed chart system works too.

 

>>>>>10. You do not know when you can abort again as your phase may not come up at your Dex.<<<<<

 

Hmmm. I don't understand this one. Neither your SPD nor your DEX changes. You always act on your DEX, if it is your phase, whether in a randomized system, or the SPD chart. If you have aborted, it is true that in a random system, you can never be 100% sure of when you get a second chance - but that sort of randomness is the point, after all.

 

 

>>>11. Snapshot, Hipshot, and Hurry no longer work.<<<

 

No again - they all work, as they are designed to allow you to go first, or fire and move. If anything, snapshot becomes MORE important in a random system since it means a higher SPD chracter can no longer stroll languidly out from behind cover and shoot, knowing that he has a phase in hand to load his gun and stroll back into cover before his slower opponents can return fire.

 

I've actually seen exactly this happen - a street samurai (SPD6) with a sword is trapped behind a a burned out truck by a bunch of SPD3 corporate goons, who are crouching behind a low wall (they don't know he's out of ammo).

 

On Phase 2, he swarms across the street (full move), and cuts one of them down on a moveby. He's now standing right next to a swarm of heavily armed goons, in his jeans and T shirt. Suicidal, eh? Well, no, he knows they get to go on 4 *after* he does. So on 4 he runs back behind the truck, by the time their DEX rolls around, he's back in cover. For them to move to where they can see him will also take a full move, so they cannot shoot at him. While I have no objection this in principle (cool move, dude!) I do object to the fact that there was not one faintest bit of risk. He KNEW he would act first and he KNEW he could run away again before they shot. Using my current random system, he would know that he had a very good chance of getting away with it - but it's not written in stone.

 

Remember, I am not talking hypothetical here - I've been GM'ing Hero system games for more than 20 years - and using a randomized SPD chart for nearly 8. *I* think it's a big improvement and while some people prefer the chart, many others do not.

 

 

cheers, Mark

[Guest Keneton]

Still too many holes!!

 

I don't think that you are understanding my objections and cleraly you are not using the same random systems touted on this thread. All of my objections are valid.

 

1. Your response to my haymaker argument. Under the random die system If I haymaker in the 6th and then I randomly get to go in the 7th, I burn a phase. I cannot go twice in a phase. It sound like your random sytem does not work this way, but the systems suggested seem to.

2. Regarding knock out. What you propose could work but in this case under your system a person could recover stun and wake up before I get to finish him off or before another stunned character does. Your extra speed is reduced to random chance. You've made Chess into Backgammon.

3. I can't argue about how much time things take. Im talking about a doomsday device counting down from 10 to zero as the characters fight. Too bad you cant save the day becasue you randomly don't have a phase until the 11th and 12th.

4. Uh in this case what palyer would take extra time limitation if he thought he might be standing around with his but hanging out for 4 or 5 segments.

5. You have a good argument regarding the card stacks, but then again This thread has argued metagame from the get-go as the reason to get rid of the speed chart. I am showing you that the solution has another metagame problem, just as big and worse in complication.

6. I see your point but you missed mine. You are really randomizing an already dagerous advantage.

7. Here is why vehicles don't work in this system. Random phases for Four speed car 6,7, 11, 12 Random Phase for Driver 2,3,5,9, and12. OOOPs sorry I cant drive! Had to burn several phases holding to drive and can't control car now. Solution already worse than the problem.

8. I dont think you get this one. Falling is segmented and phases would be random. If someone fell you can abort to a dive but make that dex roll! Aborting with a -10 roll Huh!!! See the pattern. Anything segmented is screwed by the proposed systems. If you have this solved please explain, but I bet once again the solution is worse than the problem.

9. Under your random sytem maybe you can abort from the next turn. Under a few determined so far this would mean possibly aborting until as late as the 10th of the next turn if a 3 Speed and going for the first time that turn at their Dex in the 11th!! "I abort my next turn to save the child. Ok on the 2nd the villain finishes you off and then on the third he finishes oiff the normal anyway. Sorry random dice or cards (not heroic!)

10. I express this as confusion on how the random roll is completed. On the thread some see determined from turn to turn and others from phase to phase. You may not be able to abort if say Under a Presence attack and you hesitate. Then your phase doesnt come up for 5 segemnst and you are the same as cowed by a +10 Presence attack!!!

11. You must know when you have a phase to declare hipshot or hurry. If you hava randomly determined phase, you cannot know ahead of time. Now your system seems to determine before the turn which still works, but others are detremined from segment to segment. In the S2S sytem, these do not work (follow). Under your sytem they would, but. . .

 

Under a determine at randomly at the start of the turn system, you still have the same metagame of knowing when you go, So this whole rules gyration did nothing except possibly make someone go all at the start of the turn or possibly at the end.

 

My argument is that this randomization adds nothing except plausibly unbalanced combats. As a GM I want to know if a combat sould go the characters way or not. A random Chance that the bad guys get front of the turn loaded phases vs the good guys (potentially all acting late in the turn and only able to abort) is game breaking. You may end up standing there as the bad guy shoots you and stills the loot. Even if you abort, your just more in the phase hole.

 

If random is more real to you fine. but to me it seems it will more likely end up producing weird time issues that just dont work. I like a thinking game. I prefer Chess to Backgammon.

 

 

[Hierax]

Randomizing the Speed Chart

 

I agree that randomizing the Speed Chart is a good idea and I can also see where sometimes that absolute certainty of the standard Speed Chart is a good thing for the plot.

 

That's the beauty of the (above) d12 per point of SPD system, you can use the dice if you want random or the chart if you want static, and the two can be used interchangeably

 

-- e.g., standard SPD Chart for minor characters like 'mooks' and the dice for main characters like PCs

 

or use the standard chart for minor encounters and the random dice for major ones where anything can happen.

[Markdoc]

>>>>I don't think that you are understanding my objections and cleraly you are not using the same random systems touted on this thread. All of my objections are valid.<<<<

 

Actually you’re right – some of your objections were not clear to me. I am using one of the systems described – No. 2, I think on the original list.

 

>>>>1. Your response to my haymaker argument. Under the random die system If I haymaker in the 6th and then I randomly get to go in the 7th, I burn a phase. I cannot go twice in a phase. It sound like your random sytem does not work this way, but the systems suggested seem to.<<<<

 

OK, this in fact, I didn’t understand, since you stated “You may not use any maneuver…â€. Of course you CAN use such maneuvers, as I pointed out, but you do run the risk of losing an action – just as you can with the normal SPD chart if you delay to a phase before your next – and yes, I’ve seen it happen, including the argument that followed along the lines of “I should get another action! etc etcâ€.

 

 

>>>2. Regarding knock out. What you propose could work but in this case under your system a person could recover stun and wake up before I get to finish him off or before another stunned character does. Your extra speed is reduced to random chance. You've made Chess into Backgammon.<<<

 

In theory this could happen – although again, this can also happen under the standard SPD chart. The chess versus backgammon analogy is a fair one – it’d be a fool that argued Backgammon was not a game of skill, but there is a large element of chance. As an aside, I prefer Backgammon to Chess. :-)

 

 

>>>>3. I can't argue about how much time things take. Im talking about a doomsday device counting down from 10 to zero as the characters fight. Too bad you cant save the day becasue you randomly don't have a phase until the 11th and 12th.<<<<

 

I suppose it could happen, although it would be highly unlikely. In my case I ran a time-limited doomsday scenario where the players were battling to get hold of a boat before the wave of toxic volcanic gas washed over them - the random system worked fine and that session is remembered as high point in the game.

 

>>>>4. Uh in this case what palyer would take extra time limitation if he thought he might be standing around with his but hanging out for 4 or 5 segments.<<<<

 

Well, plenty of them have, so I guess this point is moot. YOU might not – but obviously other people have no problem with it, although they cannot be described as Hero novices – some of them are published Hero system authors. There is a RISK of exposure – but then again that’s true using the SPD chart – it’s merely there the risk is 100% defined.

 

>>>>5. You have a good argument regarding the card stacks, but then again This thread has argued metagame from the get-go as the reason to get rid of the speed chart. I am showing you that the solution has another metagame problem, just as big and worse in complication.<<<

 

Absolutely not – the problem is not the existence of a metagame – we acknowledge from the beginning that the whole system is artificial. The problemis the difference between a player thinking “I’m faster than he is. I can take him†and “I’m 25% faster than he is. If I go on the defensive now, in three seconds there will be a window when I can attack without fear of retaliationâ€. In other words, not the existence of a metagame – but metagaming itself. Using a GM’s shield doesn’t fall into that category….

 

 

>>>>6. I see your point but you missed mine. You are really randomizing an already dagerous advantage.<<<

 

Ummm. And this makes a difference how, exactly? Well, I can answer that for you, based on years of experience – it doesn’t. Obviously moving from an average of 4 actions per turn from a guaranteed 4 actions per turn will affect continuous. It also affects 0 END, or damage shield and a host of other factors. Since the difference is as often positive as negative, the net effect is big fat zero.

 

>>>>7. Here is why vehicles don't work in this system. Random phases for Four speed car 6,7, 11, 12 Random Phase for Driver 2,3,5,9, and12. OOOPs sorry I cant drive! Had to burn several phases holding to drive and can't control car now. Solution already worse than the problem.<<<<

 

It wasn’t til I got to THIS point that I realized where you were coming from. You have completely misunderstood the way the system works. To make it plain I’ll shout: PHASES ARE NOT DETERMINED RANDOMLY FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL (that would be a complete nightmare for the GM, and the whole point is to make this simpler as well as more fun). They are determined for the game as a whole. So you cannot get a phase where the car acts and the driver does not, unless they have different SPDs – and if they do, this disconnect also happens under the SPD chart. So, as stated, no problem.

 

>>>>8. I dont think you get this one. Falling is segmented and phases would be random. If someone fell you can abort to a dive but make that dex roll! Aborting with a -10 roll Huh!!! See the pattern. Anything segmented is screwed by the proposed systems. If you have this solved please explain, but I bet once again the solution is worse than the problem.<<<<

 

In theory, this could happen, if a) the “catching†character was low SPD and a really unliley series of dice rolls took place. I’ve never seen such a situation, but given the odds of rolling (say) 6 “6â€s on the trot, that’s hardly surprising.

 

>>>>9. Under your random sytem maybe you can abort from the next turn. Under a few determined so far this would mean possibly aborting until as late as the 10th of the next turn if a 3 Speed and going for the first time that turn at their Dex in the 11th!! "I abort my next turn to save the child. Ok on the 2nd the villain finishes you off and then on the third he finishes oiff the normal anyway. Sorry random dice or cards (not heroic!)<<<<

 

See the answer to 7. Can’t happen. If the villain goes on 2, you do too, unless you are SPD1.

 

>>>>>10. I express this as confusion on how the random roll is completed. On the thread some see determined from turn to turn and others from phase to phase. You may not be able to abort if say Under a Presence attack and you hesitate. Then your phase doesnt come up for 5 segemnst and you are the same as cowed by a +10 Presence attack!!! <<<

Fair enough, there are quite different systems being discussed here, so some confusion is to be expected – especially if you haven’t been kicking this issue around for a decade, as some of us have :-). I specified in the first post that I used a “dice determines phase†system. If you use a system where everyone’s phases are out of sync, then this could happen – which is why I would not advocate such an approach (a little randomness good – too much randomness bad).

 

 

>>>>>11. You must know when you have a phase to declare hipshot or hurry. If you hava randomly determined phase, you cannot know ahead of time. Now your system seems to determine before the turn which still works, but others are detremined from segment to segment. In the S2S sytem, these do not work (follow). Under your sytem they would, but. . .<<<<

 

Sure, I’m not arguing that every random system has an equal helping of goodness. What I like about the “dice determines phase†system is that you cannot know when your phase is coming up in advance, though depending on the SPD difference, you can certainly hope to get some “free phasesâ€. That means that the decision to take a snapshot has to be made WHEN THE OPPORTUNITY PRESENTS ITSELF – not planned at headquarters a month earlier.

 

>>>>>>Under a determine at randomly at the start of the turn system, you still have the same metagame of knowing when you go, So this whole rules gyration did nothing except possibly make someone go all at the start of the turn or possibly at the end.<<<<<

 

Agreed, just mushing the phases around and then going in sequence adds little – plus it makes the GM’s job harder – a big minus in my book.

 

>>>>>>My argument is that this randomization adds nothing except plausibly unbalanced combats. As a GM I want to know if a combat sould go the characters way or not. A random Chance that the bad guys get front of the turn loaded phases vs the good guys (potentially all acting late in the turn and only able to abort) is game breaking. You may end up standing there as the bad guy shoots you and stills the loot. Even if you abort, your just more in the phase hole.<<<<

 

Messing phases around randomly between players – I agree. Changing the phases around randomly, changes the picture across the board and does NOT unbalance the game. That’s not speculation, I have run literally hundreds of sessions at a variety of power levels – other GMs use the same system I do and they also have not reported any of these issues you suggest (indeed, some of them cannot occur under any circumstances).

 

To make it clear – here’s what I do. Two PC’s (SPD4) are lying in ambush for 6 city watch (SPD2). When the guards pass them by, they spring out and attack (getting a “free†action since they were prepared and delayed). After that, we go to phases. Since no-one has a SPD higher than 4, I roll a d6 for phases (that will generate some empty phases, in which held actions can be used). I roll a 4. That means SPD 4 and higher go – the PCs get another phase, the guards don’t react (unless they abort). The next phase, I roll again – this time I roll a 5 (empty phase – no-one has a held action, so no-one goes). The third roll is a 1. Everyone has a SPD 1 or higher, so everyone goes – in DEX order – and at the end of the phase everyone gets a post-12 recovery. (Now actually a post-1 :-)). Simple and fast. The players can expect to get roughly twice as many actions as their opponents – they simply cannot predict in what order they will arrive. I have had situations like the above where the players leap into the fray, I roll a bunch of 4’s and the guards all end up dead. That’s counterbalanced by the time I roll all 1’s and the guards put up an unexpectedly fierce resistance. Both events are rare – but neither can be described as unrealistic. The main point for me is a) it is simpler than keeping track of the SPD chart in complicated fights where I might have 20 NPCs with differing SPDs and the players know what they can do and what they can expect – but results are never set 100% in stone. To say this shifts the game entirely to chance is silly – we have andom rolls to hit and for damage. I have certainly played in fights where the mighty fighter could not hit his opponents or put any damage through their 2 DEF armour. I have also played sessions where the mighty fighter was felled by a single lucky shot to the head. But I don’t see anyone proposing a that a sword always does exactly 8 BOD and 20 STUN and that OCV 12 ALWAYS hits DCV 10 and NEVER hits DCV14. A degree of randomness is built into the system, so HERO is not chess – nor would I want it to be.

[Guest Keneton]

Thanks Markdoc for many of your clarifications. They have helped me understand your system. Not ALL of the systems on this board meet my objections, but I do appreciate the fact that you have playtested this for so long.

 

I noted my concerns based on all of the proposed systems. In some only a few problems existed, in others a few more. Thank you for the lively and entertaining debate.

 

If any of the others wish to respond to my concerns about altering speed, please do. I will check this thread from time to time. Specifically the roll a d12 for each speed and deadland card system method. which seem to fail in nearly all of my objections posted above.

 

I look forward to more fun flled chat!!

[CourtFool]

Speed kills.

 

1. Remind me why it is bad for the character to succeed?

2. Why do your players know what their opponent's SPD is?

3. If there is such a big difference between SPD 3 and 4, throw some SPD 4 villians at your players. It is not like the GM is limited to character points.

 

Now this is my own personal feeling, so I am not attacking anyone here, but I really hate any additional randomness. I have lousey luck with dice so the fewer rolls I have to make the better. If you I have to make some kind of roll (with or without butter) for my SPD, I can promise you I will get screwed.

 

It is my opinion that a player who spent ten extra points on SPD should have an advantage. I have never had a problem with players calculating which phase to perform a specific maneuver. Most of my combats are deadly lethal and rarely last longer than two turns. Whoever draws first, wins. Is this bad? Only if you are the slower one.

 

My best tactic for players who abuse a particular rule is to use it right back against them. Let the villians maximize their effectiveness on the SPD chart too.

 

Just my 1¢ worth. Your players are obviously far more devious than mine and enjoy ruining the game by exploiting weakness.

[DMTingle]

Re: Predictability... or not

 

Originally posted by Blackout

I think what you're calling predictability is actually a neat way to demonstrate a character's grasp of tactics and their ability to "size up" their opponents.

 

Of course, you can always throw your players a curve, and have some creatures they encounter start of by holding an action and acting on a different phase than they "should".

 

If you want to abandon the speed chart, though, one thing that worked for us was to take cards numbered 1 through 12, shuffle them, and flip one at a time. Next turn, do the same thing. Much quicker than rolling dice.

 

 

I like this one the best. Leaves everything intact and makes the players think.

[Guest Keneton]

DM Tingle.

 

This method does not work. See my post above for 11 reasons it fails.

[Markdoc]

>>>>1. Remind me why it is bad for the character to succeed?<<<<<

 

That's not the point: as a GM, I have an unlimited universe of player-hurting tools were I to want them. I WANT the players to be heroic.

 

 

>>>2. Why do your players know what their opponent's SPD is?<<<

 

'cos they can read. :-) Seriously, if they leap on a a villian, and he goes on 3, they automatically think "Min SPD4". Using the standard SPD chart he might be 5, or 6 and trying to lull them into a false sense of security, but it doesn't take long to work out.

 

>>>>3. If there is such a big difference between SPD 3 and 4, throw some SPD 4 villians at your players. It is not like the GM is limited to character points.<<<<

 

Done that - but again, getting the drop on the players is not the point. The point is

 

a) to make life simpler for the GM - to get away from the "Umm, it's phase 9 - who goes now? No, Grymm, you aborted on 7, didn't you? Oh wait, I forgot, Thorgall hasn't gone on 8 yet, and by the way, those archers who were delayed, did they shoot, already?"

 

and to avoid the "I'll save my action until 7, 'cos nobody goes then, so I can sweep with all my levels on OCV. Then on 8, I go before them, so I'll switch all my levels to DCV and dodge. On 12 I'll delay again, so if they attack I can dodge, but if they don't attack, then I'll delay until 1 so I can sweep again. I'm going to get a soda now, here's my damage and attack rolls - let me know how it went while I was away"

 

In other words, my goal was to keep the LEVEL of threat the same, but get the players more involved - to make combat more a reactive thing than a carefully plotted-out-in-advance series of moves.

 

For what it's worth, that seems to have worked. By making things more chaotic, lower points characters SEEM more of a threat than they really are, because you can't always assume you'll beat them to the draw,

[CourtFool]

Originally posted by Markdoc

That's not the point: as a GM, I have an unlimited universe of player-hurting tools were I to want them. I WANT the players to be heroic.

 

It sounds to me that by taking advantage of the SPD chart they are being heroic.

 

'cos they can read. :-) Seriously, if they leap on a a villian, and he goes on 3, they automatically think "Min SPD4". Using the standard SPD chart he might be 5, or 6 and trying to lull them into a false sense of security, but it doesn't take long to work out.

 

It seems a few held actions would add some mystery.

 

a) to make life simpler for the GM - to get away from the "Umm, it's phase 9 - who goes now? No, Grymm, you aborted on 7, didn't you? Oh wait, I forgot, Thorgall hasn't gone on 8 yet, and by the way, those archers who were delayed, did they shoot, already?"

 

and to avoid the "I'll save my action until 7, 'cos nobody goes then, so I can sweep with all my levels on OCV. Then on 8, I go before them, so I'll switch all my levels to DCV and dodge. On 12 I'll delay again, so if they attack I can dodge, but if they don't attack, then I'll delay until 1 so I can sweep again. I'm going to get a soda now, here's my damage and attack rolls - let me know how it went while I was away"

 

Am I understanding correctly that using held actions adds unwanted complications? Even with held actions, a higher speed character is eventually going to get that extra phase.

[Old Man]

The problem is one of balance among the players. One point of SPD is about the most effective possible way to spend ten points. At the very least it gives the SPD 4 character +3 DCV and an extra half move versus SPD 3 opponents. As a result, the SPD 4 character sleepwalks through opposition that remains dangerous for the characters who spent their 10 points on strength or dex or levels. That's what makes it hard for the GM--giving the SPD 4 character a hard time without killing off the rest of the group in the process.

[Derek Hiemforth]

IMO, there's nothing wrong with the Speed Chart. When issues of metagaming and predictability arise, it's due to people using player knowledge vs. character knowledge, and not roleplaying their characters faithfully. The characters don't know that Segment 12 is always the best time for a Pushed Haymaker.

 

We've tried a couple of alternative methods for SPD, and found that they were always worse than the Speed Chart.

 

We tried the straight "roll 1d12 and if you roll your SPD or less, you act" method. The problem was that you could have Turns where a character with a 4 SPD got 10 Phases, and Turns where a character with a 7 SPD got 1 Phase. And while this of course didn't happen every Turn, it happened way more often than we wanted to see.

 

So then we tried Steve Perrin's version, where you add 1 to the roll every time you miss. The problem with that one (especially if you're not expecting it) is that it drives up the amount of actions you get. If you've got a 6 SPD, then under that system you will (over time) be going much more than 6 times per Turn. This happens because there will be plenty of times when you make the roll without the bonuses, and when you do, there is no penalty that corresponds with the bonus. In other words, there's a bonus to help you go next time when you fail a roll, but there's no penalty to help keep you from going next time when you succeed with a roll. So your 6 SPD will end up behaving as more like an 8 SPD or something.

 

Also, both dice methods negatively impacted character cooperation. It's nearly impossible to do things like Coordinated Attacks, because you have no idea when your teammate will get an action again; you may end up standing there for half a Turn waiting for them to be able to coordinate with you.

 

We also tried rolling the Phases at the beginning of the Turn and noting when they would occur, so that you always went a number of Phases equal to your SPD, but which Phases varied from Turn to Turn. The problem with that one was that it didn't really solve any of the supposed problems with the Speed Chart. You still knew in advance when you were going to have actions... it just wasn't the same from Turn to Turn.

 

In the end, we realized that the Speed Chart wasn't really the problem.

[Guest Keneton]

Derek:

 

You have just made my point. Thank you. The problem is the alternate solution! The Speed Chart is not a problem at all. If you are having a play balance problem or a tactics problem changing the speed chart WILL NOT SOLVE IT!

 

You will only have a more complicated fix and still have the same metagamers abuse the new system!

 

 

Old Man: How you get this +3 DCV thing by asuming the extra phase is used dodging. . .

Can you knock someone out dodging? Dodging doesnt win fights.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Keneton

Old Man: How you get this +3 DCV thing by asuming the extra phase is used dodging. . .

Can you knock someone out dodging? Dodging doesnt win fights.

He's saying that if your SPD is higher than theirs, you can Dodge on all of theirPhases and still smack them in your remaining one(s).

[Guest Keneton]

I know wht he meant, but its just not true. Holding can negate small speed adavantages. (Read the entire thread for my examples).

 

Sure Speed is a good buy, but so is STR. for 10 points you get . . .

+2 DC, (cost 8 elsewhere)

+5 Stun (cost 5 elsewhere)

+2 Recovery (cost 4)

+2 PD (cost 2)

adds to max lift (no cost added)

+2 Leaping (2 points)

 

Total Value. . .21 points for 10. Best buy in the game. Don't worry about Speed!

[CourtFool]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

He's saying that if your SPD is higher than theirs, you can Dodge on all of theirPhases and still smack them in your remaining one(s).

 

So the character with a higher SPD dances around his opponent waiting for an opening to make his fatal blow? Personally, I see nothing wrong with this.

[Guest Keneton]

Thanks CF!

 

I am glad that you see that there is nothing wrong with Speed.

 

Some characters are stronger, some are faster, and some have more defense. I don't see what is wrong with that at all!

 

This thread started with several systems. Some were ok, some very bad. None stood up to all of the critiques given. The Speed Chart was shown to be clearly superior. Now the arguments are reduced to "Speed is unbalancing."

 

I think that this thread is beat.

 

The Defense Rests. . .

[Greenstar]

I'm not so sure. I've considered things, and I can't seee a horrid objection to the "deck of cards 1-12" method. It adds a small amount of randomness to the play and helps cut down ont he metagaming aspect (and please, don't use the "IC vs. OOC issue here. That's impossible to really adjudicate well) without crucifying the system.

 

But the bottom line is, why not use what works for you? There seems to be a lot of "religious war" sentiment in this thread.

[CourtFool]

Originally posted by Greenstar

I'm not so sure. I've considered things, and I can't seee a horrid objection to the "deck of cards 1-12" method. It adds a small amount of randomness to the play and helps cut down ont he metagaming aspect (and please, don't use the "IC vs. OOC issue here. That's impossible to really adjudicate well) without crucifying the system.

 

I would still be against this system because with my luck I will draw a bunch of high cards and the SPD 3 grunts would get all the low cards.

 

Originally posted by Greenstar

But the bottom line is, why not use what works for you? There seems to be a lot of "religious war" sentiment in this thread.

 

A good point, but I think people feel very strongly about this as I do. I am sure we have all played in a game where the GM used a house rule we hated. That is where the anger is coming from. But hey...what does a fat, hairy llama know?