Pistols = Reduced Penetration

[RDU Neil]

Just a question... If the default for pistol round damage was considered to have "reduced penetration"... what might be the downside in a "game mechanic" arena.

 

Some caveats... I don't want to get into a discussion of all the different real world types of ammunition... nor discussions on "bullets do damage based on what they hit in the body..." or any of that.

 

I'm simply looking at the fact that...

1) I want to avoid escalating damage and armor defenses that seems to happen when attempting to differentiate between pistols and rifles rounds in terms of damage/lethality to human like targets.

 

2) I like to keep things as simple as possible... no charts or new rules or complications... just a simple general rule.

 

3) I'd like the simple rule to represent the fact that pistol use in Champs seems fine against unarmored targets, but with armor, pistol effectiveness just drops significantly... while at the same time, rifle rounds are still quite effective...

 

4)... but rifle rounds (to penetrate armor) often have to be WAY too high in damage than they should be.

 

5) All of the above tends to drive armor and vehicle and object defenses much higher than is probably realistic, because of radical swings in "small arms" damage.

 

Anyway... back to the original question. I think making pistols "reduced pen" would alleviate much of this mess. Body armor could remain low (3 defense say) and still stop most of a pistol shot... while rifles, at 2d6 or so, would penetrate a great deal.

 

What, if any, would be head scratching, "that doesn't seem right", effects of a general "pistol rounds are reduced pen" ruling. In other words, what problems might this cause, even if it solves some other ones.

 

(Oh, and I'm talking Heroic level here... not superheroic. This is equipment... not powers, we are talking about.)

 

Thanks

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

Bring back Piercing, add a few pts to rifles.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

Bring back Piercing' date=' add a few pts to rifles.[/quote']

 

I actually do this... as well as the pistols reduced pen. That's another thread though. I'm just wondering if I'm overlooking some big "ugh" issue with making pistols reduced penetration as standard.

 

(I have AP rules that subtract the body rolled from the defenses, instead of halving. I give 7.62 round light AP (one of the two dice is AP) and would give .50 Cal RAIs and the like 2d6AP, out of 3d6K total. That works really well. I think a 5.56 round would be flat 2d6-1. All of this is assuming standard load ammunition. Once you get into actual AP rounds, etc. Things change.)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

Other Options:

 

a) Build armor with extra DEF vs Pistols.

Build armor with linked Dmg Reduction vs Pistols.

c) Make Rifles AP

d) Build Rifles with extra dice Only To Get Past Armor

e) Use the Piercing Adder or Semi Armor Piercing Advantage in Dark Champions for Rifles

[Storn]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

The problem is, military bullet proof vests ARE stopping 7.62 rounds... almost cold. This has only happened in the current situation in Iraq... in Desert storm, just a few years ago, the vests were not stopping military rifle rounds. Amazing what a couple years of technology does. Or in other words, the armor HAS escalated.

 

So, the best armor should be around a 8,9? That stops the average roll of a 7.62, but allows for the "yeah, it didn't penetrate, but I got a broken rib" sfx. And of course, civilian flak vests might not be the same grade (still much, much better than yesteryear), keep them where they've always been, 6 pd. In old Danger International days, teh best vest was only 4 pd.

 

Now, to pistols going red pentration? A d6+1, we have to roll, what two 1/2d6s? Take armor off ea. die, add them for the stun multiplier, multiply the stun multiplier. That is fairly complicated in place of 1 die roll calculation.

 

I think keep it just as is. Modern defenses have caught up with the game system. A 6 pd vest will defeat most handguns, even 1 1/2d6, where a max of 9 body is going to get past. That does the job. Target is hurt. But alive.

 

If you want to put someone down who has a vest, aim for the head or the thigh. Or throw so much lead down field that eventually a head or thigh shot will happen. Which means you have to allow for hit location mechanically. Which is fine for Dark Champions... not so much for Champions.

 

I would also say in a realistic (or more realistic DC game), vests should not be the Armor power, they should be Damage Resistance... ie don't soak up the Stun.

[gewing]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

Minor points:

 

Please be clear as to whether you are discussing 7.62 x51mm Nato, &.62x54mmRimmed RUssian, or 7.62x39mm Russian a la AK47.

 

also...

 

The interceptor armor now used in iraq WILL stop mulitple 7.62x39 hitsIIRC Including AP). I am not certain, but I believe it will stop either of the other two unless equipped with AP ammo.

 

The new SAPI version will stop AP 7.62x51mm, afaik, the Special forces are buying it, the weight is about 18 lbs instead of 16.

 

The problem is, military bullet proof vests ARE stopping 7.62 rounds... almost cold. This has only happened in the current situation in Iraq... in Desert storm, just a few years ago, the vests were not stopping military rifle rounds. Amazing what a couple years of technology does. Or in other words, the armor HAS escalated.

 

So, the best armor should be around a 8,9? That stops the average roll of a 7.62, but allows for the "yeah, it didn't penetrate, but I got a broken rib" sfx. And of course, civilian flak vests might not be the same grade (still much, much better than yesteryear), keep them where they've always been, 6 pd. In old Danger International days, teh best vest was only 4 pd.

 

Now, to pistols going red pentration? A d6+1, we have to roll, what two 1/2d6s? Take armor off ea. die, add them for the stun multiplier, multiply the stun multiplier. That is fairly complicated in place of 1 die roll calculation.

 

I think keep it just as is. Modern defenses have caught up with the game system. A 6 pd vest will defeat most handguns, even 1 1/2d6, where a max of 9 body is going to get past. That does the job. Target is hurt. But alive.

 

If you want to put someone down who has a vest, aim for the head or the thigh. Or throw so much lead down field that eventually a head or thigh shot will happen. Which means you have to allow for hit location mechanically. Which is fine for Dark Champions... not so much for Champions.

 

I would also say in a realistic (or more realistic DC game), vests should not be the Armor power, they should be Damage Resistance... ie don't soak up the Stun.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

Military body armor is much higher... I'm talking about civilian, street cop body armor. I think 6 def is WAY to high for that kind of light body armor. I think it should be 3 rPD to 4 at most. The heavy Interceptor stuff, yeah, I'd put it at 9 Def... maybe even hardened.

 

Basically, my feeling is that pistol rounds do close to the right amount of damage against unarmored targets, but get stopped cold by most light and heavy body armors... I don't want to change pistol or armor levels... so reduced pen seems to do the job with the simplest rules. (Rolling half die isn't any more complicated than anything else we do.)

 

As for the "Interceptor stops Russian 7.62 rounds cold" well, I'd like to hear more than the anecdotal stories. What is the average over time. Half the times the bullet stops, half the time it penetrates? What? (I'm not saying that is the case, I'm just wondering...) Certainly body armor doesn't make you invulnerable, and making those numbers too high (over 9 for the best of the best) makes the whole game go out of whack. To have character unafraid of military small arms certainly doesn't reflect ANYTHING remotely like I want to play, and escalating armor does just that. I certainly don't think our troops in Iraq run around blythley in the face of AK fire.

[gewing]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

From what I have been reading, the interceptor might well be 12 or 13 def. I find it almost hard to believe, given that the "body armor" they issued in Vietnam to some Helicopter door gunners was about the same resistance, and the iirc breastplate weighed 30lbs, same for the leggings. I believe the mechanism is a hard plate that deforms/fragments/tumbles the bullet, then the aramid fibers stop it, with the force more dispersed it is easier.

 

Our medics aren't having to treat many torso gunshot wounds, unless they come in at odd angles...

 

Arms, legs, etc, though are another story. I think Strategypage.com had an article a month or two ago.

 

 

 

 

 

Military body armor is much higher... I'm talking about civilian, street cop body armor. I think 6 def is WAY to high for that kind of light body armor. I think it should be 3 rPD to 4 at most. The heavy Interceptor stuff, yeah, I'd put it at 9 Def... maybe even hardened.

 

Basically, my feeling is that pistol rounds do close to the right amount of damage against unarmored targets, but get stopped cold by most light and heavy body armors... I don't want to change pistol or armor levels... so reduced pen seems to do the job with the simplest rules. (Rolling half die isn't any more complicated than anything else we do.)

 

As for the "Interceptor stops Russian 7.62 rounds cold" well, I'd like to hear more than the anecdotal stories. What is the average over time. Half the times the bullet stops, half the time it penetrates? What? (I'm not saying that is the case, I'm just wondering...) Certainly body armor doesn't make you invulnerable, and making those numbers too high (over 9 for the best of the best) makes the whole game go out of whack. To have character unafraid of military small arms certainly doesn't reflect ANYTHING remotely like I want to play, and escalating armor does just that. I certainly don't think our troops in Iraq run around blythley in the face of AK fire.

[Lupus]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

From what I have been reading, the interceptor might well be 12 or 13 def. I find it almost hard to believe, given that the "body armor" they issued in Vietnam to some Helicopter door gunners was about the same resistance, and the iirc breastplate weighed 30lbs, same for the leggings. I believe the mechanism is a hard plate that deforms/fragments/tumbles the bullet, then the aramid fibers stop it, with the force more dispersed it is easier.

 

Our medics aren't having to treat many torso gunshot wounds, unless they come in at odd angles...

 

Arms, legs, etc, though are another story. I think Strategypage.com had an article a month or two ago.

How wide is the coverage of the defence? Are we talking a full flak jacket here, or is it the vest inserts?

[RDU Neil]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

The only article I could find on Strategypage.com.

 

http://www.strategypage.com/search.asp?target=d:\inetpub\strategypageroot\dls\docs\20030415.htm&search=Interceptor

 

It will be interesting to see how they stack up after the hits can be analyzed post-war.

 

I do wonder if many of the bullets vs. armor issues come from the wide swing (2-12 on 2d6 as an example) of bullet damage. Average attack is 7, seems reasonable, but 12 is possible, which seems high. (Hit location should take care of high damage shots.) Bullets would probably work better if they had a smaller range (4-8 as example) with Hit Location... dealing with the lighter and more excessive damages. Armor wouldn't have to be so high to be considered to "Stop" the bullet.

 

From the example... while the vest is "rifle proof" it does put them on their ass (knock down) knocking the wind out of the (stunned) and leave a majore bruise (1 body gets through) or cracked rib (2 body gets through.) For a 7.62 (Russian) round, that means 9 defense, with really high damage rolls (10-12 on 2d6) getting through. Problem is, the "average" shot does the 1 body Con stunned... so that means, on a 12 CON soldier, at least 13 stun get through. Sounds to me like 7-8 body on average, 1 getting through, means 6 Defense. Unfortunately, due to the large swing in damage, you'd have 9-12 points tearing up the target much more often than is reflective of actual results.

 

Again, it seems that the large range of potential damage is more the issue than anything. (I'm talking Heroic level here, where there is the tendency to want to better reflect "reality" than supers.) A Rifle that did d6 + 4... a 5-10 range of damage, would be more "real"... in reflecting the kind of damage described in the article. (Vest of 8 would stop Body cold better than 50% of the time, and only a couple body would get through (bruising, cracked ribs) the rest of the time.)

[gewing]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

I agree the broad range of damage is part of the problem.

 

The most realistic system would probably have a bullet do a VERY narrow range of damage (unless a design that can fail dramatically, like an HE round) and have a Very broad range of possible effects based on hit location, angle, etc.

 

Hmm, WHere are my Phoenix command books?

 

 

Armor penetration in real life seems to be primarily subject to two variables. ANgle of incidence and an iirc +/-10% round to round variation.

 

A round that hits armor at 0 degrees (perpendicular) will penetrate iirc twice as much as hitting at a 60 degree angle of incidence.

 

The range of damage available from die rolls with most weapons in Hero system is good, in that it sort of simulates the weird effects. Two guys in a shootout in the apartment building corridor. ONe takes 5 rounds of FMG .45 ACP to the torso, takes the bus to the ER. The other takes one round or .22 lr to the chest and dies. OKAY, that one is a little harder to simulate... bleeding I guess.

[gewing]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

IIRC the inserts are pretty big. say 3/4 coverage front and rear chest/stomach?

 

THe rest of the armor is proof versus pistols, but there is still the chance of the shot into the armpit, or the neck, or whatever.

 

IIRC The program that developed the INterceptor armor was working on a version for police. COncealed vest with a chest trauma plate that will stop rifle fire, and a similarly protected strip down the spine. The rest will stop pistols.

 

I think it was a NIJ and DOD joint program.

 

 

How wide is the coverage of the defence? Are we talking a full flak jacket here' date=' or is it the vest inserts?[/quote']

[gewing]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

I just checked the manufacturers site. The plates are 8x10 or 10x12, and all seem to AS a STAND ALONE stop 7.62x51mm!!! Including the thinnest version

 

http://www.pointblankarmor.com/plates_military.asp

[Storn]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

Okay, try this variant on for size. ONLY for Heroic. Let Police and Civilian armors (remember, very, very good civilian armor can be had.... it is just all on back order... I've heard reporters talk about this extensively who are going over to Iraq) be rPD 6.

 

Up the Stun Multiplier across the board by 1 for pistol ammo. A 9mm does 1d6+1x4... or hit location gets a +1 stun multiplier across the board.

 

Now, bullets might take someone outta the fight through Stun.... and certainly the incidents of Con Stun will go up. But two slugs into someones vest should slow them down a bit. Two slugs into someone's chest who DOESN'T have armor is going to be seriously hurtin' in terms of Stun and might even be unconcious. That seems pretty gritty to me.

 

Now, rifle ammo, with its higher velocity, more tapered rounds, we can 'justify' game-balanace-mechanics wise ... not getting the extra Stun multiplier. Because even though it is doing more damage, the bullet is punching through tissue with more force. When it 'tumbles' or hits bone and does all the wierd stuff bullets do, that is simply reflect that 5.56mm or 7.62mm rolled an 9,10,11,12, 13 on its damage dice. 11 Body into the chest, even vs. a vest, results in 33 Stun. Even if only 2 or 3 Body get past a military vest, that is still probably 19 Stun or thereabouts (assumed 9rpd vest, 5 pd target).

 

The high end of the damage roll examples: The civilian vest of 6rp vs. 9 body from a rilfe round is doing 3 Body past def, 16 Stun (based on a 5pd target). Still a hefty amount of damage. But the pistol round doing 6 Body, bounces, x4 stun, does 13 Stun. No vest, the pistol round does 6 Body and 24 Stun. The rifle round does 9 Body and 27 Stun. ow.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

I wouldn't want to raise Stun Multipliers. They are already too high, IMO. Hit locations deal well enough with increasing stun. More and more, I've become convinced that I've been brainwashed too much by movies, where pistol shots seem to be really effective... when that shouldn't be as much the case.

 

Way I look at it. Start with what seems reasonable for an average damage to an average man from an average hit by a 9mm round in the chest.

 

4 Body, 12 Stun... Con stunned, hurt, but not dying. 2 of these, might be dying, and now just below 0 in Stun... 3 of these, immediate hospitalization or dead.

 

That seems right for 1d6+1 (Chest is x3 Stun) If so, build from there. .45 is 1 1/2d6, etc.

 

Figure that a civilian/cop vest that can stop a 9mm pretty reliably is 4 Defense (good hits get 1-3 body through, ribs and bruising) Thing is, I don't think a .45 or even a .44 is all that much better at penetrating... though the impact is greater. Don't want to increase the raw damage that gets through that much. Reduced pen reflects this well.

 

(This also gets into the classic RPG dilemna, where players want their pistol wielding gunmen to be hell on wheels, mowing down guys... but hate it when the badguys seem to do unreasonable damage back with "just a pistol." The fact is, while useful, pistols should never be counted on as primary weapons. If you use one, even a nice Kimber .45 or a bigger round... you should NEVER expect one shot kills, or even incapacitates. Pistols should always be considered useful in two-three shot groupings... and even then likely not totally kill the guy, especially if he has body armor.)

 

The fact is that a pistol is significantly less damaging (armored or unarmored target) than a rifle round... and this should be reflected by more than a 1/2 die adder. In fact, I think a rifle round should be kind of a 9-12 damage range on average, but to get this, you have to have so many dice that the high end damage can go through tanks. Suddenly you have all this escalating armor and object defense that is necessary to take care of the 1/3 chance of a swingy high roll, and things get out of whack.

 

Anyway, anybody have any links that show how standard 5.56 ball ammunition stands up against body armor? (Non-plated stuff)

[RDU Neil]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

I just checked the manufacturers site. The plates are 8x10 or 10x12, and all seem to AS a STAND ALONE stop 7.62x51mm!!! Including the thinnest version

 

http://www.pointblankarmor.com/plates_military.asp

 

I'd like to see more info on what these "steel plates" are made from... since you have .87 inches thick weighing considerably more than the full 1 inch thick (and also stopping more).

 

What I'm beginning to see here is that body armor is developing better ways of carrying good old fashioned steel armor, rather than new fangled tech that magically stops bullets.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

Now, to pistols going red pentration? A d6+1, we have to roll, what two 1/2d6s? Take armor off ea. die, add them for the stun multiplier, multiply the stun multiplier. That is fairly complicated in place of 1 die roll calculation.

 

As a tangent, not really doing or knowing too much about guns or vest, just a quick game mechanic thing here - for simplicities sake when our group has run into Reduced Penetration, instead of the above rules defined way of running it, say "Double defence vs Body of the attack". Mechanically it is very close, and much simpler to do. Sort of an body only reverse AP.

[gewing]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

They seem to use a mix of steel, ceramic, and armid fibers, often stabilized by an epoxy or some such matrix.

 

 

As to 5.56 vs non plated (soft) armor? Can you say hot knife through butter?

 

It IS possible to stop it, but...

 

IMO

 

NO concealable soft vest imo will do so, and it is EASY to stop any 9mm except one of the dedicated AP ones.

 

 

 

I'd like to see more info on what these "steel plates" are made from... since you have .87 inches thick weighing considerably more than the full 1 inch thick (and also stopping more).

 

What I'm beginning to see here is that body armor is developing better ways of carrying good old fashioned steel armor, rather than new fangled tech that magically stops bullets.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

They seem to use a mix of steel, ceramic, and armid fibers, often stabilized by an epoxy or some such matrix.

 

 

As to 5.56 vs non plated (soft) armor? Can you say hot knife through butter?

 

It IS possible to stop it, but...

 

IMO

 

NO concealable soft vest imo will do so, and it is EASY to stop any 9mm except one of the dedicated AP ones.

 

Bingo! This is my understanding as well, and as such, the reason for my initial question. How to effectively build soft armor that WILL stop pistol rounds... but rifle rounds (even non-AP rounds) will punch through "hot knife thorugh butter".

 

To me this means keeping soft armors relatively low in defense, while pistols become reduced pen. Then rifle rounds (more damage, and non reduced pen) still a great deal of damage through... and you might even consider 7.62 Nato to have light AP. Put plates in the armor, you get increased Def plus Hardened, and now you are stopping rifle rounds better, without making the armor way high (because you haven't had to make rifle rounds do more damage).

 

Yeah... I think I'd roll with the pistols = reduced pen (assuming standard ammo..) for my Heroic level games.

 

Oh, and Lord M... yeah either double armor or just halve the body rolled (round up on one, down on the other for odd damage) and apply. Simple... thanks.

[gewing]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

For a long time I have been thinking about allowing "semi-ap" that gives a little less defenses. Piercing might be better.

 

ANother way is to give the armor a -0 lim "1/2 effect versus HIgh velocity penetration) or some such.

 

Actually standard soft armor should have several limitations. Far less effective versus cutting/stabbing attacks too.

 

HMMM... 2 def + x def only versus low velocity bullets?

 

 

 

Bingo! This is my understanding as well, and as such, the reason for my initial question. How to effectively build soft armor that WILL stop pistol rounds... but rifle rounds (even non-AP rounds) will punch through "hot knife thorugh butter".

 

To me this means keeping soft armors relatively low in defense, while pistols become reduced pen. Then rifle rounds (more damage, and non reduced pen) still a great deal of damage through... and you might even consider 7.62 Nato to have light AP. Put plates in the armor, you get increased Def plus Hardened, and now you are stopping rifle rounds better, without making the armor way high (because you haven't had to make rifle rounds do more damage).

 

Yeah... I think I'd roll with the pistols = reduced pen (assuming standard ammo..) for my Heroic level games.

 

Oh, and Lord M... yeah either double armor or just halve the body rolled (round up on one, down on the other for odd damage) and apply. Simple... thanks.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

For a long time I have been thinking about allowing "semi-ap" that gives a little less defenses. Piercing might be better.

 

ANother way is to give the armor a -0 lim "1/2 effect versus HIgh velocity penetration) or some such.

 

Actually standard soft armor should have several limitations. Far less effective versus cutting/stabbing attacks too.

 

HMMM... 2 def + x def only versus low velocity bullets?

 

Yah... in my old Cyber-Hero campaign (way long ago) I played around with giving armors a certain qualifier "Soft" or "Hard"... soft was 1/2 vs. cutting/piercing type attacks... hard stopped bullets and HV rounds... then you could "Harden" the hard stuff (this was sci-fi after all) for major armor vs. HV-AP rounds and the like. Each one got progressively heavier and harder to conceal... the classic "armor that looks like clothing" was obviously soft and easily bypassed, but important because running around in heavy armor attracted the wrong kind of attention, most times.

 

Now... if I go with Reduced Pen (which I do think works well vs. body armor as described above) are there OTHER objects that pistol rounds DO penetrate that would suddenly become resistant? I don't think so (regular car doors are just 3 PD anyway... interior walls are 2 at best... in fact I think a lot of inanimate objects have much too high "resistant" defense. I think a piece of drywall should have 1 rPD and 4-6 regular PD... this would indicate that it was hard to punch your way through, but bullets go through "hot knife" and all that. Sheet metal would be similar. Has low resistant defense, but it's flexibility gives it higher PD vs non killing attacks (hard to beat your way through sheet metal with a baseball bat). That just gets us off on the issues that Hero has with "breaking things" which has always been a major fault of the system.

[Lupus]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

I like the idea of piercing points. I've been tinkering with the idea, if I ever run Dark Champions, of retooling the whole gun list, with piercing points listed for each weapon - in positive and negative values. Negative values subtract from armour, positive values add to it. Rifle bullets I'm thinking of putting around 3 piercing points automatically.

 

Armour, meanwhile, can have hardened ratings which offset piercing points. The full-on military body armour described by Gewing could be as many as 5 points of hardened (woot!), thus providing protection even against AP rounds from heavy rifles.

 

But I often go overboard with extra rules. I'm plotting Fantasy Hero right now, and thinking of rewriting THAT whole weapons list to include piercing points, and different damage/piercing ratings for different ways of using weapons... like thrust vs slice, etc. It'll prolly get complex and still end up being unrealistic anyway, so I'm not sure I should bother.

[gewing]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

If you start, send me any notes. SOUnds interesting.

 

If I run a Fantasy game, I'll probably use the weapons charts on the Surbrook Site.

 

I like the idea of piercing points. I've been tinkering with the idea, if I ever run Dark Champions, of retooling the whole gun list, with piercing points listed for each weapon - in positive and negative values. Negative values subtract from armour, positive values add to it. Rifle bullets I'm thinking of putting around 3 piercing points automatically.

 

Armour, meanwhile, can have hardened ratings which offset piercing points. The full-on military body armour described by Gewing could be as many as 5 points of hardened (woot!), thus providing protection even against AP rounds from heavy rifles.

 

But I often go overboard with extra rules. I'm plotting Fantasy Hero right now, and thinking of rewriting THAT whole weapons list to include piercing points, and different damage/piercing ratings for different ways of using weapons... like thrust vs slice, etc. It'll prolly get complex and still end up being unrealistic anyway, so I'm not sure I should bother.

[gewing]

guys, this blew me away!!!

 

a 17.5 lb vest that can stop 7.62 x51mm SLAP armor piercing ammo!!!

 

 

 

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_PArmor,00.html

[Pappystein]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

The problem is, military bullet proof vests ARE stopping 7.62 rounds... almost cold. This has only happened in the current situation in Iraq... in Desert storm, just a few years ago, the vests were not stopping military rifle rounds. Amazing what a couple years of technology does. Or in other words, the armor HAS escalated.

 

Not quite true. The new BR vests are stoping 7.62x39 Russian rounds which are a rather low velocity bullet. Put the same vests up against a 7.62x51mm Nato Round and it will fly right through it (Higher velocity on similar sectional density). However that does not help the inital question.

 

I just posted the other day in the main Hero system disscussion board about what the origional question is.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=563277&postcount=1

 

No new charts but during creation you have to take a couple of extra steps. Eg a 9x19mm Nato round fired from an MP-5 Submachine gun is going to penetrate more armor than the EXACT SAME 9x19mm Round fired from a Smith and Wesson ASP. The difference? Barrel lenght!

 

Top it off and with modifications to your damage roll you can simulate all the differing types of bullets out there. Eg a Pre Fragmented safty Glaser round would be treated as an Energy Blast not a RKA etc... I have not aquired the 5th ed Dark Champions yet so I do not know how detailed it is. However what I am proposing to complete (givin enough time and testing) would be to overhaul the Gun CREATION side of the game. Right now as I state in the above thread I have over FIFTY bullet/Barrel combinations for 9x19mm Nato (including the 9x19mm NATO Sub Sonic and 9x19mm Parabelum related rounds.)

 

If you want to put someone down who has a vest, aim for the head or the thigh. Or throw so much lead down field that eventually a head or thigh shot will happen. Which means you have to allow for hit location mechanically. Which is fine for Dark Champions... not so much for Champions.

 

I use the Hit location chart in Champions in a limited way. For my "Super Heros" that want to pretend they are just Normal Joes (I have 2 of them in my current campaign) I have them roll the hit location chart for their gun shots. My Olympian and my "I am Captian Ameri.. errr Major Liberty!" characters I do not give this mechanic to as they both deal in inate powers. So if it is a Focual Power it tends to hit the Chart using a fixed StunX etc. If it is an inate power I do NOT let them roll on the chart unless they are going to SET for a phase to take carful aim (then you are dealing in OCV modifiers to hit a spec location... just happens to be on the same chart:)

 

Sorry I do not have a defenitive mechanic YET but I am slowly working on this project.

 

Craig P