Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

[OddHat]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

To be fair, Steve and other official Hero Games types have pointed out that "Hunted by Champions" is just a place-holder for "Hunted by Hero Group", one with a little bit more flavor. I can get into the fun of litteral-minded mocking as much as anyone, but in the end the CU is an RPG setting. She might as well be "Hunted By Insert Name Here".

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

To be fair' date=' Steve and other official Hero Games types have pointed out that "Hunted by Champions" is just a place-holder for "Hunted by Hero Group", one with a little bit more flavor. I can get into the fun of litteral-minded mocking as much as anyone, but in the end the CU is an RPG setting. She might as well be "Hunted By Insert Name Here". [/quote']

 

Which was the intention of the Disad as written.

 

And people who equate a 30% rise in points with a 30% rise in power level need to go back to Hero school. :-)

 

Most PC teams, throwing an average 15-25 attacks per turn with about a 30-50% chance of hitting, getting from 10-15 points past her defenses, will overwhelm her. Smart tactical play can hold her at bay until her END runs out, which, by design, is more of a weakness for her in 5ED than 4th.

 

She's a scary opponent, but she's not a Gravitar, let alone a Destroyer. On the other hand, give her a good VIPER team as backkup, and she becomes a whole different problem.

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

...She might as well be "Hunted By Insert Name Here".

Which suddenly strikes me as a good name for an NPC.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

It would be interesting if folks run a Viperia vs. Champions battle and report on it... like the 'Champions vs. Mechanon' battle reports previously.

 

Yeah, yeah - I *know* it doesn't answer the question of 'More Powerful' - but then, it's not meant to be. Just a different, interesting excercize.

 

Which is why I'll run it this weekend unless someone else wants to, just like I did with Mechanon :-)

[OddHat]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Which is why I'll run it this weekend unless someone else wants to' date=' just like I did with Mechanon :-)[/quote']

 

Groovy. I hope you'll let Witchcraft get funky with her VPP; it makes her much more effective.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

I'd assume it doesn't reflect the ability of the Champions to beat her in a fight' date=' but rather their ability to foil her devious schemes - same for Mechanon. This is something that heroes are extremely good at.[/quote']

 

The problem is. . . she doesn't *have* schemes. She's basically a living WMD for VIPER, a weapon they basically aim at an overt enemy and have her beat the crap out of. With her, a "scheme" means "she closes to melee range in a group of lots of enemies, and then hauls out a brick trick to hit them all at once."

[Metaphysician]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Which was the intention of the Disad as written.

 

And people who equate a 30% rise in points with a 30% rise in power level need to go back to Hero school. :-)

 

Most PC teams, throwing an average 15-25 attacks per turn with about a 30-50% chance of hitting, getting from 10-15 points past her defenses, will overwhelm her. Smart tactical play can hold her at bay until her END runs out, which, by design, is more of a weakness for her in 5ED than 4th.

 

She's a scary opponent, but she's not a Gravitar, let alone a Destroyer. On the other hand, give her a good VIPER team as backkup, and she becomes a whole different problem.

 

The problem is, the Champions at least won't get the 15-25 attacks per turn, because pretty much every time she hits anyone with anything, they get Stunned. And thats not factoring in all the actions that can't be used as attacks ( due to not being in range ), the uselessness of Nighthawk after his first attack ( the billyclub breaks ). . .

[Metaphysician]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Groovy. I hope you'll let Witchcraft get funky with her VPP; it makes haer much more effective.

 

. . .not really. I mean, you can sometimes come up with effective tricks on 30 AP, but the problem is, *her levels aren't usable with it.*

[nexus]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

The problem is' date=' the Champions at least won't get the 15-25 attacks per turn, because pretty much every time she hits anyone with anything, they get Stunned. And thats not factoring in all the actions that can't be used as attacks ( due to not being in range ), the uselessness of Nighthawk after his first attack ( the billyclub breaks ). . .[/quote']

 

Don't have the stats handy. Why does the Billy club break?

[OddHat]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

. . .not really. I mean' date=' you can sometimes come up with effective tricks on 30 AP, but the problem is, *her levels aren't usable with it.*[/quote']

 

GM's permission makes a huge difference here. Considering how desperate the situation would be if the 350 point Champions were going to go up against Viperia, I might allow Witchcraft to pack some powers into those 30 active points that I would be very unlikely to permit in less desperate story-lines, probably justified by some in-game research into the nature of Viperia.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

I'll be using the same rule I did with Mechanon -- the exact writeups as presented in Champions, no errata.

 

I'm adding "as little interpretation / external logic as possible" because of the snafu's related to that bu... issue with relation with Mechanon's class of mind. If it's not explicitly listed on the writeup, it doesn't exist and does not matter, no matter how logical or well argued.

 

Of course this leads to issues of its own. Should Viperia get a bonus to her Deduction roll against Witchcraft (see below) because Witchcraft's description says she chants with her spells out of habit? I personally say a straight roll is the fairest option and that's what I'll use unless convinced otherwise.

 

However I will be treating the "Tactics" section of everyone's writeups as advice not commandments. I also promise to keep myself to no more than a single NightDuck joke

 

As to Witchcraft's 30pt VPP -- to avoid any appearance of impropriety here, I think it would be best if someone else defined this. Keep in mind the following issues.

 

• Witchcraft's combat levels do not apply to the VPP, period. "With Greater Witcheries Multipower" is pretty explicit.
  
• Without those levels, she's got an OCV of 7 and an OECV of 8 -- against an opponent with an DCV of 9, DECV of 7, and 3 levels that can be applied to ECV. Witchcraft should therefore lean toward an ECV power, or One-hex accurate.
  
• Viperia will be played as an INT 23 opponent with combat experience and no psychological limitations (such as Overconfidence) affecting her combat decisions, but lacking the Tactics skill. I will be interpreting the line about "not taking opponents seriously" leavened with the "tries to hit as many opponents at once" line.
  
• On that note, Viperia is an INT 23 opponent with serious vulnerabilities to Magic -- facing a group of opponents including someone dressed as a mage. If Viperia makes her Deduction roll, you'd better believe Witchcraft is getting punched on Segment 12 (the beginning)
  

 

Knowledge issues. At the beginning of the fight, each character will get a roll against appropriate KS skill to know about the other side. This will limit Viperia somewhat, as she lacks KS: Superhumans. However she will get a Deduction roll to figure out certain 'obvious' things ("That one is made of metal, he must be a brick. That one is wearing robes and chanting, she must be a mage.") Insert 'skills should matter' comment here.

 

Arrangement. I'll be using the "Rosie's" map from the resource kit again, with the Champions starting out encircling her at a distance to be determined when I get a better look at the map . Anyone with Flight (including Viperia) will start 5" up. The fight will begin "raw", with no chance of surprise and no held actions on either side.

 

Tale of the Tape. On the one hand, the Champions have a shot at her -- perhaps more than against Mechanon. She has "only" a 32 DEF, 24 MD, and 20 PowD -- no MegaBoss effect (Damage Reduction). On the other hand she has a 45 CON, so CON-stunning her even with teamwork rolls is going to be difficult. On the other paw, she has a number of AE attacks and high movement giving her multiple-opponent options Mechanon lacked. This is especially true of the 36" of Running (or 30" of Flight) with combat accelleration -- given that and her stated tactic of going after as many foes at once as possible, I'd be expecting a Move By/Thru on the first phase...

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Which is why I'll run it this weekend unless someone else wants to' date=' just like I did with Mechanon :-)[/quote']Hey, the more, the better - just as with Champions vs. Mechanon!

 

I'd do it, but we're going on vacation.... maybe next time SCUBA Heroine is out on a business trip and I have an afternoon alone.... really enjoyed doing the Mechanon fight.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

I also promise to keep myself to no more than a single NightDuck joke

Right! Just make sure the one joke doesn't last through the entire write-up, eh?

 

OTOH, you might make good use of the icon to describe the result when he gets hit...

[MitchellS]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

The problem is' date=' the Champions at least won't get the 15-25 attacks per turn, because pretty much every time she hits anyone with anything, they get Stunned. And thats not factoring in all the actions that can't be used as attacks ( due to not being in range ), the uselessness of Nighthawk after his first attack ( the billyclub breaks ). . .[/quote']

You always seem to encounter the same problems when lower-powered characters fight higher powered ones. There are these things called "combat maneuvers" which can buy you a few phases. It's not like the Champions just let Viperia punch them every phase. One Champion does 2-3 blocks, 2-3 dive for covers, a couple of attacks, some grabs, a throw or two. These things can cause Viperia to lose a whole turn. It's not perfect but it's not completely one-sided. Using one or more characters as the "dodging target" easily buys the rest of the time the 15-25 attacks per turn.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

/humor on

The flip side of which is that they can basically do damage or stay alive, Mitch

/humor off

[MitchellS]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

/humor on

The flip side of which is that they can basically do damage or stay alive, Mitch

/humor off

Absolutely. Sometimes the best you can hope for is to survive an encounter. Pretty common comic book stable really.

 

It's certainly not perfect but if the person Viperia is attacking each phase dives, blocks, dodges, roll, or whatever fits their character type, then that still leaves 4 other people to attack. I expect Viperia to win but it shouldn't be a 5 phase encounter as Metaphysician seems to imply.

 

It could just simply be that the "more powerful" hunted disadvantage was a typo. They do happen.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

It's certainly not perfect but if the person Viperia is attacking each phase dives, blocks, dodges, roll, or whatever fits their character type, then that still leaves 4 other people to attack. I expect Viperia to win but it shouldn't be a 5 phase encounter as Metaphysician seems to imply.

 

One point: Viperia has a goodly number of multiple-target attacks at her disposal and the inclination to use them, combined with a higher DEX, higher SPD, and considerable CV/skills. Maybe one of them can dodge her every phase, but what about two, three, or more?

 

From where I type, it's going to come down to EITHER whether or not they can keep dodging/diving/blocking long enough for her END troubles to kick in -- or whether or not Witchcraft can manage to hose her before Witchcraft gets smeared.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Don't have the stats handy. Why does the Billy club break?

 

That normally-useless 9d6 EB Damage Shield. Since the billy club is built on only 10 AP, unless its defined as an unbreakable focus, 9 Body done is more than enough to shatter it.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

GM's permission makes a huge difference here. Considering how desperate the situation would be if the 350 point Champions were going to go up against Viperia' date=' I might allow Witchcraft to pack some powers into those 30 active points that I would be very unlikely to permit in less desperate story-lines, probably justified by some in-game research into the nature of Viperia.[/quote']

 

Even so, it'd have to be something like "Naked Advantage to Multipower Power" for it to matter much. That OCV of 7 really hurts here.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

You always seem to encounter the same problems when lower-powered characters fight higher powered ones. There are these things called "combat maneuvers" which can buy you a few phases. It's not like the Champions just let Viperia punch them every phase. One Champion does 2-3 blocks' date=' 2-3 dive for covers, a couple of attacks, some grabs, a throw or two. These things can cause Viperia to lose a whole turn. It's not perfect but it's not completely one-sided. Using one or more characters as the "dodging target" easily buys the rest of the time the 15-25 attacks per turn.[/quote']

 

The problem is, every time you dive for cover or dodge or block, you are also not attacking. And the longer you do that, the more likely Viperia is going to haul out one of her several area attacks.

 

Besides, Viperia doesn't tire *that* quickly. Assuming she averages about 7 END use per phase, she won't run out until near the end of the third full turn.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

The best move may be for the Champions to run away if they find themselves overpowered and return later with a plan to give them the advantage -- for example, keeping the ranged combatants spread out so Viperia can't effectively use her area effect attacks, or perhaps with the help of one or more NPC heroes or a squad of UNTIL or PRIMUS agents. This is often what happens in the comics; the heroes get their asses handed to them in the first encounter only to defeat the villain later when they are more prepared.

[OddHat]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Even so' date=' it'd have to be something like "Naked Advantage to Multipower Power" for it to matter much. That OCV of 7 really hurts here.[/quote']

 

I agree that the OCV of 7 is a major problem. In addition to the Naked Advantages, should this happen as part of a campaign and should Witchcraft have time to do some serious research, I might also alow Witchcraft to directly add her VPP points to a MP slot, with the resulting spell having a -0 limit of "Only Against Viperia in this time and place"; the classic do research and come up with a device to defeat the monster trick. 30 active point Succor and Aid effects for her team mates could help as well. Darkness versus Sight and Hearing Groups might cost Viperia a few actions as she moves out of it, or help cover a retreat; Viperia's targetting Hearing and N-Ray Vision would not help her with it. None of these are one-shot fixes, but all would help even the odds.

[MitchellS]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

The problem is, every time you dive for cover or dodge or block, you are also not attacking. And the longer you do that, the more likely Viperia is going to haul out one of her several area attacks.

 

Besides, Viperia doesn't tire *that* quickly. Assuming she averages about 7 END use per phase, she won't run out until near the end of the third full turn.

One person can dive for cover every phase. That leaves 4 others to attack. Also Ironclad can suck up a couple of attacks before going out. It's not a win for the Champions but it's not a one turn loss.

 

With half the team flying the shockwave is useless. The breath attack can be avoided with a dive for cover as it's a no range cone. The flash nnd attack is the only really troublesome ae attack she has. And at 7 End per attack Viperia can only fight about 2 turns.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

One person can dive for cover every phase. That leaves 4 others to attack. Also Ironclad can suck up a couple of attacks before going out. It's not a win for the Champions but it's not a one turn loss.

-If she uses an area attack, more than one person will have to dive for cover

 

-Not all the characters will be able to attack every turn. In particular, after the first attack landed, Nighthawk might as well not even bother. . . and given Viperia's flight, Ironclad may or may not be in range.

 

OTOH, your right, they can prolong it. I just don't see them prolonging it enough to force a draw, sans reinforcements arriving.

 

With half the team flying the shockwave is useless. The breath attack can be avoided with a dive for cover as it's a no range cone. The flash nnd attack is the only really troublesome ae attack she has. And at 7 End per attack Viperia can only fight about 2 turns.

 

-The breath attack isn't that easy to avoid. Remember that the penalties are something like -1 for every inch or so, so unless they are near the edge, anyone caught in it is going to take a pretty hefty penalty.

 

-Its closer to three full turns; remember, her very first action on the openning phase 12 is followed immediately by a Recovery

 

-If all she's doing is the thunderclap, than the Champions probably aren't going to make it through two turns. Sure, its only about 14 Stun per hit, but its not like they have an overabundance of Stun.

[MitchellS]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

-If she uses an area attack, more than one person will have to dive for cover

 

-Not all the characters will be able to attack every turn. In particular, after the first attack landed, Nighthawk might as well not even bother. . . and given Viperia's flight, Ironclad may or may not be in range.

 

OTOH, your right, they can prolong it. I just don't see them prolonging it enough to force a draw, sans reinforcements arriving.

 

-The breath attack isn't that easy to avoid. Remember that the penalties are something like -1 for every inch or so, so unless they are near the edge, anyone caught in it is going to take a pretty hefty penalty.

 

-Its closer to three full turns; remember, her very first action on the openning phase 12 is followed immediately by a Recovery

 

-If all she's doing is the thunderclap, than the Champions probably aren't going to make it through two turns. Sure, its only about 14 Stun per hit, but its not like they have an overabundance of Stun.

I really believe the difference between you and I is that I accept that comic books and games are different in one fundamental way: In comic books heroes are assigned opponents based on their power levels. In the game heroes become more powerful over time and so fight more powerful opponents as the game progresses. Spider-man fights Doc Octopus, Electro, and Venom; character who would be a 2 panel battle for Thor.

 

It is very clear that there are villains in the CU who are substantially tougher than 350 point starting characters and should not be fought by them unless the encounter is designed as a short-term delaying tactic. The fact that Hero Games has decided to have a lot of villains hunted by the Champions is really nothing more than a continuity error on the part of the company. It is easier and quicker to just plop "The Champions" on the line than it is to decide whether it should be one of the other dozen hero teams. The fact that the Champions hunted doesn't list as Less Powerful is just a speed typo.

 

The Champions can't beat Viperia [baring game mechanics like Viperia rolling poorly every time and the Champions rolling very well]. The fact that they are hunting Viperia is just a continuity error. The fact that they are listed as More Power is just a speed error. I'm willing to accept that and make the proper adjustments myself. I hope that in the future Hero Games will actually think through some of these things before hand, because it does bring a sense of more life within the CU, which I feel is needed. But when your line developer writes 5 books a year and edits 13 more there are going to be mistakes because there is not enough time to think things through completely. We should just accept them as mistakes and make the adjustments ourselves rather than trying to debate how the Champions can or cannot win, because they can't.