Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

[TheEmerged]

Tale of the Tape

 

Executive Summary

The Champions almost pulled it off thanks to a couple of lucky breaks and a noteworthy flaw on Viperia's writeup -- but their luck fails them on the 'follow thru' and they're unable to close it out. In the end, Viperia really only needed a single attack power.

 

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Map: “Rosie’s†from the GM Screen. Viperia is in the centermost hex, each of the Champions surrounding her 8†away in a hex pattern, their positions randomly chosen. Defender, Sapphire, and Witchcraft begin the fight with 5†of altitude; Nighthawk and Ironclad begin at ground level. Whether Viperia begins at ground level or not will be determined after the relevant rolls.

 

Segment 11 (pre-combat)

Viperia makes deduction rolls (14-) to recognize that these are the Champions, that Witchcraft is a magic-user, that Ironclad is a brick, that Sapphire is an energy-projector, and that Defender is a ‘battlesuit’. However she fails the roll against Nighthawk and therefore is not sure of his capabilities. Viperia lacks any KS’s appropriate to knowing anything beyond this of the Champions.

 

Defender fails his KS: Superhuman World roll (r/13 vs 11-), and therefore has no idea who he’s up against. He lacks any other relevant skills.

 

Ironclad also fails (r/13 vs 8-) his Superhuman World roll. However he manages to make his Tactics roll (r/5 vs 8-).

 

Nighthawk makes the Superhuman World roll (r/5 vs 11-), and hence knows he’s fighting a ‘flying brick’ named Viperia with impressive defenses. He’s aware of her magic vulnerability.

 

Sapphire has no relevant skills.

 

Witchcraft has only one semi-relevant skill – KS: Witchcraft. She fails (r/16 vs 13-). As such she is using her Spell of Vitality (+40 END, +5 REC).

 

Note that Nighthawk can’t inform his teammates until his action.

 

Segment 12

The arrangement of the Champions preclude a good Move By or Move Thru except versus the ground-pounding targets. The Thunderclap’s low damage will be countered by the upcoming Post-12 recovery. Therfore Viperia opts to start on the ground, put all levels on DCV, and unleash the Shockwave. This will do 8d6 vs Nighthawk, Ironclad, and one of the two cars -- the other car will take 7d6. Result is 28s 9 B 18k (7B 14k against the far car). Ironclad decides to try and tough it out, taking 3s and 4k (negligible KBD), and is prone. Nightduck tries to Dive for Cover 4†away (to reduce the damage, since he can’t swing far enough to avoid completely). However he fails miserably (r17 vs 10-), taking 10s and 11k – and then immediately hitting a wall for 11d6. This does 30s, an additional 12s. This leaves Nighthawk with 13s, but the two totals are not added for the purpose of CON-stunning. Nighthawk is prone, because he failed his Breakfall roll (r15 vs 14-).

 

Nighthawk attempted dive for cover and hence has no action. He was not CON-stunned and therefore shouts “She’s vulnerable to magic!â€

 

Defender replies “But there’s no such thing as magic…†He flies up to 4†away from Viperia, makes his teamwork roll (r8), puts his H-H level on DCV, puts his multipower levels of OCV, and then waits.

 

Sapphire flies up to 4†away from Viperia, makes her teamwork roll (r13), and then waits.

 

Witchcraft moves away from Viperia, makes her teamwork roll (r13), and waits. She puts one skill level each on OECV and PDCV.

 

Ironclad stands up (insert crack about his lack of Breakfall skill here), and attempts Find Weakness. He rolls a 10, just succeeding (12 minus 2 for range).

 

The three active Champions all unleash attacks. Defender (r11 vs 9-) and Sapphire (r9 vs 7-) miss. Witchcraft however hits (r8 vs 13-) with her Ego Attack, resulting in 20s. This is increased to 30s because of Viperia’s vulnerability – of which 6s actually gets through Viperia’s defenses.

 

Post-12 Recoveries

End result – Nighthawk is down 14s and currently prone.

 

Segment 1

Nobody acts

 

Segment 2

Viperia goes +1/+2 (10 OCV 11 DCV), half-moves into Witchcraft’s hex, and goes for a punch. Witchcraft goes for DFC (2 hexes) and succeeds (r9 vs 11-)

 

Nighthawk makes his Breakfall roll and can stand up as a 0 phase. He goes +1 DCV, half moves to get closer, and misses a “might as well try†Flash (r11 vs 7-)

 

Segment 3

Viperia goes +0/+3, then lets loose with the Thunderclap. She gets a 17s 10f result. Nighthawk succeeds at a DFC (r7 vs 10-), as does Sapphire (r11 vs 11-). Nighthawk also succeeds at a Breakfall roll (at -3) to avoid going prone. Witchcraft however has no realistic chance (she could try as she hasn’t acted yet this segment but it would involve diving about 7 hexes).

 

Defender flies in as close as he can (5†away from Viperia) and attempts an Entangle attack – which misses (r11 vs 7-)

 

Witchcraft does not get an action due to the DFC in seg2.

 

Ironclad moves to Car 1 (easily making the jumping roll) and picks it up.

 

Segment 4

Nighthawk (who is not prone) does not get an action due to DFC in seg3.

 

Sapphire (who is prone) does not get an action due to DFC in seg3

 

Segment 5

Viperia half moves to a position where all 5 are within the TC radius, and goes TC. This time she gets a 19s 12f result. Nighthawk again manage to DFC (r7 vs 9-) & not go prone (r10 v 11-). Sapphire also succeeds at DFC again despite taking a -2 penalty for already being prone (r9 vs 9-). Ironclad and Defender decide to stand tough. Witchcraft makes a desperation attempt to DRC (6 hexes this time) and fails; per the rules she stays in her current hex. This is enough to take her to -6 STUN (and therefore 0 END), and she is now prone.

 

Defender attempts the entangle again, and again misses (r11 vs 9-). He has 11 segments of hearing flash remaining.

 

Witchcraft gets does not get a recovery, as this is the segment she was injured on (FREd pg 274).

 

Ironclad half-moves toward Viperia, still carrying the car (easily making his jumping roll). He is now 4†away from her, and opts to try Find Weakness again – succeeding (r4 vs 10-). Viperia is now at ¼ DEF from his attacks.

 

Segment 6

Viperia decides to follow the Shampoo Directive (Rinse, Repeat), still at 12 DCV. She finds a spot where all the Champions are in range of TC and lets loose. Defender manages to make a desperation DFC (r4 vs 7-), a hit would have left him at 2 STUN). Witchcraft is simply hosed – this damage takes her below -10 Stun. Nighthawk DFC’s again – spending his Phase in Segment 8, and succeeds easily (r9 vs 11-, r8 vs 11-) keeping his feet. Sapphire also burns her Segment 8 with a DFC – but misses. Ironclad takes it on the chin again

 

Nighthawk and Sapphire do not have actions this segment because of DFC in seg5. Nighthawk has 10 segments of flash left, Sapphire 7. Witchcraft & Defender have 10 segments of flash left, while Ironclad has 7.

 

Segment 7

And on the 7th segment, the GM rested

 

Segment 8

Viperia is getting pissed, and as such does the unthinkable – Rapid Fire’s the TC. This will leave her at 6 DCV (9, +3 skills, /2) but hitting her own hex 3 times is accomplishable if difficult -4 to all three rolls (r11, r12, and r9 vs 13-). This will affect Ironclad, Sapphire, and Witchcraft (Defender and Nighthawk are out of range by virtue of position from seg6). Sapphire makes a desperation DFC vs 5- (14- minus 7 for the range and 2 for being already prone) and fails with an r8. Ironclad decides he has to take his chances, while Witchcraft is simple hosed. Final damage result is a mere 31s 11f however (42s would have been average). That’s enough to move Sapphire and Witchcraft beyond any hope of returning this fight… but Ironclad still has a single point of Stun left.

 

Neither Nighthawk nor Defender get an action this phase because of the DFC in seg6. Both have 8 segments of flash left.

 

Sapphire does not get a recovery.

 

Ironclad thinks for a moment and drops the car (0 Phase) – he knew it had already been damaged but was going to use it for the area-effect. He easily makes the to-hit for Viperia’s hex, pushes his Strength to 70, and divides his skill levels as +1/+3 (in case he misses). He needs a 12-, and rolls an 11-. The damage result is 56s, 16b, and 13k – of which 48s, 8b, and 3k get through her defenses. This is enough to CON-stun her!

 

Segment 9

Ironclad and Viperia hit the ground (they were 5†in the air) – only 5d6 damage, not enough to penetrate their defenses.

 

Viperia recovers from being Con-Stunned (she does not get any END or STUN back, however). She places all three levels on DCV.

 

Segment 10

The three standing Champions make a hard decision – they aren’t going to coordinate this turn. If they did, Viperia could simply DFC once. What’s more, they decide that there best chance is to try and make Ironclad’s next punch count.

 

Nighthawk opts to let Defender go first – Defender goes for the bolo attack. Putting both ranged levels on OCV (and the H-H level on DCV), he attempts the bolo attack again – and misses (r15 v 9-).

 

Nighthawk swings in and goes for a Martial Throw, putting his lone level on OCV – and misses (r13- vs 8-). Note that even if Viperia weren’t allowed to assign her combat levels, both of these attacks still would have missed…

 

Ironclad grabs the car again (1/2 phase action in GM’s opinion), goes all DCV – and gets interrupted by a Viperia that doesn’t want to take her chances. She successfully DFC’s out of the car’s reach; Ironclad’s failed blow destroys the car.

 

Segment 11

Nothing happens – Viperia spent this phase for a DFC in Segment 10.

 

Segment 12

Too late, the Champions realize they all three are quite close to her and she’ll get to act before they do. Viperia rapid-fire’s the Thunderclap again (burning 18 END, leaving her with 11 END left) – this time for results of 16s, 17s, and 13s, more than enough to put all three below -10 Stun. Nighthawk attempts a desperation 9 hex DFC and fails (r13 vs 5-). Defender comes closer but still fails to make a 6 hex DFC (r9 vs 8-). Ironclad similarly makes the valiant attempt at a 7 hex DFC and comes up ouchie (r13 vs 6-).

 

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BOTTOM LINES

 

1> Viperia's lack of "Lack of Weakness" is noticeable given her otherwise thorough defenses. Her DEF score also isn't really at "boss" levels relative to the 12-15 DC attack powers common to printed 350-pt Champions Universe characters.

 

2> NightDuck was basically useless, doing little more than putting on a show with the constant DFC's he needed to stay in the fight -- and blowing his one chance to actually hit her.

 

3> Said it before, will continue to say it -- Defender either needs an AE:1h entangle or a "both damaged" entangle.

 

4> In hindsight, Witchcraft's best use of her VPP would have been FD: hearing usable by others to represent hard ear coverings. This would have meant the NND part of Viperia's "Thunderclap" slot would have been useless and based on what I saw without this slot she would probably have lost.

 

5> The prospect of a Move By/Thru was checked by intelligent positioning of the Champions. Perhaps Viperia should invest in some Flight Levels or No Turn Mode flight...

 

6> Again, just like in the Mechanon fight, the Champion's lack of Ranged levels meant they had to get within AE range to hit her effectively.

 

7> As expected, this fight showed both the strength and weakness of Dive For Cover. They could mostly nullify Viperia's attacks unless they got too close, but it meant they couldn't press the attack either.

 

8> Rapid-Firing the Thunderclap is a little cheesy, but perfectly legal. If I were Viperia my next 5 points would be spent on the Rapid Attack skill

[CBikle]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Some thoughts on the combat.

 

Since Viperia has the Champs as a hunted, that implies that they've met and they probably have at least a general idea of what she can take and dish out and they wouldn't be as restrained (even with most of them having CVKs.)

 

-Ironclad's action on seg. 3 seems wasted. Why didn't he just throw the car or better yet, did a half-move leap and take a swing at her (levels in OCV) ?

 

-Nobody tried to coordinate attacks (which should be a little easier because they all have the Teamwork skill at least on 13-) which would have increased their OCVs and chances to stun Viperia.

 

- Viperia's 2d6 Unluck didn't come into play, but whether it should is pretty much a GM call and since the Champions are considered "More Powerful", I can understand it not coming into play.

 

-Both Defender and NightHawk have killing attacks and might consider relying on those and hope to hit the stun lottery.

 

Defender's RKA will cost a lot of end which his reserve can recover while he's unconscious. Nighthawk's martial arts HKA will unfortunately subject him to Viperia's damage-shield, but it'll only do (on average) 16 pts. of stun a pop and will probably not do KB.

 

- Viperia has no FF, so Sapphire's Stun-bolt (6d6 NND) should go right through for 21 stun a pop and Viperia won't be able to absorb this because there's no body damage. The big problem is hitting, which is why coordinated

attacks are so important for the OCV bonus.

 

- Witchcraft has two GM-permission slots in her VPP (the vitality and beast form spells), so it implies a little leeway in that area. Of the spells provided as examples, her silver-dagger deal could be the most unpleasant, doing 21/2d6 HKA that potentially could take advantage of Viperia's vulnerability.

[CBikle]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

As a follow-up, Viperia's breath attack would be particularly devastating as it would stun and scatter (average KB being 23" for fliers and 17" for the rest) most of the Champions. Were she just to rely on this and keep her levels in DCV, she'd wreck shop.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

-Ironclad's action on seg. 3 seems wasted. Why didn't he just throw the car or better yet' date=' did a half-move leap and take a swing at her (levels in OCV) ?[/quote']

 

Because he had to move to the car (1/2 phase) and grab it (1/2 phase). During the later segment he has to grab it (1/2 phase) before he can attack with it (1/2 phase)

 

 

Nobody tried to coordinate attacks (which should be a little easier because they all have the Teamwork skill at least on 13-) which would have increased their OCVs and chances to stun Viperia.

 

Okay, did I do that backwards again? I penalized her DCV to reflect the coordinate issue.

 

Viperia's 2d6 Unluck didn't come into play, but whether it should is pretty much a GM call and since the Champions are considered "More Powerful", I can understand it not coming into play.

 

Which is precisely why this GM didn't use it -- too much of a judgement call.

 

Both Defender and NightHawk have killing attacks and might consider relying on those and hope to hit the stun lottery.

 

Each of which only matter when they can hit her. You will note they failed.

 

Viperia has no FF, so Sapphire's Stun-bolt (6d6 NND) should go right through for 21 stun a pop and Viperia won't be able to absorb this because there's no body damage. The big problem is hitting, which is why coordinated

attacks are so important for the OCV bonus.

 

You answered your own question there. I do note that her miss in Segment 2 got left off the play-by-play though... she was r9 vs 7- (she rolled a 9 when she needed a 7-).

 

Witchcraft has two GM-permission slots in her VPP (the vitality and beast form spells), so it implies a little leeway in that area. Of the spells provided as examples, her silver-dagger deal could be the most unpleasant, doing 21/2d6 HKA that potentially could take advantage of Viperia's vulnerability.

 

I left stating out her VPP to another thread.

[CBikle]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Actually , in your example , you did have them coordinate. I missed it at first, my bad.

 

I think Ironclad can move to an object, pick it up and throw it in the same phase.

 

Not sure if it mattered in the example, but I'm not positive that Viperia can allocate levels on the same phase that she's recovering from being stunned.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

I'd favor using the Hurricane Breath, myself. Almost as much damage, more KB by far.

 

Other than that, not bad.

 

P.S.: IIRC, damage doesn't have to inflict Body to be absorbed. You just count Body.

[caris]

Re: Tale of the Tape

 

Emerged - Why did you not roll Viperia's Reputation Disadvantage?

[Agent X]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Fair enough.

 

What I want to see, though, is an Experienced Champions writeup at some point. Not just higher point values for the members ( ~500 ), but some development in the characters. What have they done since they founded the team?? Who have they fought?? Have they been hunted by the law?? How have each of the individual members changed over time??

The problem with that is that many of us are using Millennium City and we're already making decisions about what is going on with the Champions. In my campaign, most of the Champions are trapped in an alternate dimension due to the plotting of Talisman and a mysterious old sorceror. Defender was just killed (in a twist of fate) by Viper X in a huge battle between the player characters and the new Champions made up of most of the MC-8 against a half-dozen Viper Villains and the Ultimates. I'm not interested in DOJ telling me what their experienced Champions look like. I'm more interested in seeing current writeups of the Justice Squadron, California Patrol, and the Sentinels.

[Agent X]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

I didn't like the choice of using rapid fire by Viperia. I doubt I would go there as a GM running my villains. If I did, every one of my Players would soon be rapid firing their area affect attacks and what fun would that be?

[CBikle]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

The problem with that is that many of us are using Millennium City and we're already making decisions about what is going on with the Champions. In my campaign' date=' most of the Champions are trapped in an alternate dimension due to the plotting of Talisman and a mysterious old sorceror. Defender was just killed (in a twist of fate) by Viper X in a huge battle between the player characters and the new Champions made up of most of the MC-8 against a half-dozen Viper Villains and the Ultimates. I'm not interested in DOJ telling me what their experienced Champions look like. I'm more interested in seeing current writeups of the Justice Squadron, California Patrol, and the Sentinels.[/quote']

 

I wouldn't mind loosely-defined updates. Maybe just optional developments in characters background and stats. Not whole character sheets, just how they've spent XP. Maybe even multiple options for silver-age/iron-age/etc.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Tale of the Tape

 

Emerged - Why did you not roll Viperia's Reputation Disadvantage?

 

Would you accept "because I forgot about it?" Because that's the real reason

 

The No-Prize reason would be that it doesn't supply any useful information to the Champions other than that she's a VIPER Supervillain -- something the Green & Gold snake-motiffed costume could have told them...

 

RE: Rapid Fire. There were no PC's or NPC's here -- no metagame whatsoever. Rapid Firing an AE NND is cheesy and I'll admit it; it's also perfectly valid if you're allowing Rapid Fire (which is an optional rule). She has the capability and as such it was used.

[caris]

Re: Tale of the Tape

 

I'll take the real reason, thank you.

[JohnOSpencer]

Re: Tale of the Tape

 

RE: Rapid Fire. There were no PC's or NPC's here -- no metagame whatsoever. Rapid Firing an AE NND is cheesy and I'll admit it; it's also perfectly valid if you're allowing Rapid Fire (which is an optional rule). She has the capability and as such it was used.

 

Well for one, the champions should have been rapid firing everyone of their ranged attacks every time then. Two, Ironclad could indeed grab and throw the car immediatly (FRED pg 256).

 

I also agree that since Viperia is hunted by the Champions they should darn well know who she is without a roll.

Other than that, the Champions could show up with Kinetik, Dr Silverback, heck they could show up with a PRIMUS assault team(which may be more effective than they appeared in this one). They do have NCI.

 

John

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Tale of the Tape

 

Well for one, the champions should have been rapid firing everyone of their ranged attacks every time then. Two, Ironclad could indeed grab and throw the car immediatly (FRED pg 256).

 

I also agree that since Viperia is hunted by the Champions they should darn well know who she is without a roll.

Other than that, the Champions could show up with Kinetik, Dr Silverback, heck they could show up with a PRIMUS assault team(which may be more effective than they appeared in this one). They do have NCI.

 

John

 

Dude, they couldn't hit her anyway. If they rapid-fire, they'll just burn through their End that much faster.

 

Even if they know who she is, so what? "Oh crap. It's Viperia. Run! Run!"

[Metaphysician]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Yeah, the reason Viperia could do it is because she's "attacking" her own hex, at DCV 3. The Champions own hit rolls were bad enough as is, they couldn't afford to eat the extra OCV penalty.

[JohnOSpencer]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

If you roll more times, the more likely you are to defy the odds. If each of them roll twice, they are much more likely to roll well and hit. And what does end matter when you're gonna be unconsious in a phase or two any ways?

 

John

[Cardinal]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

If you roll more times, the more likely you are to defy the odds. If each of them roll twice, they are much more likely to roll well and hit. And what does end matter when you're gonna be unconsious in a phase or two any ways?

 

John

There are two problems with this approach. First, unless the champions have rapid fire skill, they would not be able to move while using rapid fire. This means that they could not get up from their many DFCs, knock downs, etc. or move to get into range.

 

Second, per 5E p. 262, if a character misses with their first shot all the remaining shots in the sequence fails. Therefore, it is not simply a matter of shooting multiple times and hoping one hits. If you miss the first time (at a -2 or more modifier) the remainder of the shots are wasted (as is the End).

[JohnOSpencer]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Yeah fair enough. I forgot that point. Of course, with that being the case I definatly wouldn't allow Rapid Fire with AOE attacks, seems way too abusive.

 

John

[TheEmerged]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Can I play Devil's Advocate for a moment John? AE attacks are going to do half the damage of non-AE attacks. Is it really so out-of kilter?

 

I'd argue it is the NND + Rapid Fire aspect that makes it a problem more than the AE + Rapid Fire aspect. The second one just means you can partially circumvent the to-hit penalties.

[Crimson Arrow]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Defender was just killed (in a twist of fate) by Viper X in a huge battle between the player characters and the new Champions made up of most of the MC-8 against a half-dozen Viper Villains and the Ultimates.

 

Sounds really interesting. Mind telling us who was on each side and how Defender got killed?

 

 

I'm not interested in DOJ telling me what their experienced Champions look like. I'm more interested in seeing current writeups of the Justice Squadron, California Patrol, and the Sentinels.

 

While I wouldn't say that I am not at all interested, I'd rather see what some of the other teams look like too.

 

By the way, the original question was whether or not the Champions are More Powerful than Viperia. Even leaving outside the Rapid Firing of AE NND attacks, could anyone say that they are More Powerful? Sounds to me that they are probably As Powerful, even when taking into accont other resources, friends and allies, etc. Those sorts of things are useful, but not enough to make them More Powerful, in my view.

[JohnOSpencer]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Can I play Devil's Advocate for a moment John? AE attacks are going to do half the damage of non-AE attacks. Is it really so out-of kilter?

 

I'd argue it is the NND + Rapid Fire aspect that makes it a problem more than the AE + Rapid Fire aspect. The second one just means you can partially circumvent the to-hit penalties.

 

Different problems, one is to-hit(which circumvents the to hit penalty) and the other is damage which matters(more or less) no matter what. Heck big bad villians don't like it when one of my players rapid fires his 15d6 EB. I just think that rapid firing an AOE attack is a bit too effective. Just my opinion.

 

John

[caris]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Can I play Devil's Advocate for a moment John? AE attacks are going to do half the damage of non-AE attacks. Is it really so out-of kilter?

 

I'd argue it is the NND + Rapid Fire aspect that makes it a problem more than the AE + Rapid Fire aspect. The second one just means you can partially circumvent the to-hit penalties.

 

I don't know Emerged. If you were to try to build her power with Autofire instead of using Rapid Fire, either the NND or the AE aspect would have caused the +1 modifer to Autofire.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

I wanted to thank TheEmerged for running the combat. It's always neat to see one's creations put through their paces.

[Cardinal]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

Different problems, one is to-hit(which circumvents the to hit penalty) and the other is damage which matters(more or less) no matter what. Heck big bad villians don't like it when one of my players rapid fires his 15d6 EB. I just think that rapid firing an AOE attack is a bit too effective. Just my opinion.

 

John

 

I completely agree with this statement. The utter nastiness of the rapid fire AOE attack is that one can fire a large number of shots with only slightly decreased chance of hitting your target (for example, 3 shots and only end up trying to hit a DCV of 7).

 

This of course brings up a second question which I leave to the GMs out there. The rapid fire power provides that if you miss one attack the subsequent attacks also miss. Given that when one normally misses with an AOE you try to figure out scatter (i.e. the attack lands somewhere, just not where you aimed it). As such, you normally would hit one of the immediately surrounding hexes, likely still nuking some if not all of your original targets.

 

This creates an incentive to burn as much END as possible rapid firing at the target hex because even if you miss, you hit. Can you say Queso!

 

This is much worse than just the NND aspect because you still need to hit your target for the damage to have an effect. There is a functional limit on the number of rapid fire shots you can take before you will miss. That limit is greatly reduced with AOE.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Viperia: Less Pow Than Champions??

 

/devil's advocate still on

 

But without the NND, less damage gets through

 

/devil's advocate off

 

You're welcome, Scott.