Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

My answer on this topic, though, is to define the sfx of your strength. If you define it as "tactile telekinesis", or as "5th dimensional strength" or even "Silver Age genre convention", then the sfx is different than mere "superstrength". No point difference, no big deal.

 

GMs, ask yourself this. If you're charging this character 10+ points for the ability to lift buildings without them crumbling, is that ability more useful than +10 PD? Because, hell, I know where I'm spending those points.

[OddHat]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

Wondering what most powers with the RWP limitation would be like.

 

Many powers wouldn't exist at all. However, you could do some cool stuff with cybernetics and equipment, surgical modifications, and massive doses of the right drugs. Might make a fun cyberpunk campaign with capes.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

I think some people are taking the Real World Physics aspect a little further than I was hoping for.

 

I think the physics of the Marvel Universe are pretty close to that of the base Hero/Champions rules since it has been pointed out that many characters can be matched up from both. With that said it has been stated in many places in the comics that Hulk if angry enough has unmatched STR in that Universe. This was illustrated in the original Secret Wars comic when a mountain was dropped on a group of characters and Hulk held up the weight of that mountain above the heads of Mr. Fantastic, Iron-Man, Captain Marvel and The Human Torch while they worked on an escape. The Hulk was NOT holding the entire Mountain off of the ground however. He was holding all of the weight in roughly a cone shape directly above them to make just enough room for that small group to talk and work. Gladiator's power if able to move an equivalent mass would keep the entire mountain off of the ground. This is no more a direct combat power IMO than Megascale movement or many talents but it should not be given to all bricks as a special effect of being a brick.

 

HM

[Kristopher]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

This is probably not going to be a popular statement, but there are some genre conventions I don't at all care to simulate. In my campaigns, attempting to pick up a building results in a demolished building and lots of leaking / sparking utliltity connections.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

This is probably not going to be a popular statement' date=' but there are some genre conventions I don't at all care to simulate. In my campaigns, attempting to pick up a building results in a demolished building and lots of leaking / sparking utliltity connections.[/quote']

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that with regards to a character with nothing more than a high STR.

 

However, do you enforce the same rule when a character with Telekinesis (Imagine a Green Lantern type) tries to pick up the same building with the same amount of Telekinetic STR? Since TK has a limitation that only allows it to affect the whole object it stands to reason that even if the limitation is NOT taken it still has that ability (to affect the whole object).

 

HM

[Kristopher]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that with regards to a character with nothing more than a high STR.

 

However, do you enforce the same rule when a character with Telekinesis (Imagine a Green Lantern type) tries to pick up the same building with the same amount of Telekinetic STR? Since TK has a limitation that only allows it to affect the whole object it stands to reason that even if the limitation is NOT taken it still has that ability (to affect the whole object).

 

I'd have to think about that one. I can see where you're coming from, but on the other hand buildings just aren't designed or built to be picked up.

[casualplayer]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

What is the point of using Real World Physics when you won't be able to because the character's strength means that the character intrinsically is not part of Real World Physics?

 

Are you going to force Superbrick to fly backwards from the impact of his mighty fists everytime he hits somebody?

 

Are you going to force Superbrick to do untold damage every time he springs up a mile in the air?

 

I don't get the point.

 

One of the first things you discover when learning to punch more efficiently is how much force is actually being directed toward yourself when you make contact. If you don't know how to punch well, to get that snap or punch through the target, you waste a heap of exertion. I have had characters fly backwards as a result of whaling on the immovable (haymaker, move-by, move-thru, etc) rather than have them become a smear. It wasn't to penalize them or make them look ridiculous; it was GM fiat to keep them in the game rather than have them knock themselves out (which really makes a player look ridiculous.)

 

I let people circumvent RWP the HERO way; I make them pay for it. Too many folks buy a power and, figuring it out to its 'natural' conclusion, feel they should get a lot of extras. Does a 60 STR let you lift 100 tons of paperback novels? Yu-Gi-Oh cards? Sand?

 

Many GMs would let someone with 60 STR TK lift this stuff but not someone with plain ol' STR. Why? Try to justify that point of view to two grouchy players, one with STR and one with ranged STR. I haven't seen a whole lot of published characters with 60 STR TK AE: Variable Selective (Invisible, Based on ECV, blah, blah) but that is what I would steer my player towards as they grow. Jean Grey had to spend 40 years XP somewhere, seeing as she started with 25 STR TK virtually single target.

 

Too many players want a free lunch, and a lot of gravy was written into 5th Ed. They see a Hero Sandwich, and they want to emulate that sandwich but all they can afford is the meat and the bread to start. You have to earn the condiments that bring out the flavor IMO.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

..snip...

I haven't seen a whole lot of published characters with 60 STR TK AE: Variable Selective (Invisible, Based on ECV, blah, blah)...snip...

The only time you need to buy AOE on TK is when you want to affect multiple seperate targets simultaneously. TK already has a measure of extra limbs built in for free that allows you to grab and hold target #1 on one phase and attack target #2 on your next phase without letting go of target #1 without letting go of #1 (there is no limit to the number of additional targets as long as you pay end seperately for each use of TK).

 

This seems perfectly fair considering that points spent on TK do NOT provide any figured characteristics the way STR does. Vehicles have STR but usually not TK (maybe a tractor beam for a starship!).

 

HM

[casualplayer]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

The only time you need to buy AOE on TK is when you want to affect multiple seperate targets simultaneously. TK already has a measure of extra limbs built in for free that allows you to grab and hold target #1 on one phase and attack target #2 on your next phase without letting go of target #1 without letting go of #1 (there is no limit to the number of additional targets as long as you pay end seperately for each use of TK).

 

This seems perfectly fair considering that points spent on TK do NOT provide any figured characteristics the way STR does. Vehicles have STR but usually not TK (maybe a tractor beam for a starship!).

 

HM

 

Feh! Free lunch. Why should you get it for free? What if you don't want it? I don't want Corinthian leather seats in my worktruck.

 

The only people that think this aspect of the TK description is fair are those that don't enforce END expenditure closely. Exert power to Grab with TK, spend END, maintain Grab, spend END, Grab different target, spend END, maintain both Grabs, spend END, too tired to maintain FF, get mugged by gradeschoolers.

 

Every GM with a new player with TK has seen this face. "I grab the guns from all three agents." "You can't but you can grab one each action." Face like a thwarted child, tears welling up, lips pinched like they were expecting honey and got castor oil. Somehow that explanation doesn't fly. You can listen to him whine or give him a treat. Every edition of HERO since 2nd has been progressively more full of treats.

[Agent X]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

What I so clumsily was getting at is that nobody on here seems to be advocating Real World Physics. Real World Physics pretty much makes superleap and superpunching have all sorts of drawbacks that no one seems to be advocating...

 

So, If you are moving away from default comics physics I think you need to spell out what YOUR Physics, NOT RWPhysics, is.

[casualplayer]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

Nah, you aren't being clumsy about it. And honestly, I am not advocating Real World Physics. In my games I even let characters fly unaided!

 

Good storytelling has to be consistent. We have all been cheated by a situation that worked one way once and a different way at another time. Without that underlying consistency, faith and belief are gone and you are playing Cops and Robbers like 6 year olds.

 

I use RWP as the baseline and powers as the exceptions to the rule. Exceptions that are clearly spelled out on the character sheets.

 

Logic comes up short when it comes to superpowers. If the Thing can pick a car up by the bumper then Captain America should be able to palm a motorcycle engine. If inertia and wind resistance doesn't apply to Quicksilver's running then he can't make a sonic boom. You can't logically argue for or against these situations because you have no premise. Unless it is spelled out in black and white and paid for in points on the character sheet.

[OddHat]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

What I so clumsily was getting at is that nobody on here seems to be advocating Real World Physics. Real World Physics pretty much makes superleap and superpunching have all sorts of drawbacks that no one seems to be advocating...

 

So, If you are moving away from default comics physics I think you need to spell out what YOUR Physics, NOT RWPhysics, is.

 

Many years ago, when I was in my Marshal Law phase, I ran a game where a Super-Strong punch (STR over 25) automatically counted as a move-by, and a Superleap automatically counted as a move-by and did massive environmental damage. I also had people being toasted by their own powers. It was strangely entertaining, in a one-shot way. Switched to a less stringent format in the next game, and got rusty Iron-Age out of my system by the end of that campaign. Still, having the building fall apart when you lift it is not all that bad, given the tone of the rest of the game; it's "Bronze Physics".

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

We had a character in George Moses's game that had a power like this in his Huge MP. He had 90STR Telekinesis, No Range, Sticky. That way he picked up every pipe, brick and copymachine in the Baxter Building with one action. No crumbling.

 

Even in the MU, Gladiators feat was said to be enhanced by his Confidence Power, in which he can do anything he *thinks* he can do. This power is admirably portrayed by George's build.

 

Hawksmoor

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

Too many players want a free lunch, and a lot of gravy was written into 5th Ed. They see a Hero Sandwich, and they want to emulate that sandwich but all they can afford is the meat and the bread to start. You have to earn the condiments that bring out the flavor IMO.

 

EARN? Dude, it's a freakin' game. I don't want to "earn" the ability to play the character I want. I just want to play him. I don't have 40 years to sit around and play Champions.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

We had a character in George Moses's game that had a power like this in his Huge MP. He had 90STR Telekinesis, No Range, Sticky. That way he picked up every pipe, brick and copymachine in the Baxter Building with one action. No crumbling.

 

Even in the MU, Gladiators feat was said to be enhanced by his Confidence Power, in which he can do anything he *thinks* he can do. This power is admirably portrayed by George's build.

 

Hawksmoor

 

WTF???

 

Oh. That's right. You're one of the players near here. I was like "How the hell does he know George Moses???" Your post about the Mon-El character over on the Rogue thread now makes a whole lot of sense. I read that and was thinking "Hey, I know a guy who played a Mon-El clone..."

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

WTF???

 

Oh. That's right. You're one of the players near here. I was like "How the hell does he know George Moses???" Your post about the Mon-El character over on the Rogue thread now makes a whole lot of sense. I read that and was thinking "Hey, I know a guy who played a Mon-El clone..."

 

Used to be from OKC, played in George's Vanguard Game as Z-man. George was the first GM I had ever to say if the rules get in the way of the story scrap em. He never even brought NPC sheets to the table so he could adjust what he was doing on the fly.

 

I miss that game.

 

Hawksmoor

[zornwil]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

Personally, if one wanted to be semi-realistic, I could see requiring an Architecture or a DEX (after all, you're balancing this huge thing on two puny hands) or a similar roll. I wouldn't do that for most buildlings, but if one wanted to hoist a massive structure by one corner that was just way beyond belief, such as the WTC, I might require such. But I don't know that I would, I mostly go with comic book physics.

 

PS - and Hyper-man, if you're reading this, your PMs are full so I can't PM you, and Shadowpup put something for you in a thread congratulating you over 3K over at NGD.

[OddHat]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

Personally' date=' if one wanted to be semi-realistic, I could see requiring an Architecture or a DEX (after all, you're balancing this huge thing on two puny hands) or a similar roll. I wouldn't do that for most buildlings, but if one wanted to hoist a massive structure by one corner that was just way beyond belief, such as the WTC, I might require such. But I don't know that I would, I mostly go with comic book physics.[/quote']

 

The Hoist skill is suggested for this in the Ultimate Brick.

[zornwil]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

The Hoist skill is suggested for this in the Ultimate Brick.

Thanks, I still haven't read it, though I have it. I thought at the opening of the thread it was said there was no such skill, was this mentioned later? Or am I confusing what this does versus what Hyper-man asked?

[OddHat]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

Thanks' date=' I still haven't read it, though I have it. I thought at the opening of the thread it was said there was no such skill, was this mentioned later? Or am I confusing what this does versus what Hyper-man asked?[/quote']

 

You have now confused me.

 

The hoist skill allows you to lift things without having them fall apart under their own weight in campaigns using more realistic physics. I'm not sure if a more specific explanation is alowed. It is not quite the automatic Gladiator type Super-Strength Hyperman is talking about, but it is close.

[zornwil]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

You have now confused me.

 

The hoist skill allows you to lift things without having them fall apart under their own weight in campaigns using more realistic physics. I'm not sure if a more specific explanation is alowed. It is not quite the automatic Gladiator type Super-Strength Hyperman is talking about, but it is close.

I just meant that I missed that this skill already existed at all, and did not see where it was brought up earlier, though upon closer review I see now it did come up in the thread, I just breezed by too fast.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

I just meant that I missed that this skill already existed at all' date=' and did not see where it was brought up earlier, though upon closer review I see now it did come up in the thread, I just breezed by too fast.[/quote']

 

Post Ho!

 

Hawksmoor

[zornwil]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

Post Ho!

 

Hawksmoor

Sometmies I run aground on them! Bad Navigation skill...still, being a Speedster, I get by...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

Many powers wouldn't exist at all. However' date=' you could do some cool stuff with cybernetics and equipment, surgical modifications, and massive doses of the right drugs. Might make a fun cyberpunk campaign with capes. [/quote']

 

Seen the game Underground?

 

Basically loads of corporate wars in which they surgically, cybernetically and psychologically created supermen to fight the wars. Thenm the wars ended and they came back home.

 

The characters have superpowers, but no flight without a jet pack, no teleporting as the tech doesn't exist and so on. Takes exactly the opposite approach to Champions: every power is specifically defined as to what it is, what it does and what the sfx are. It is pretty gritty and a really interesting read even if you never play it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantage on STR that lets you lift the FF's Baxtor Building in one piece

 

My answer on this topic, though, is to define the sfx of your strength. If you define it as "tactile telekinesis", or as "5th dimensional strength" or even "Silver Age genre convention", then the sfx is different than mere "superstrength". No point difference, no big deal.

 

GMs, ask yourself this. If you're charging this character 10+ points for the ability to lift buildings without them crumbling, is that ability more useful than +10 PD? Because, hell, I know where I'm spending those points.

 

 

...and why would you get figured characteristics from tactile telekinesis?