Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

Well, I consider these 'tricky' but not really 'counter-intuitive', but what the hell:

 

1. Wicked Lazer fires his Nasty Beam (3d6+1 RKA with +2 STUNx) at young sidekick Wonder Boy and hits. If Wonder Boy's ED/rED is 20/10 and Wicked Lazer rolls 11 BODY and a '4' on the STUNx die, how much damage does Wonder Boy take? What if he rolls a '1' on the STUNx die?
    
    
   
2. The GM is having the villian Bio-Flame do battle with the Mighty Mahogany Man, a new PC. Bio-Flame lets loose with his Terrible Torch power (9d6 EB AP) and burns the Wooden Warrior. Mighty Mahogany Man has 25 ED and 25% Energy Damage Reduction, but he also has a Vulnerability to Flame Attacks (1.5x STUN). If Bio-Flame rolls 29 STUN damage on the dice, how much does the Mighty Mahogany Man take?
    
    
   
3. Powerman (SPD 5) did a full move and smashed through the skylight on Phase 3. On Phase 5 he flies a half-move towards the Terror Team and blasts Fear with a pushed Power Blast. Powerman then declares he's going to do a Presence Attack on Loathing (SPD 4), the remaining member of the team. When does his Presence Attack go off? Will Loathing get a chance to respond?

 

I'll post the answers later.

 

It's later!

 

1. 1 BODY and 35 STUN/1 BODY and 13 STUN
   11 BODY - 10 rED = 1 BODY
   (1d6-1 +2 STUNx)
   4 - 1 = 3, 3 + 2 = 5, 5 x 11 = 55 STUN, 55 STUN - 20 ED = 35 STUN
   1 - 1 = 1 (cannot be 0), 1 + 2 = 3, 3 x 11 = 33 STUN, 33 STUN - 20 ED = 13 STUN
   (Remember to calculate the 1d6-1 and then add the +2)
    
    
   
2. 22 STUN
   29 STUN x 1.5 Vuln = 43.5 STUN
   43 STUN - 13 ED = 30 STUN
   30 STUN x .75 DR = 22.5 STUN
   (Remember to round at each step of the calculation)
    
    
   
3. Loathing got to go in Phase 3 and will get to go in Phase 6, but none of that matters because Powerman's Presence Attack can go off whenever, including right after his attack.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

...actually I can't really think of many examples of counter-intuitive rules, because if I find one, I take a hammer out of my 'toolkit' and use it to hit the rule until it is a more acceptable shape.

 

One example:

 

Never did understand why someone who is grabbed necessarily has to stop moving, or even fall if they were flying, so if Gravitron has gravity nullifying flight and can normally lift 5 tons and still fly, when the 250kg Mongo grabs him he can still fly, and lift the both of them in my games.

 

Remember: toolkits have hammers in them. Use the hammer!

No hammer required.

Unless Gravitron's Flight is bought with Restrainable limitation, just being grabbed by someone he can lift has no effect on his ability to fly. Also, depending on what Mongo's STR is Gravitron could potentially break free of the grab as a zero phase action using his casual STR of 20.

 

Now, if Mongo had 6 levels of Density Increase activated when he grabbed Gravitron they would drop like a rock since that weight (6400kg) is more than Gravtron can lift with a 39 STR.

 

Optional rules for flight and lifting also suggest that the active points of flight determines the equivalent STR lifting capacity of the flight. If Gravitron had more than 20" of flight he could bleed off a couple of extra inches of Flight and convert them to STR for lifting purposes and still stay airborne with the Dense Mongo example.

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

Here's a new one.

 

Spoon-Bender has Telekinesis 20 STR and decides to make a 'Telekinetic-Punch' against Square-Jaw who is slowly walking towards him. His 4d6 punch doesn't affect Square-Jaw in the least and he's too heavy to lift with his Telekinesis. Spoon-Bender decides to 'Haymaker' his 'Tk-Punch'. How much damage would it do if he hits?

 

HM

[Sean Waters]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

No hammer required.

Unless Gravitron's Flight is bought with Restrainable limitation, just being grabbed by someone he can lift has no effect on his ability to fly. Also, depending on what Mongo's STR is Gravitron could potentially break free of the grab as a zero phase action using his casual STR of 20.

 

Now, if Mongo had 6 levels of Density Increase activated when he grabbed Gravitron they would drop like a rock since that weight (6400kg) is more than Gravtron can lift with a 39 STR.

 

Optional rules for flight and lifting also suggest that the active points of flight determines the equivalent STR lifting capacity of the flight. If Gravitron had more than 20" of flight he could bleed off a couple of extra inches of Flight and convert them to STR for lifting purposes and still stay airborne with the Dense Mongo example.

 

HM

 

 

From the FAQ (my emphasis):

 

Q: Can a character who has been Grabbed use his Flight to move about, taking the Grabber with him (assuming he has sufficient STR to carry his attacker)?

 

 

 

A: That’s up to the GM based upon the special effects involved, the situation, game balance, dramatic sense, and other factors, but as a default, no. Even if the GM chooses to allow it (at least for some special effects), the flying character may be subject to Encumbrance rules for carrying so much weight. Even if the GM doesn’t allow the Grabbed character to try to “carry†his Grabber, he can still allow the Grabbed character to use his Flight to add to his STR as described on 5ER 364.

 

 

...and i recall seeing a reply to a SL question (which I can't find now...) that indicated that you can't use flight at all if grabbed and you don't break out, not even to hover...

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

Here's a new one.

 

Spoon-Bender has Telekinesis 20 STR and decides to make a 'Telekinetic-Punch' against Square-Jaw who is slowly walking towards him. His 4d6 punch doesn't affect Square-Jaw in the least and he's too heavy to lift with his Telekinesis. Spoon-Bender decides to 'Haymaker' his 'Tk-Punch'. How much damage would it do if he hits?

 

Hunh. The issue pretty much comes down to whether the Haymaker adds 4DC straight to the attack (+20 STR TK) or if it is prorated by the cost of the TK (+13 STR TK).

 

I'm going to guess it's prorated: 6.5d6

 

Aside: As a GM, in play, off the top of my head, and hating half dice, I'd say the punch now does 8d6. When that bounces off Square-Jaw, I hope the little wimp Spoon-Bender takes the hint and runs.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

Hunh. The issue pretty much comes down to whether the Haymaker adds 4DC straight to the attack (+20 STR TK) or if it is prorated by the cost of the TK (+13 STR TK).

 

I'm going to guess it's prorated: 6.5d6

 

Aside: As a GM, in play, off the top of my head, and hating half dice, I'd say the punch now does 8d6. When that bounces off Square-Jaw, I hope the little wimp Spoon-Bender takes the hint and runs.

I am in total agreement with you. I was shocked when I noticed that 5er has an example in the sidebar on page 389 that says a Haymaker applied to Telekinesis only adds 2 1/2d6. If Spoonbender spent 10 extra points for Fine Manipulation he could then buy Martial Manuevers for his TK and they would get their FULL damage bonus (+2DC Martial Strike). Very Strange and disconcerting when compared with my original Knuckles and Mr. Sneaky examples.

 

HM

[Sean Waters]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

...and just to be a bit more confusing and contradictory, also from the FAQ:

 

Q: What happens if a character Grabs a moving character (typically, but not necessarily, with Telekinesis) — does the moving character instantly decelerate to 0†of movement?

 

 

 

A: When a moving character is Grabbed, he immediately gets a standard Casual STR Roll to break out. If the GM is using the optional rule on 5ER 364 regarding the effect of movement on STR, then the character’s Casual STR would be calculated with that in mind. If the roll succeeds, the character keeps moving until the end of his declared inches of movement (assuming he wasn’t there already). If the roll fails, the character is reduced to 0†of movement and remains in the hex where he was Grabbed; he has to break out in the usual fashion, without gaining any STR benefit from movement.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

From the FAQ (my emphasis):

IMHO, Steve's application of the word "Default" is based on several comic book conventions. Also, most default comic Bricks like Thing and Hulk weigh far more than 100kg and as a "Default" would cause a character like Human Torch to drop like a rock if they grabbed him. However, as a counter example, an episode of Justice League showed Solomon Grundy (DC's version of HULK) grab Superman and Superman was still able to fly and in fact used flight to in effect make a movethrough against the ground with Grundy between him and the ground. Very appropriate. Not a use of a Hammer at all, just dramatic sense.

 

HM

[Sean Waters]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

I am in total agreement with you. I was shocked when I noticed that 5er has an example in the sidebar on page 389 that says a Haymaker applied to Telekinesis only adds 2 1/2d6. If Spoonbender spent 10 extra points for Fine Manipulation he could then buy Martial Manuevers for his TK and they would get their FULL damage bonus (+2DC Martial Strike). Very Strange and disconcerting when compared with my original Knuckles and Mr. Sneaky examples.

 

HM

 

Is this a specific rule for TK or has 5ER changed from FRED272 which says that you don't pro-rate haymakers, MA and so on?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

Is this a specific rule for TK or has 5ER changed from FRED272 which says that you don't pro-rate haymakers' date=' MA and so on?[/quote']

This is a specific "guideline" in the sidebar. The same sidebar also includes examples of Haymaker applied to things like Ego Attack, Entangle, Drains etc.. . All make good sense IMHO except Telekinesis.

 

HM

[Sean Waters]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

IMHO, Steve's application of the word "Default" is based on several comic book conventions. Also, most default comic Bricks like Thing and Hulk weigh far more than 100kg and as a "Default" would cause a character like Human Torch to drop like a rock if they grabbed him. However, as a counter example, an episode of Justice League showed Solomon Grundy (DC's version of HULK) grab Superman and Superman was still able to fly and in fact used flight to in effect make a movethrough against the ground with Grundy between him and the ground. Very appropriate. Not a use of a Hammer at all, just dramatic sense.

 

HM

 

I'm pretty sure if you check with Mr Long he'll be telling you that you can't use movement powers (except possibly teleport) when grabbed 'unless the GM allows it'. Not even to hover in place. The default position is 'no'

 

The Thing is supposed to weigh about 400lbs and The Hulk maybe twice that so they are not at all heavy in Champions terms. Most characters in Champions, brick or otherwise, weight 100kg or thereabouts, and most characters can lift that and more, whatever their concept.

 

I can quote any number of examples where a grabbed flier continues to fly and manoeuvre from comics, I'm just saying that isn't how it works in Hero by default, and that, to me, seems counter-intuitive.

 

On the other hand there are probably good game balance reasons for doing it. Brick grabs flier, flier goes straight up and says 'You can KO me, but you can't take the 30d6 damage from the fall: whatchagonnado?' Or flier gets to move by the ground to scape the brick off, or zooms up into space and the brick explodes or...whatever. Bricks have a sacred place in Champions, and we can't have rules that don't work in theri favour.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

This is a specific "guideline" in the sidebar. The same sidebar also includes examples of Haymaker applied to things like Ego Attack, Entangle, Drains etc.. . All make good sense IMHO except Telekinesis.

 

HM

 

I'd probably pro-rate everything as a default, powers with advantages, stuff that cost more than +5 points per 1d6. Never made much sense to just add 4d6 regardless to me.

 

Mind you I'm not keen on letting haymakers be used for anything other than punching, and damn the game balance, so it wouldn't often be an issue.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

Hunh. The issue pretty much comes down to whether the Haymaker adds 4DC straight to the attack (+20 STR TK) or if it is prorated by the cost of the TK (+13 STR TK).

 

I'm going to guess it's prorated: 6.5d6

 

Aside: As a GM, in play, off the top of my head, and hating half dice, I'd say the punch now does 8d6. When that bounces off Square-Jaw, I hope the little wimp Spoon-Bender takes the hint and runs.

Yep, a reference to 1/2 DC in a book that in other places says there is no such thing!

 

I agree with TRL that prorating everything seems more appealing than the current state of consistency among "official rules". However, my guess is that Steve L. made the TK Haymaker decision much earlier/later than the advantaged HA+STR ones.

 

HM

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

And based on those rules, if, instead of TK, I buy Ranged on my STR, and then Haymaker with it, I get the full +4d6, but now it's no longer Ranged!

[spaceprincessecho]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

Wicked Lazer fires his Nasty Beam (3d6+1 RKA with +2 STUNx) at young sidekick Wonder Boy and hits. If Wonder Boy's ED/rED is 20/10 and Wicked Lazer rolls 11 BODY and a '4' on the STUNx die' date=' how much damage does [b']Wonder Boy[/b] take? What if he rolls a '1' on the STUNx die?

 

1 BODY, 35 STUN. If he rolled a 1 on the STUNx it'd be 1 BODY and 2 STUN. Reasons: If you have any resistant defence against an attack, you get to apply your full defences towards the STUN from that attack.

 

The GM is having the villian Bio-Flame do battle with the Mighty Mahogany Man, a new PC. Bio-Flame lets loose with his Terrible Torch power (9d6 EB AP) and burns the Wooden Warrior. Mighty Mahogany Man has 25 ED and 25% Energy Damage Reduction, but he also has a Vulnerability to Flame Attacks (1.5x STUN). If Bio-Flame rolls 29 STUN damage on the dice, how much does the Mighty Mahogany Man take?

 

Important point: None of Mighty Mahogany Man's defences shut down for fire. Second important point: It is susceptability that denies defences (IIRC). Conjecture: Vulnerability applies before defences. Fairly confident statement: Damage Reduction applies after defences. Final output: Mighty Mahogany Man takes 14 STUN (assuming I rounded properly when applying DR).

 

Powerman (SPD 5) did a full move and smashed through the skylight on Phase 3. On Phase 5 he flies a half-move towards the Terror Team and blasts Fear with a pushed Power Blast. Powerman then declares he's going to do a Presence Attack on Loathing (SPD 4), the remaining member of the team. When does his Presence Attack go off? Will Loathing get a chance to respond?

 

Immediately. Presence Attacks take no time at all, and can be done at any time, even on another character's phase or after you've attacked. So, no, Loathing doesn't get to respond between the Power Blast and the Presence Attack.

 

Checking my answers on this, I see I am...

1. Right/wrong. I added the +2 to the 1d6-1 at the onset, coming up with a total STUNx of 1d6+1.

2. Wrong. Query: In the question you said he had 25 ED, in your answer your calculations reflect 13. How does this occur?

3. Right.

[spaceprincessecho]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

Spoon-Bender has Telekinesis 20 STR and decides to make a 'Telekinetic-Punch' against Square-Jaw who is slowly walking towards him. His 4d6 punch doesn't affect Square-Jaw in the least and he's too heavy to lift with his Telekinesis. Spoon-Bender decides to 'Haymaker' his 'Tk-Punch'. How much damage would it do if he hits?

 

I'm inclined to go with 6d6 - Haymaker is 1.5x damage, right? - but that seems too easy. I infer there is some 'catch' that applies specifically to this scenario.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

I'm inclined to go with 6d6 - Haymaker is 1.5x damage' date=' right? - but that seems too easy. I infer there is some 'catch' that applies specifically to this scenario.[/quote']

It sounds like you are trying to apply the old Champions III rules.

 

FYI, ALL the questions on this thread assume use of 5th Edition HERO Rules. If you don't have that book the page number references aren't going to be much use.

 

Per Fifth Edition Revised (5er): Haymaker as a 'default' modifier on a basic punch now adds +4 damage classes. So a character with STR 20 (the Characteristic STR, not Telekinesis STR) would do 8d6 normal damage.

 

HM

[TheEmerged]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

I can't remember if this one is official or one of my long-standing house rules, but it was my understanding the Damage Reduction had no effect against damage due to vulnerabilities or susceptibilies.

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

I can't remember if this one is official or one of my long-standing house rules' date=' but it was my understanding the Damage Reduction had no effect against damage due to vulnerabilities or susceptibilies.[/quote']The "official" rule is that Damage Reduction does protect against Susceptibility damage, but it's at the GM's option. If the GM chooses to allow Damage Reduction to protect against Susceptibility damage, the player may take a Limitation to have his Damage Reduction not protect him. See 5ER p. 144.The extra damage from a Vulnerability is not specifically mentioned. However, the rules for Vulnerabilities indicate that the damage is multiplied before applying "any defenses" (5ER p. 341). I have typically ruled that the Damage Reduction is part of the character's defenses, and therefore does protect against Vulnerable attacks.What you (or your GM) should choose to do is, of course, up to you.

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

The GM is having the villian Bio-Flame do battle with the Mighty Mahogany Man' date=' a new PC. Bio-Flame lets loose with his Terrible Torch power (9d6 EB AP) and burns the Wooden Warrior. Mighty Mahogany Man has 25 ED and 25% Energy Damage Reduction, but he also has a Vulnerability to Flame Attacks (1.5x STUN). If Bio-Flame rolls 29 STUN damage on the dice, how much does the Mighty Mahogany Man take?[/quote']Important point: None of Mighty Mahogany Man's defences shut down for fire. Second important point: It is susceptability that denies defences (IIRC). Conjecture: Vulnerability applies before defences. Fairly confident statement: Damage Reduction applies after defences. Final output: Mighty Mahogany Man takes 14 STUN (assuming I rounded properly when applying DR).

 

2. Wrong. Query: In the question you said he had 25 ED, in your answer your calculations reflect 13. How does this occur?

 

Well, it's an easy point to miss. Terrible Torch is a 9d6 EB AP. Armor Piercing. So the 25 turns to 12.5, or 13 in the favor of the PC.

 

Sorry that I didn't detail that bit more thoroughly. My bad.

 

I wish I had more questions now.

[spaceprincessecho]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

Well' date=' it's an easy point to miss. [i']Terrible Torch[/i] is a 9d6 EB AP. Armor Piercing. So the 25 turns to 12.5, or 13 in the favor of the PC.

 

Ah, I see that now. I just missed it initially.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

After seeing a few other threads questioning damage determination here's a new one for fans of HKA's!

 

Bearcat has claws that give him HKA:

HKA 2d6 x2 Penetrating (+1) Reduced End (0 End) (+1/2) = 75 active points

 

Bearcat has STR 30 and +9" Running (15" total)

Bearcat also has martial arts that includes a Martial Strike (STR +2DC)(4 points) and +2 Damage Classes (8 points)with martial arts.

 

Bearcat can use a Martial Strike to 'punch' someone and do 10d6 normal damage.

 

How much damage can Bearcat do with his claws in the following situations?

1. If he makes a Martial Strike Attack?
   
2. If he makes a Haymaker Attack?
   
3. If he makes a 15" Move Bye?
   
4. If he makes a 15" Move Through?
   

I am NOT absolutely sure on these so I am going to give my initial answers and invite all interrested parties to chime in!

1. 3d6+1 = [ 2d6(base) + 1d6(STR/Advantages on HKA) + .5d6(MA)]
   
2. 4d6 = [ 2d6(base) + 1d6(STR/Advantages on HKA) + 1d6+1(Haymaker) = 4d6+1>2d6(base)x2 so it becomes 4d6 ]
   
3. 3.5d6 = [ 2d6(base) + 1d6(15"/5=3DC's) + .5d6(STR/Advantages on HKA)]
   
4. 4d6 = [ 2d6(base) + 1.5d6(15"/3=5DC's) + 1d6(STR/Advantages on HKA) =4.5d6>2d6(base)x2 so it becomes 4d6 ]
   

Extra Credit!

How much damage does Bearcat take when he performs the Move Bye and Move Through? What if he does no knockback with the Move Through?

 

Enjoy!

 

HM

[That Masked Man]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

1. If he makes a Martial Strike Attack?
   
2. If he makes a Haymaker Attack?
   
3. If he makes a 15" Move Bye?
   
4. If he makes a 15" Move Through?
   

 

Extra Credit!

How much damage does Bearcat take when he performs the Move Bye and Move Through? What if he does no knockback with the Move Through?

 

Enjoy!

 

HM

 

As I understand it, martial maneuvers and haymakers are not divided by advantages, but velocity and strength additions are, so:

 

1. 6 DC base + martial 4DC/2 for killing or 2 DC + Strength 30/(5*2) or 3 DC = 11DC = 3.5d6 KA x2 Penetrating
   
2. 6 DC base + maneuver 4 DC + strength 30/(5*2) or 3 DC = 13 DC limited to 2x base 12 DC = 4d6 KA x2 Penetrating
   
3. 6 DC base + movement 15/(5*2) or 1 DC + Strength 30/(5*2*2) or 1 DC = 8 DC = 2.5d6 KA x2 Penetrating
   
4. 6 DC base + movement 15/(3*2) or 2 DC + Strength 30/(5*2) or 3 DC = 11 DC = 3.5d6 KA x2 Penetrating
   

 

As for the the damage he takes, it is 1/3, 1/2, and full damage done to the target respectively as a normal attack. As far as I can tell, this damage would not be penetrating.

[roch]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

 

The GM is having the villian Bio-Flame do battle with the Mighty Mahogany Man...

 

Well, things look bad for Mighty Mahogany Man, but it could be worse - he could have contracted "veneereal" disease...

 

 

 

(_|(0)

[Constantine]

Re: Game-Time Pop-Quiz for GM's

 

Hmmm, I thought velecity damage classes weren't halved, so my answers are:

Maritial 3d6 +1

Haymaker 3.5d6

Move-by 3d6+1 (No martial manuver listed)

Move through 4.5d6 (ouch!)

 

With the extra credit being none, half, full.