Brick tricks

[Sean Waters]

I am building the characters for a game I'll be running, and I have this brick called Tank that I'm putting together.

 

I was thinking about brick tricks for him, which you can build with naked advantages, or other ways...I got to thinking...

 

The standard strength power tricks are picking up a lampost and using it to gain area effect or at very least a form of stretching on targets or picking up a car and throwing it and getting area effect AND range for your damage.

 

You are not really supposed to rely on power tricks unless they are pretty much one off or rarely used effects. Both the above tactics are very common: should they be allowed?

 

I mean you can get around the lampost trick by requiring it to be rolled as a sweep attack, thus reducing its utility somewhat (but still getting limited stretching for free), but I can't see how you could do the 'throw large object' 'trick' any other way.

 

Strength is not supposed to be able to be used at range, and AE is an expensive advantage you can get 'for free': how do you handle this?

 

One option is to require that brick to buy variable adbantages on strength, or at least AE hex and range for the damage, but that just is not how we do it. We always have allowed it, but, thinking about it, should we allow it for free?

 

OK, now building brick tricks, I'm looking at a 'clap' effect (a Hulk classic): adding explosion as a naked advantage and hearing flash.

 

Now that is easy enough, but I want personal immunity to the damage (bricks never seem to damage themselves when they do this, so I buy PI, but do I apply it as an advantage to Strength (thereby giving immunity, potentially, to the brick's own strength damage, for example on move throughs, which I don't want), or should I apply hte advantage to the cost of the naked advantage: it makes quite a few points difference.

 

Next i want a shockwave: hit the ground, knock everyone around you down, but cause no direct damage. How do i do this? Explosion, double KB, then personal immunity and a limitation 'causes no damage/for KB only'. I don't want the double KB to effect the normal strength, and I don't want the PI to effect the normal uses of strength, AND I don't want the 'no damage' limitation to effect the normal use of strength - just the explosion.

 

I could probably do both of these in some other way: the clap could be an EB with no range equal to the strength with advantages piled on, but that is expensive (or I could add an advantage to the hearing flash to allow it to cause damage). The shockwave could be something similar or even a change environment.

 

I do not have The Ultimate Brick, but I remember earlier editions of Champions suggesting that shockwave was basically a brick manoeuvre. I'm not happy about giving these powerful effects for free, so what is your take on this? The online USPD doesn't have much that applies....

 

Any help gratefully received !

[MitchellS]

Re: Brick tricks

 

Try picking up USPD or The Ultimate Brick. All the things you are wanting to build are already written up in those books. I don't want to duplicate them here as it would be a violation of Hero Games' copyrights. You might also look at the online USPD. There might be some examples there as well, if it hasn't been taken down yet.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Brick tricks

 

Still there, but not very useful in this instance...

 

..I'm not after screeds from the books, but what is your view on the 'free added utility' point by applying your strength through a focus of opportunity for free? Or comments on my suggestions for dealing with my own problems (well the ones about bricks, anyway) or my confusion about advantages on naked advantages?

[Vanguard00]

Re: Brick tricks

 

The standard strength power tricks are picking up a lampost and using it to gain area effect or at very least a form of stretching on targets or picking up a car and throwing it and getting area effect AND range for your damage.

 

You are not really supposed to rely on power tricks unless they are pretty much one off or rarely used effects. Both the above tactics are very common: should they be allowed?

 

Yes, but as you say, if it’s gonna be a regular occurrence then you should require the PC to pay for the attack/advantage.

 

I mean you can get around the lampost trick by requiring it to be rolled as a sweep attack, thus reducing its utility somewhat (but still getting limited stretching for free), but I can't see how you could do the 'throw large object' 'trick' any other way.

 

Strength is not supposed to be able to be used at range, and AE is an expensive advantage you can get 'for free': how do you handle this?

 

Who said strength can’t be used at range? Any character with TK is using strength at range.

 

But, to answer your question…I don’t know. I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking. If you’re asking how to disallow such things if the character hasn’t paid for them, that would depend on the situation. For example, if once again your character is planning on uprooting a telephone pole to whack the bad guy with, have the power lines suddenly become an immediate danger for innocent bystanders. Or maybe the city is pretty darn tired of the good guy destroying property every fight. Or maybe the character simply crushes the light pole ‘accidentally’ during the uprooting phase, thus making it virtually worthless. There are myriad ways to enforce the expenditure of points. But again, I’m not sure what track you’re on.

 

One option is to require that brick to buy variable advantages on strength, or at least AE hex and range for the damage, but that just is not how we do it. We always have allowed it, but, thinking about it, should we allow it for free?

 

Why? Other characters have to pay points for their powers. It’s only fair to make a brick pay for his. You don’t allow a light projecting character to brighten up the place automatically, do you? That’s what the Images power & “only to create light†limitation is for. Or a fire-wielding character to heat a room? That’s Change Environment.

 

Within reason I could see allowing pertinent game-enhancing tricks on an extremely-rare basis, but a general “for free†rule seems abusive to me.

 

OK, now building brick tricks, I'm looking at a 'clap' effect (a Hulk classic): adding explosion as a naked advantage and hearing flash.

 

Now that is easy enough, but I want personal immunity to the damage (bricks never seem to damage themselves when they do this, so I buy PI, but do I apply it as an advantage to Strength (thereby giving immunity, potentially, to the brick's own strength damage, for example on move throughs, which I don't want), or should I apply hte advantage to the cost of the naked advantage: it makes quite a few points difference.

 

I would probably buy this as an NND attack (vs. hard ear covers, hearing flash defense, etc), explosion, PI, then add a linked hearing flash attack—as opposed to simply trying to build on existing Strength, that is.

 

Next I want a shockwave: hit the ground, knock everyone around you down, but cause no direct damage. How do I do this? Explosion, double KB, then personal immunity and a limitation 'causes no damage/for KB only'. I don't want the double KB to effect the normal strength, and I don't want the PI to effect the normal uses of strength, AND I don't want the 'no damage' limitation to effect the normal use of strength - just the explosion.

 

Here’s an example of a shockwave, per The Ultimate Brick:

 

26 Shockwave: Hole In The Middle (the hex the character stands in when he uses the power; +1/4), Explosion (+1/2) for up to 60 Active Points of STR, Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback (+0), Side Effects (may cause considerable damage to the environment; +0) (45 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Only Affects Targets On The Ground (-1/4)

4

 

I have to echo MitchellS‘s sentiments, though. The USPD and Ultimate Brick books are exactly what you need.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Brick tricks

 

Certain Brick Tricks should be free, provided the brick doesn't use them in every battle...only when its dramatically important to do so.

 

Simply picking up a car and tossing it up the street doesn't need to be paid for...unless the brick takes to hauling a car around with him. Its a convention of the genre and one so common, no one should have to pay points for it, as anyone strong enough to lift the car can do so. Same thing with street lamps and other pole-like objects. Bricks are constantly ripping these things out of the pavement and bashing enemies with them. I'd say thats another "free" trick.

 

If you want a brick that exceptionally effective at these things, take a page from the UMA and write them up as Weapons of Opportunity simply with the Area of Effect advantage (any area) added to it.

[Kelcyron]

Re: Brick tricks

 

The general rule is: if it's something that's only going to be done once or twice, it's a power skill thing; if it's something that's going to be done on a regular basis the character needs to pay points for it. For variant ways of doing damage (area, etc), naked advantages on strength covers it; if you don't want the character affected by his own area attacks, consider Hole in the Middle instead of PI. For things like the thunderclap, link the appropriate power to the strength.

 

If you can somehow get a copy of Ultimate Brick, it really is the way to go for examples of things like this (and other things bricks do).

 

Kelcyron

[simplygnome]

Re: Brick tricks

 

Seriously, there comes a time when the points hoarding NEEDS to stop.

 

A brick throwing a car, a TKer throwing a car.....Thats what you DO with things when you have a lot of strength..You throw them, smash them, etc...No points needed.

 

Our team energy projector constantly flies around buildings to get cover....!!! Wow...how abusive! He didnt pay points for that building! He should just stand there and get hit!!!

 

Certainly it gives the "big smashies" an advantage, but I'm not going to penalize my players for applying tactics to a battle....Power tricks are usable by anyone who wants them....Some just have to be smarter than others when applying those tricks. What about an energy projector that blasts out the foundation of a building and has the entire building crumble around Generic Villian #5 and his posse. Thats a huge damage AOE, but HE DIDNT PAY POINTS FOR IT..Shame on him!!!

 

Seriously - Its a creative use of the power.

 

Your brick paid points for STRENGTH...not just "URG HIT WELL!!". Strength is brute muscle, and that applies to everything that goes with it: the ability to lift, smash, push...etc.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Brick tricks

 

Seriously' date=' there comes a time when the points hoarding NEEDS to stop.[/quote']

 

In some cases, though, it's not about "points hoarding." It's about concept. Does your character plan on destroying a lot of property during the fights? In other words, is the player having the character destroy a lot of cars, light posts, etc, during every battle? Then he should be held accountable, either in terms of points (for the variety of attacks) or in-game for the damage he does.

 

Your brick paid points for STRENGTH...not just "URG HIT WELL!!". Strength is brute muscle, and that applies to everything that goes with it: the ability to lift, smash, push...etc.

 

I understand where you're coming from, and there's certainly an argument for such, but I'm not about to give my brick players free rein to apply Area Effect, Stretching, Entangle effects, or anything else on a regular basis without some sort of mechanic or conceptual restraint. The potential for abuse is very high. Again, the occassional use of the environment is to be both encouraged and applauded, but continual abuse of the system and the GM's good graces should not.

[Jhamin]

Re: Brick tricks

 

I have to agree with SimplyGnome to an extent.

 

If you are really strong, you can huck cars and swing lampposts for free.

 

The real utility of Brick Tricks isn't that you are paying points for common uses of STR. It's that you are taking advantage of the powers system to bypass the problems of relying on Str alone.

 

For example: When you hit someone with an object, you can only inflict damage equal to your STR *OR* the total def + Body of the object, whichever is lower. If you have a 70 Str it's going to be hard to find a lamp post that has a total of 14 DEF & Body, meaning that you won't get your full Str at range. On the other hand, if you buy stretching OIF: Lamppost, only to infict damage, you can do your full 14 dice even if the lamppost normally couldn't take it.

 

The same with wrapping someone up in metal. Normally you spend a half-action to rip a bar out of the ground, another one to grab your enemy, and a third half-action to wrap him up. If you are strong enough you might be able to rip the pole out of the ground as a free action, but it still takes two halfs to get the rest of it.

If you buy "the great wrap up" as an entangle, you can fire it off in a half phase like anyone else. When you are fighting fast enemies, ever half action is critical.

 

Or hucking cars. The damage issue from above still applies, and if you buy a car chuck as an AofE eb not only do you bypass the penalties for unbalanced nonaerodynamic weapons, you can haymaker it, rapid fire it, and so on. You can't do that if you just use your STR to hurl cars.

 

And so on. A brick doesn't have to pay points to use his str for classic brick tricks, but it can be advantagoues to.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Brick tricks

 

And so on. A brick doesn't have to pay points to use his str for classic brick tricks' date=' but it can be advantagoues to.[/quote']

 

I'm still gonna be careful with it, but you present some good points there. Definitely something to take into consideration.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Brick tricks

 

A good way of saving points is to put some of these "Brick Tricks" into a Multipower.The classic brick "Shockwave" attack can be bought as an HA with the Explosion and Personal Immunity Advantages,for example.

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Brick tricksOne possible solution for the "free AE attack" using a thrown Chevrolet is to use the Target Size modifiers as a bonus to the brick's OCV and use the regular DCV of the target (rather than the DCV 3 hex). This solution is suggested as an alternative on p. 382 of 5ER. I would consider doing this if the players got carried away with throwing large objects rather than closing to HTH range.On the other hand, if you're a brick without ranged attacks, a thrown object might be the only way to deal with a flying opponent. I think it boils down to play balance and player actions. If they're overusing the "free AE" effect, then use the size modifiers instead. Otherwise, it's completely in genre to do this.Just my $0.02.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Brick tricks

 

Can't argue about it being completely genre, and to be honest I've not really given the point much of a thought, even though I know bricks in our games have been using mail trucks to swat high-DEX martial artists for years.

 

Thing is, having an energy blast and an area effect version is completely genre, but you pay for those in the game.

 

Strength is one of those odd instances where the logic of having high strength positively encourages the use of scenery as adjuncts to your arsenal of tactics. The strength table handily lists items you can pick up and how far you can throw them, and the equipment section tells you how many hexes they cover.

 

Just becasue it is logical doesn't mean that you should get it for free: it is beyond sfx in utility. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to use a handy vehicle as a way to make your strength damage ranged and area effect, I'm just wondering if you ought to be paying more for the privilege. I mean you already get +2pd, +2rec and +5stun (a total of 11 character points) from every 10 points you invest in strength, and that is before you take into consideration the damage it does, so I don't feel too sorry for the bricks.

 

Simplygnome mentions that the team energy projector can have the advantage of cover and doesn't pay points for it. Well, so can anyone else in the team, it is not restricted to a certain character concept or power type: anyone can get the advantage of cover. The brick would soon be getting ticked off if 'Soul Sucker', with his strength and body draining powers decided that by grabbing a piece of road furniture he could make his drain ranged and area effect. Just becasue it is logical that the brick can enhance his strength in this way doesn't mean he should get to do it for free,

 

I accept that there are few lampposts that can stand up to doing 14 dice of damage, but most vehicles would be good for that kind of wallop, at least once, and if you are away from built up areas, there are always rocks...

 

As for the energy projector knocking a building onto the villain, oddly I don't mind that as it has its own built in limitations. It is going to take several turns to accomplish, for a start, for any reasonably sized building, it is going to cause huge threat to property and life - which heroes should be cognisant of - and is likely to be as much a threat to the energy projector's buddies as the baddies, IF you can get it to fall the right way, so I think that the ability to do this has inherent limitations that are lacking with the traditional brick-tricks.

 

I have no problem with powers taking advantage of minor side and special effects, so I probably would let a character with a fiery damage shield warm up a room, even though he should have bought change environment, or let the character with light powers illuminate an area just by spreading the attack to the point it does no damage, but if they made a habit of it, I'd want them spending the points.

 

The case of strength is far more relevant because it has clear and substantial effects on combat.

 

Mind you, the game perpetuates the problem. Mikey Mitchell mentions the alternative of using the target's size modifier as a bonus to the OCV of the person wielding it. Whilst this is certainly less abusive than just handing out area effects, it is still a giveaway: just reach out and grab some extra combat skill levels....

 

There was a recent thread about lifting the Baxter Building: how extreme strength relates to the environment in terms of game physics. It strikes me that if we were a little harsher with out interpretation of how you do things, a lot of these problems would go away. I mean, it doesn't matter how strong the character, they can't lift a bus by grabbing the bumper and lobbing it overhand. To actually lift the thing off the ground, you'd have to be under the centre of mass, and throwing it would probably tear it to pieces before it got near the target. Meanwhile the laws governing conservation of momentum and the whole 'equal and opposite force' thing would see the brick hurtled in the other direction at several times the speed.

 

Maybe all we need is a more realistic approach to the application of unrealistic strength...

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Brick tricks

 

 

Maybe all we need is a more realistic approach to the application of unrealistic strength...

 

 

Maybe.

 

But wouldn't that also destroy the feel of classic four-color Superhero action?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Brick tricks

 

The classic 4 colour brick would have a reason to spend points on area effect and range for his strength damage, and not feel like he's just wasting them.

 

Anyway, in all the years of DC comics, when has The Green Arrow or Batman ever been crushed under a truck, or swatted with a lamp post, even when they face super-strong opponents.

 

If Doc Ock throws a car in Spiderman, it is more than likely to make Spidey rescue the poor innocents in the path of it than to try and hit the agile web-slinger himself.

 

Chucking cars and lorries around is very four colour, actually using them for weapons is not.

[Lanith]

Re: Brick tricks

 

My few cents on the subject:

 

If a brick picks up a car and tosses it down the street at the baddy; OK, someone is gonna get upset, but still OK. If he does it every combat, the police/civilians/insurance companies are going to have a problem with him and start taking his super-strong butt to court.

 

I agree with both sides of this argument, the occasional "brick trick" to gain an advantage is part of the genre. Abuse of your tricks is... abuse.

 

If the player in your game keeps "finding" a new gimick ("It's not a car, I threw a bank vault this time") start messing with his fine plan. Have people hide in those cars, get some normal dweeb to take him to court, have the police charge him with reckless endangerment, etc etc.

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Brick tricks

My few cents on the subject:If a brick picks up a car and tosses it down the street at the baddy; OK' date=' someone is gonna get upset, but still OK. If he does it [b']every[/b] combat, the police/civilians/insurance companies are going to have a problem with him and start taking his super-strong butt to court.I agree with both sides of this argument, the occasional "brick trick" to gain an advantage is part of the genre. Abuse of your tricks is... abuse.If the player in your game keeps "finding" a new gimick ("It's not a car, I threw a bank vault this time") start messing with his fine plan. Have people hide in those cars, get some normal dweeb to take him to court, have the police charge him with reckless endangerment, etc etc.

Any of this works. Other options: Restrict the available objects. Have the scenario take place late at night, with few or no cars on the street. In a grassy meadow. Inside a building, with nothing but fragile furniture to use. Or, on a Chinese or Thai street - lots of bicycles, not so many cars.If you insist on making the brick types pay for the privilege of using objects as missiles, don't forget the "OIF - large / heavy objects of opportunity" Limitation. If they have to pay points, it's only fair to acknowledge that suitable missiles won't always be available.

[Supreme]

Re: Brick tricks

 

I look at it like this:

 

The more points you spend, the less I enforce the laws of physics.

 

Spend 0 points on Power Skill or Brick Trick powers, and that lamp-post -- which is not built to withstand the g-force of being swung like a bat -- is just as likely to come apart in your hands as actually hit someone.

 

Spend 3 points on Power Skill, and I'll let you make one area effect attack in an Area effect line (each hex within that line is also subject to an activation roll as the pole is coming apart as it comes down).

 

Spend whatever points you want on EB with whatever variable Area Effect defined as hitting people with whatever you have handy... You paid the points. It's your power now.

[simplygnome]

Re: Brick tricks

 

Thing is' date=' having an energy blast and an area effect version is completely genre, but you pay for those in the game.[/quote']

 

Actually, what I am getting at is that EVERY character can do these things. If the blaster hits a fuel truck with his energy blast, would this not create an AOE??? Certaintly you wont make him pay POINTS for that would you?? - Advantage: the ability to shoot a fuel tanker +1/4, the abilitiy to shoot explosive chemical vats +1/4, the ability to shoot anything possibly volitile (my cooking, for example...nasty splash damage on that one) +1/4.

 

The blaster may have a few more limitations, but he can still do the same tricks as a brick...or even different ones.

 

Same as the Brick...this is very destructive to the background and too many uses WILL have the police on your tail.

 

The balance comes from "What kind of players do you have". If all of them are backstabbing evil doers, then YES they will use this ALL THE TIME.. If they are heros of any type, they probably shouldnt...and might need RP reinforcement to show why...

 

 

 

Strength is one of those odd instances where the logic of having high strength positively encourages the use of scenery as adjuncts to your arsenal of tactics. The strength table handily lists items you can pick up and how far you can throw them' date=' and the equipment section tells you how many hexes they cover.[/quote']

 

Maybe I have a different playstyle??? When I have ANY power, I ALWAYS see how I can apply it to my advantage...if its in character, of course. Is the enemy near a pit? Then Im going to try to do as much KB as possible (energy blast, hth, or otherwise). I didnt pay points for the pit, but I used it none the less...Same with the car...same with the building...

 

STR IS very useful and I DO see your arguments....But I have the same utility with an energy blast, mind control, TK, Drains (ooh look, I drained BODY from the main support beam of the building we're in...bye bye now!!! *crash), and other such powers....It all depends on how you use them...

 

I will say this: Limit the players! Have the constable FINE them for breaking cars so much. Make the public go crazy at their carelessness. Make all badly missed rolls go out out of control - have the cars hit citizens...Dont make the aoe so predictable -- cars roll, cars explode...make it so. Hurt the players teammate if he botches to show him that he has to be careful with his wanton destruction...!!

 

I paid points for my strength...To penalize me for using STRATEGY is silly, in my own opinion of course.

 

Anyone with any power can take advantage of their own unique abilites.....With just as much effectiveness as any brick...

 

 

AND Jhamin -- Thank you very much for the other logical bits of information (as my previous message WAS a bit irrate =P but in a friendly way). The points you bring up about STR alone have several downfalls in exchange for the conservation of CP was EXTREMELY insightful...

---------------------------------

For note:

 

Now, the "shockwave" brick trick is a bit over the top. Thats almost a special effect unto itself...The suggestion of requiring higher levels of pwer trick to do certain things seem to apply here (or even buy this one outright).

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Brick tricksOne more thing to think about - remember that the brick takes an OCV penalty for throwing an unbalanced, unaerodynamic object (-4) when he tosses that Chevy. If you apply the target size modifiers instead of AoE, plus RMods, he's less likely to hit than he would be with a typical Strike maneuver. Should solve the problem.As for Batman, Spidey, etc. never getting swatted with a car - these characters can use Dive for Cover or (gasp!) Flying Dodge. Not to start another war over these maneuvers, but it should be relatively easy for a high-DEX character with extra SPD to avoid getting tagged with that tossed transportation. Especially by a SPD 4 brick with DEX of 20 (which is fairly typical).Aside: My favorite characters in the comics were typically the quick ones - Spidey, Nightcrawler, and so forth. (The opening sequence of X-Men 2 warmed my heart.) I've found that, game mechanics-wise, if you want such a character to have any chance of functioning, a high SPD is essential, for exactly this reason. The high DEX won't stop an AE attack; you have to have extra actions available to get out of the way. And, yes, I know it's somewhat off-topic; bear with me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Brick tricks

 

Actually, what I am getting at is that EVERY character can do these things. If the blaster hits a fuel truck with his energy blast, would this not create an AOE??? Certaintly you wont make him pay POINTS for that would you?? - Advantage: the ability to shoot a fuel tanker +1/4, the abilitiy to shoot explosive chemical vats +1/4, the ability to shoot anything possibly volitile (my cooking, for example...nasty splash damage on that one) +1/4.

 

The blaster may have a few more limitations, but he can still do the same tricks as a brick...or even different ones.

 

Same as the Brick...this is very destructive to the background and too many uses WILL have the police on your tail.

 

I'd have to point out that, in the average setting, large heavy objects are far more readily available than vats of explosive chemicals, and the vat is fixed in place: if the villain won't go near it the energy blaster can't blow it up...large heavy objects can be chucked anywhaere you like.

 

 

Maybe I have a different playstyle??? When I have ANY power, I ALWAYS see how I can apply it to my advantage...if its in character, of course. Is the enemy near a pit? Then Im going to try to do as much KB as possible (energy blast, hth, or otherwise). I didnt pay points for the pit, but I used it none the less...Same with the car...same with the building...

 

STR IS very useful and I DO see your arguments....But I have the same utility with an energy blast, mind control, TK, Drains (ooh look, I drained BODY from the main support beam of the building we're in...bye bye now!!! *crash), and other such powers....It all depends on how you use them...

 

I will say this: Limit the players! Have the constable FINE them for breaking cars so much. Make the public go crazy at their carelessness. Make all badly missed rolls go out out of control - have the cars hit citizens...Dont make the aoe so predictable -- cars roll, cars explode...make it so. Hurt the players teammate if he botches to show him that he has to be careful with his wanton destruction...!!

 

I paid points for my strength...To penalize me for using STRATEGY is silly, in my own opinion of course.

 

Anyone with any power can take advantage of their own unique abilites.....With just as much effectiveness as any brick...

 

 

AND Jhamin -- Thank you very much for the other logical bits of information (as my previous message WAS a bit irrate =P but in a friendly way). The points you bring up about STR alone have several downfalls in exchange for the conservation of CP was EXTREMELY insightful...

---------------------------------

For note:

 

Now, the "shockwave" brick trick is a bit over the top. Thats almost a special effect unto itself...The suggestion of requiring higher levels of pwer trick to do certain things seem to apply here (or even buy this one outright).

 

 

No, I'll do whatever I can get away with as well, I'm just stepping back a little here because I got to thinking as I built Tank: he's low OCV (comparatively) so what tactics will he be using, and I assumed he'd be neutralising his OCV problem with big heavy stuff, so I got to thinking that he should pay for it.

 

I don't want to discourage people using the environment tactically, but I do think that STR has a lot more opportunity to do so than most other powers. Occasionally blowing up a petrol tanker may be a power trick, used once every five to ten games. Picking up something heavy and swapping with it will happen all the time.

 

A power trick that is in regular use should be paid for with points.

 

MikeyMitchell: I appreciate your good points about the fact that most objects of opportunity will be hard to throw, but you can still use them as hand to hand weapons without taking those penalties, so I still see that as only a partial solution.

[Vorsch]

Re: Brick tricks

 

A power trick that is in regular use should be paid for with points.

It was paid for with points, Str costs points. It allows you to throw things, its even in the rules.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Brick tricks

 

It was paid for with points' date=' Str costs points. It allows you to throw things, its even in the rules.[/quote']

 

An excellent point, but could the rules be wrong? The underlying principle of the Hero system is you pay for what you get and there is some sort of parity (not perfect: what is?) between costs for different powers that do the same thing. We've always let high strength be used (and probably quite rightly - to do otherwise would make no sense) to throw large objects, or small ones for that matter, but the rules say you can not buy the ranged advantage for your strength. Of course you do not need it if you can just pick stuff up and chuck it without paying points for it.

 

How would you deal with someone who wanted to carry around a sack of steel cricket balls to add (throw) range to his strength? It is in the rules you can throw stuff, if you can afford to buy steel cricket balls, why not?

 

Because an EB limited to throw range is paid for with a -1/4 limitation (range based on strength). If that is what you want to be able to do, pay for it.

 

As I mentioned, the rules specifically say you can't buy ranged for strength, then let you have ranged, in essence, for free. Is it possible the rules are not right? It effects the active points total of strength, for example. 50 strength that you can use at throw range with objects of opportunity should cost an extra (50x.25/1.5)-50=8 character points. I mean, it isn't a lot, is it?

 

Adding area effect to your strength would cost (50x.5/1.5)=17 CP or double that (well, 33 points) for full AE. Again, not a lot, really for what you are getting.

 

For 25 points you could add throw range and a one hex AE to your 50 strength with objects of opportunity. All paid up legal like.

 

(or you could buy a 10d6 EB limited to throw range (-.25, or -12 points) with AE hex (+25 points) ALL limited to objects of opportunity (-.5 for a final total of 42 points). More expensive, but it gets around the problem with increasing the active points cap if that is a consideration.

 

Paying for it this way would have two effects though:

 

1. There would be no arguing about appropriate use

2. If you run active points caps, you would take the added utility into consideration

 

As simplygnome says, he uses powers to their full effect if possible: so do I when I have the wit to do so. Maybe most people don't abuse the game as I apparently do, and if they don't regularly throw stuff or swat martial artists with large objects, there is no reason to charge them to be able to do so, but if they do....

[MitchellS]

Re: Brick tricks

 

Thing is' date=' having an energy blast and an area effect version is completely genre, but you pay for those in the game.[/quote']

Our game has a house rule for spreading energy blasts: -1 DC for AE 1hex, -2 DC for each inch of area around the hex. So a 12d6 attack can do an 11d6 AE 1hex attack, a 9d6 1" radius attack, a 7d6 2" radius attack, etc. The area effect advantage is only used for powers which always cover an area. We haven't found this house rule to be too unbalancing and it offsets the advantage a brick would get from using something large to cover an area as well.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Brick tricks

 

A very good plan, although the brick still gets to use his full damage AND area effect if he can find something with sufficient DEF+BODY, it does go a long way to redressing the balance.

 

Don't you find that this makes the one hex AE advantage pretty pointless though? Applied to a 60 ActivePoint EB it would reduce the DC of the attack to 8d6, whereas by your house rule they get it at 11d6?

 

To be honsest I think I like your way better, but I'd probably do -2DC for one hex, then -2 per inch around it, and maybe make area effect a bit cheaper (+.25 for one hex and +.5 for radius, maybe).

 

Probably about time we heard from some speedsters and martial artists not keen on the way this is going....