Where else do you roll down?

[savagewolf]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

Where else do you roll down?

In GURPS for example

 

 

I have myself thought about that but:

1)it is just a cosmetic change

2) some rule don't translate well. for example if you roll under half your target number with some skill (like breakfall, danger sense etc.) you get a bonus. this is impossible to translate with the "roll over system"

3) when the roll reflect a random chance of something happening (like how many chance there are that this bridge gives way before I succed to reach the safety of the other side? ) a roll under the chance of success seems more adeguate (and in fact the d20 system use to roll under the target number with a percentile dice in those istances)

 

However the roll over system could be used for simulate a "mirror universe" were the physical laws are opposite to ours. It could be interesting to see the heroes of our universe that for some reason travel to that other universe fail when they normally would succed and viceversa

[prestidigitator]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

I dunno, there are a lot of fundamental differences between HERO and d20. By "Ability", do you mean "Feat"? I suppose d20 Feats are like Talents, except d20 has a bajillion feats. (One of the things I hate about it).

 

The Skill systems are kind of similar, although HERO's is more extensive and I believe d20 Skills go from -X -- 43 maximum.

 

I wouldn't say they're anything near EXACTLY alike....

By Abilities I mean Ability Scores, which are the equivalent to Characteristics in Hero. d20 adds a modifier to its Skills based on the value of an Ability just like Hero adds a modifier to its Skills based on the value of a Characteristic. Then you can add, "Ranks," to d20's Skills on top of the Ability Modifier just like you can buy bonuses to Hero's Skills. "Untrained," Skills in d20 are exactly like Everyman Skills in Hero. Ability checks in d20 are exactly like Characteristic Rolls in Hero.

 

The differences are really: 1.) Ranks in d20 are bought with, "Skill Points," and Ability Scores aren't really, "bought," at all, but are assigned independently of other traits at creation and then follow their whole level progression scheme; d20's Ability modifiers go up every 2 points rather than Hero's 5-point graduation for Characteristic Rolls and Characteristic-based Skills (this difference is--I feel--in keeping with the difference between rolling a d20 and rolling 3d6, as in the latter method a +1 tends to make a lot more difference).

 

With minor distinctions such as max Ranks based on level, overall maximums, roll high vs. roll low, etc., they look EXACTLY THE SAME.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

By Abilities I mean Ability Scores, which are the equivalent to Characteristics in Hero. d20 adds a modifier to its Skills based on the value of an Ability just like Hero adds a modifier to its Skills based on the value of a Characteristic. Then you can add, "Ranks," to d20's Skills on top of the Ability Modifier just like you can buy bonuses to Hero's Skills. "Untrained," Skills in d20 are exactly like Everyman Skills in Hero. Ability checks in d20 are exactly like Characteristic Rolls in Hero.

 

The differences are really: 1.) Ranks in d20 are bought with, "Skill Points," and Ability Scores aren't really, "bought," at all, but are assigned independently of other traits at creation and then follow their whole level progression scheme; d20's Ability modifiers go up every 2 points rather than Hero's 5-point graduation for Characteristic Rolls and Characteristic-based Skills (this difference is--I feel--in keeping with the difference between rolling a d20 and rolling 3d6, as in the latter method a +1 tends to make a lot more difference).

 

With minor distinctions such as max Ranks based on level, overall maximums, roll high vs. roll low, etc., they look EXACTLY THE SAME.

 

Given that any similarity between the two sets of rules ends there, I'd say they aren't the same at all. On top of that, there are far more differences between D&D Abilities and Hero Characteristics than there are similarites.... same for each system's rules for Skills. Sure, there are some similarities... but there are some similarities between a forest fire and my microwave oven too.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

I didn't see a lot of comon ground in character creation with D&D 3.0, but combat sure moved a lot closer to the Hero style.

 

I'm particularly noting the "full attack, move + attack or double move" of D&D vs the "Sweep/Rapid Fire, ha;f move and attack or full move" of Hero. Prior to 3e, D&D never really paid much attention to how much movement could be undertaken in a round without impairing your ability to attack.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

I didn't see a lot of comon ground in character creation with D&D 3.0, but combat sure moved a lot closer to the Hero style.

 

I'm particularly noting the "full attack, move + attack or double move" of D&D vs the "Sweep/Rapid Fire, ha;f move and attack or full move" of Hero. Prior to 3e, D&D never really paid much attention to how much movement could be undertaken in a round without impairing your ability to attack.

Actually, D&D 2nd had this as well. You could only half-move if you wanted to attack. The new thing added is that if you move at all (well, more than your, "free," five foot step) you can only make one attack instead of using your whole attack sequence. In Hero this is really the difference between Sweep (without HTH Rapid Fire) and other Half-Phase attack maneuvers such as Strike. Since Sweep came about in 5E, I can't even remember whether this was before or after D&D 3rd.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

Actually' date=' D&D 2nd had this as well. You could only half-move if you wanted to attack. The new thing added is that if you move at all (well, more than your, "free," five foot step) you can only make one attack instead of using your whole attack sequence. In Hero this is really the difference between Sweep (without HTH Rapid Fire) and other Half-Phase attack maneuvers such as Strike. Since Sweep came about in 5E, I can't even remember whether this was before or after D&D 3rd.[/quote']

 

Sweep's been around since 4th or earlier. It's Rapid Fire (Sweep's younger brother) that was introduced in 5th.

 

You are right about 2ndE D&D. Their movement rules were sound and haven't changed much in 3.x. It's funny, but I never really thought of comparing them to Hero's Sweep/Half Move+Attack/Full Move. Makes sense though.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

Given that any similarity between the two sets of rules ends there' date=' I'd say they aren't the same at all. On top of that, there are far more differences between D&D Abilities and Hero Characteristics than there are similarites.... same for each system's rules for Skills. Sure, there are some similarities... but there are some similarities between a forest fire and my microwave oven too.[/quote']

With the exception of some additive constants (e.g. modifiers are actually Ability/2-5 rather than Ability/2 in D&D):

 

Skill roll bonus:

D&D 3rd: Ability/2 + (Skill Ranks)

Hero: Characteristic/5 + (Skill Bonus)

Attack roll bonus:

D&D 3rd: (Base Attack Bonus) + Ability/2 + (Other Modifiers)

Hero: CSLs + Characteristic/3 + (Other Modifiers)

How much more similarity do you want? I'll grant that Untrained Skills work a little bit differently from Everyman Skills in that you get your Ability Modifier in D&D, but none (actually a -1 in effect) in Hero.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

Sweep's been around since 4th or earlier. It's Rapid Fire (Sweep's younger brother) that was introduced in 5th.

 

You are right about 2ndE D&D. Their movement rules were sound and haven't changed much in 3.x. It's funny, but I never really thought of comparing them to Hero's Sweep/Half Move+Attack/Full Move. Makes sense though.

Ah. Was it? It has been too long since 5E came around for me to remember all the differences clearly.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

I can simplify this entire process here and now.

 

I'm a (reformed) veteran d20 GM. I'm new to HERO. Yet, here's a simple metaphor to compare the way I feel about them:

 

-- Trying to do anything original, or create anything unique, in d20 (or many other systems) is like trying to find a post at EN World without the Search function.

 

-- HERO's bread and butter is to do all the things other game systems suck at, while still providing a set of basic gameplay mechanics.

 

So, while there are of course similarities between HERO and d20 -- just as there are similarities between d20 and DP9's Silhouette CORE system -- that's comparing apples and buicks.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

With the exception of some additive constants (e.g. modifiers are actually Ability/2-5 rather than Ability/2 in D&D):

 

 

 

Skill roll bonus:

D&D 3rd: Ability/2 + (Skill Ranks)

 

Hero: Characteristic/5 + (Skill Bonus)

Attack roll bonus:

D&D 3rd: (Base Attack Bonus) + Ability/2 + (Other Modifiers)

 

Hero: CSLs + Characteristic/3 + (Other Modifiers)

How much more similarity do you want? I'll grant that Untrained Skills work a little bit differently from Everyman Skills in that you get your Ability Modifier in D&D, but none (actually a -1 in effect) in Hero.

It's a small nitpick, but the Skill rolls are CHAR/5+9+levels. Besides, they are both roleplaying games; you really can't call them similar just because they both utilize math to figure probability.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

that's comparing apples and buicks.

 

Well put.

 

[prestidigitator]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

It's a small nitpick' date=' but the Skill rolls are CHAR/5+[i']9[/i]+levels. Besides, they are both roleplaying games; you really can't call them similar just because they both utilize math to figure probability.

Did you play D&D 2nd? The Skill (well, "Non-Weapon Proficiency") system was quite far from the way D&D 3rd's Skill system works. For example, there was no core mechanic for increasing them at all (though some source books and plenty of house rules had ways), they all had unique modifiers to their Ability roll, etc. To be sure, there are other game systems with skill mechanics similar to Hero, but even being familiar with several of them, my mind shouted, "Hero," as soon as I saw D&D 3rd. I became even more convinced when I saw all the Feats that increase your Skill rolls for a couple of related skills (SLs, anyone?).

 

BTW, the +9 is really just one of the additive constants I mentioned at the top of my previous post. D&D's could be considered to be Ability/2-5 as well. It all washes out if you consider D&D's DC ("Difficutly Class," IIRC) vs. Hero's (9+situational modifiers). As indicated, I was comparing roll bonuses; that is, the portion of your roll that depends on the value of an Ability/Characteristic, Ranks/Skill Bonuses, etc.

[Kristopher]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

HERO shouldn't make changes or rules decisions based on making people used to other systems comfortable. HERO is HERO, not those other systems, and if we wanted to play those other kinds of systems, we wouldn't be playing HERO.

[archermoo]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

The number 10 is generally more friendly to us because we use a base-ten number system. Quick! Divide 98327402398424 by 11! Now divide it by 10. The first would have been a lot easier for you if you were used to a base-eleven number system (though this may not be a lot of fun in general as 11 is prime). Now, the fact that we have a base-ten number system is almost guaranteed to have something to do with our fingers.

 

Other cultures have certainly used different number systems, though. The Babylonians had a base-sixty number system. Computer programmers get almost as comfortable with binary and hexadeximal (I almost think in powers of two by default these days).

 

And how does it being easier to divide by 10 than 11 make 10 a more attractive number when looking to roll over or under a number on dice?

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

To jump right back onto topic, I believe Dream Pod 9's Silhouette CORE game system is also one where rolling low is the norm for a "good result" (except, as always, in the case of damage).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

Did you play D&D 2nd? The Skill (well' date=' "Non-Weapon Proficiency") system was quite far from the way D&D 3rd's Skill system works. For example, there was no [i']core mechanic[/i] for increasing them at all (though some source books and plenty of house rules had ways),

I really don't want to have this agruement, but I have a psych limit...

 

I did pay D&D 2nd (god forgive me), and there was in fact a core mechanic for increasing them. Each time you picked the NWP, it improved by +1.

To be sure, there are other game systems with skill mechanics similar to Hero, but even being familiar with several of them, my mind shouted, "Hero," as soon as I saw D&D 3rd. I became even more convinced when I saw all the Feats that increase your Skill rolls for a couple of related skills (SLs, anyone?).

Which means that D&D didn't become more like Hero, it became more like several RPGs known for having a solid set of flexible rules.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

I did pay D&D 2nd (god forgive me)' date=' and there [i']was in fact[/i] a core mechanic for increasing them. Each time you picked the NWP, it improved by +1.

 

Now now, Dust Raven, at least AD&D 2nd was better than the new drek they have out these days. I enjoyed AD&D 2nd a lot more than 3rd.

 

Ah, those were the days: when only humans could be Paladins; when getting 7 attacks in a row was out of the question; when we were young, and sexier than we are now, and the logo on all the soda cans was different; back when we were eating our college rations of Ramen Noodles....

 

[Dust Raven]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

Now now, Dust Raven, at least AD&D 2nd was better than the new drek they have out these days. I enjoyed AD&D 2nd a lot more than 3rd.

 

Ah, those were the days: when only humans could be Paladins; when getting 7 attacks in a row was out of the question; when we were young, and sexier than we are now, and the logo on all the soda cans was different; back when we were eating our college rations of Ramen Noodles....

 

 

You are being sarcastic, aren't you?

 

I hated 2nd. 3rd game me options. Not the options I get from Hero, but enough options and consistancy that so long as I stopped buying books after getting the 3 core books I could be happy and run or play in a game that I knew was fair and balanced.

 

Then again, I hated Raman too...

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

You are being sarcastic, aren't you?

 

I hated 2nd. 3rd game me options. Not the options I get from Hero, but enough options and consistancy that so long as I stopped buying books after getting the 3 core books I could be happy and run or play in a game that I knew was fair and balanced.

 

Then again, I hated Raman too...

 

3rd edition has more options, for certain. I agree. It even LOOKS more stylish.

 

But... 2nd felt like a medieval roleplaying game. When I play 3rd... I just... bleh. It's probably just me.

 

Mmmm, Ramen. At a dollar a carton, you just can't beat it, and frankly, I love the flavor!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

It's a small nitpick' date=' but the Skill rolls are CHAR/5+[i']9[/i]+levels. Besides, they are both roleplaying games; you really can't call them similar just because they both utilize math to figure probability.

 

They both have hardcover core rules, and are typeset, printed on paper, in English. How much more simialr can they get?

 

Seriously, I have to agree with other posters who assert that D&D did not change to become more like Hero, but to catch up with the strides the RPG field as a whole had made since 2e was released, to enhance flexibility in characters, and to streamline and better define core rules and mechanics. Whether they went too far, not far enough or in the right direction is a matter of opinion.

[zornwil]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

You are being sarcastic, aren't you?

 

I hated 2nd. 3rd game me options. Not the options I get from Hero, but enough options and consistancy that so long as I stopped buying books after getting the 3 core books I could be happy and run or play in a game that I knew was fair and balanced.

 

Then again, I hated Raman too...

Yeah, but did you eat it? (the Ramen, I mean...)

 

Actually, there's kind of a point in my reply, even if it's entirely tangential...

[zornwil]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

3rd edition has more options, for certain. I agree. It even LOOKS more stylish.

 

But... 2nd felt like a medieval roleplaying game. When I play 3rd... I just... bleh. It's probably just me.

 

Mmmm, Ramen. At a dollar a carton, you just can't beat it, and frankly, I love the flavor!

You're 22. You won't, eventually, I promse you that... (well, you won't "love" it, you may maintain an amiable liking, but if you get to 35 or such and you still "love" it, well, I weep for you, though will envy your pocket book...)

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

Ah, those were the days: when only humans could be Paladins; when getting 7 attacks in a row was out of the question; when we were young, and sexier than we are now, and the logo on all the soda cans was different; back when we were eating our college rations of Ramen Noodles....

 

 

Man that makes me feel old. I pretty much felt exactly the same way with the switch from first to second edition. No Demons, no Devils - just Giants and Dragons.. What's with all this non preofenciecy stuff... and the things they didn't change were things I wanted to see changed (level limits for demi humans was a big one).

 

So I just kept playing 1st ed with my houserules until 3rd came out - and almost all of the changes to third fixed any problem my houserules were fixing.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

Yeah' date=' but did you eat it? (the Ramen, I mean...)[/quote']

 

Of course I ate it! How else do you think I came to hate it so?

 

P.S.: I have the same feelings for mac & cheese too, but for some reason still like potatoes (which are the ultimate cheep food... a 10lb bag of russets and a tub of veggie spread will feed you for a week or more).

[zornwil]

Re: Where else do you roll down?

 

Of course I ate it! How else do you think I came to hate it so?

 

P.S.: I have the same feelings for mac & cheese too, but for some reason still like potatoes (which are the ultimate cheep food... a 10lb bag of russets and a tub of veggie spread will feed you for a week or more).

Just checking! Sometimes people hate something without really being forced to hate it, if you know what I mean.

 

I still like mac and cheese, always love potatoes.

 

I can eat ramen's, but that's about it, I wouldn't choose to do so.