Rifts HERO

[tgrandjean]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

Oh, I don't have a problem with adding MDC to creatures like Dragons or big demons and gods and whatnot, but man-sized creatures shouldn't be MDC constructs.

 

And there should be no man-sized MDC weapons aside from a Big plasma gun or rocket launcher (which should do low MDC damage as well). There should be no MDC pilstols or vibroblades.

 

Adding MDC to a normal scale throws the whole scale balance off completely. Because now you have a normal armored human capable of taking down a 50 foot tall mecha provided he's got enough ammo and a few lucky shots.

 

Nein!

 

Heck, I don't even have a problem with man sized constructs having MDC--- as long as it was a low MDC total. Instead, you have Full Conversion borgs walking around with somewhere around 300MDC + another 500MDC for Full Conversion armor--- just about as tough as a Glitterboy and often putting out more damage with an autofire MDC rifle.... balance my ass....

 

Of my two systems of choice, Hero solves the problem by simply having more DEF (and possibly more Body) for larger constructs, Mekton Z by the concept of scaling. I like scaling- it's elegant.

 

(D20 I think at least has the idea of hardness even though they propose oddles of Hit points.)

[tgrandjean]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

I'm looking into rebuying my Rifts books. When I do so' date=' I'm going to start a very extensive Rifts conversion. However, when I do so, I'm going to ignore many of the mechanics of Rifts, I think. Specifically the Mega Damage aspect of the game. A group of rebels with rocket launchers will be able to down a Glitter Boy if they're able to hide from his Boom Cannon long enough. Rifts is the only game I know where any character can [i']completely[/i] ignore another, and I think it's kind of ridiculous.

 

Trust me, ignore ALL the mechanics... Regard extra actions mostly as having a high Dex--- keep Spd 5-6 for the Crazy and Juicer respectively plus maybe some monsters. It'll keep things sane.

[Guest Dr. Dementos]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

Thanks for the tips.

I'll be promptly reading the linked thread.

 

This is what I love about this forum: getting perspective from other players.

 

I originally did think of the AVLD and Does BODY idea, but found it slightly... off, but with the Damage Reduction and limitation, I see the light now.

 

I'm still not exactly sure about package deals or concepts.

 

I've also thought about trying to figure out how many points certain classes would cost.

 

I am also still not sure about the Heroic/Superheroic scale I should take.

I vaguely recall a thread about Superheroic games with Equipment rules.

 

The Palladium system was the first RPG I knew, but when I found the numerous flaws myself, that was the beginning of discovering HERO.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

Trust me' date=' ignore ALL the mechanics... Regard extra actions mostly as having a high Dex--- keep Spd 5-6 for the Crazy and Juicer respectively plus maybe some monsters. It'll keep things sane.[/quote']

 

Yeah. If you are trying to keep the game to at least a semi-Superheroic scale (halfway between Heroic and Superheroic) then Juciers should average around SPD6, Crazies around SPD5 and others (CyberKnight, Cyborgs, City Rat, Headhunter, PA troops) around SPD4, you should be okay.

 

Juicers should have max SPD of around 8. Crazies around SPD6. Vampires should average SPD5 (with Master vampires at SPD7) to give even the Crazies and Juiciers a challenge...

 

Coalition troops should average SPD3, because they're supposed to be cannon-fodder, but they are well-trained and battle-hardened soldiers (thus they get SPD3, instead of SPD2). Though, SAMAS PA troops should be around SPD4.

 

I'd put the Xiticic Warriors at SPD4 also, to give the PC's a challenge. They swarm but are fast also. And they should Coordinate their attacks a lot.

 

Here's a challenge: How would you represent Tattoo Magic and build something like an Atlantean Undead Slayer?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

Thanks for the tips.

 

 

I am also still not sure about the Heroic/Superheroic scale I should take.

I vaguely recall a thread about Superheroic games with Equipment rules.

 

I suggest going with either Powerful Heroic at 100/100

Or going with Very Powerful Heroic at 125/125.

 

Powerful Heroic is more balanced, but Very Powerful Heroic is better for simulating Crazies, Juicers and Atlantean Undead Slayers. Its a few too many points for Headhunters, City Rats and Coalition troops though. PA troops can spend the extra points on purchasing their Powered Armor, and magic/psionic characters can purchase powers. I guess the other character types can spend the extra points on Cybernetics (City Rat and Headhunter) or Contacts, Perks and talents (Wilderness Scout and City Rat)

 

I suggest Heroic level because there is so much "gear" in RIFTS, it seems wrong to make characters pay points for it. Half the fun of RIFTS was finding a cache of high-tech weapons and using them on unsuspecting adversaries. Having to pay points for tech would ruin that feel.

 

Note that if you went with a 200 point scale, I wouldn't even have PA troops pay points for their Powered Armor...they'd have to aquire it from somewhere though, or start as part of someone's army and go from there.

[csyphrett]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

Here's a challenge: How would you represent Tattoo Magic and build something like an Atlantean Undead Slayer?

 

I am not an expert with the HERO system, but I think a multipower with restrainable, maybe OIF, must have tattooed image for power, and endurance battery would be the way to go.

CES

[casualplayer]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

To represent Mega-damage I would have a +2 advantage on EB and HA that ignores all non-resistant defenses. Oh, wait, that's Killing Attacks!

 

Don't allow unrestricted purchasing of resistant defenses higher than around 10/10 gross and make most weapons normal damage and you will have a good simile. Save higher def and killing damage for the MDC and mega damage weapons and it will work out fine.

 

I played in a HERO game that wasn't identified as Rifts HERO but that's what it was. I was a Borg named SHAMAN (combat medic, emphasis on the combat,) there was a psi-knight named Blue and a mage named Canus. I also played in another Rifts game a Borg named Buick Skylark, the Crazy in a Can! Good times.

[GaryB]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

Whoo hoo! Rifts players. Used to play it some time back. Was a play tester for Pantheons of the Megaverse (See credits for Gary Blauvelt). Used to work with Carlos at what was once basically a sweat shop of plus sized women's bathing suits. The picture wasn't pretty. All the Paladium writers are good folk, too bad thier system at the end of the day was way out of balance whack. Mostly you just played it for fun than mechanics. The Rifts universe has some GREAT background source material.

 

Megadamage...forgettaboutit!

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

Almost rebought Rifts main book today, but too expensive. Going to hunt it down later this week.

[GaryB]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

I'd give you mine, but after owning em for all these years they have become something of an amusing collection type of thing with some sentimental value (even though I'll probably never use them again).

[Greg]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

If you have a 1/2 Price Books nearby they always seem to have the Rifts book and a couple World Books. The main book is usually around $8. I found a bunch of World Books in clearance one day and bought 4 for $1 a piece. If you're an RPG collector fair warning that there's a "crack" factor in that every book usually has one really cool OCC and each book tries to one up the previous one on power factor. I'd definately check out Wormwood and Splicers though for alternate settings. Basically Rifts in alternate realities. I'm just starting on converting Splicers to HERO.

[Twilight]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

Then you have Coalition Wars which basically throws out anything and everything in the previous books about the Coalition being untested in true warfare, possessing no knowledge of magic and or psionics and any other piece of information that would actually hinder thier stated goal of having the Coalition win. It pretty much contradicts everything printed in previous books and at one point, it even contradicts information from a previous book in the series. The final book is an example of the worst gaming supplement known to man IMOHO.

[Greg]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

The final book is an example of the worst gaming supplement known to man IMOHO.

 

If this is in response to me, then let me reassure you that there are books that even I won't purchase as that's the most glowing review I've seen for that series. However, there are certain unnamed members of my group that have every single Rifts book published (minus a couple Rifters). I just have an unhealthy obsession with picking up new settings and spending money at Half Price Books.

[Twilight]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

If this is in response to me' date=' then let me reassure you that there are books that even I won't purchase as that's the most glowing review I've seen for that series. However, there are certain unnamed members of my group that have every single Rifts book published (minus a couple Rifters). I just have an unhealthy obsession with picking up new settings and spending money at Half Price Books.[/quote']

 

Not aimed at you. I just needed to get that off my chest, it's an old rant that tends to come back to the forefront everytime that RIFTS is mentioned. I mean I don't mind the badguys winning on occasion but really, setting everything up so that it's absolutely inevitable? Simply horrid. I mean how would you feel if you were in an adventure with your magical character and the GM told you "Sorry, all your magic stopping working?"

[Warp9]

???

 

In this discussion of converting Mega-Damage over to Hero System, I'm not sure I understand the basic motivation.

 

Is the need for some new rules for "Mega-Damage" based on the idea that the Hero system simply does not support ultra-high power levels?

 

Or is it based on the idea that the mechanics for handling high power levels ("mega" levels) are simply better in Rifts, and thus some sort of "mega-damage" mechanic needs to be imposed over Hero's normal methods for handling high power levels?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

I expect it's more of a high degree of loyalty to the original system.

[Greg]

Re: ???

 

In this discussion of converting Mega-Damage over to Hero System, I'm not sure I understand the basic motivation.

 

Is the need for some new rules for "Mega-Damage" based on the idea that the Hero system simply does not support ultra-high power levels?

 

Or is it based on the idea that the mechanics for handling high power levels ("mega" levels) are simply better in Rifts, and thus some sort of "mega-damage" mechanic needs to be imposed over Hero's normal methods for handling high power levels?

 

 

The basic concept behind Mega Damage for me is that:

1. it's a defining concept of Rifts (over the top)

2. mechanically, characters with MDC traits are essentially untouchable by SDC beings/items

 

I was running a bunch of numbers last night, remembering now why I did so poorly in math, and figured the easiest HERO representation for MDC was simply making armor hardened x2 and weapons AP x2. This made non-mega damage weapons basically worthless unless they just did tons of damage. At the same time I didn't have to add any new rules or anything though for flavor you could just call it a +1 advantage called MDC.

 

I did find one odd thing, Palladium characters are very physically weak compared to HERO characters. In Rifts, a normal human might max out around 22 strength and can lift 100kg whereas a HERO man around 20 can lift 400kg. There are lots of other things that aren't worth preserving like human/robotic/supernatural strength, but I did find because of HERO's geometric strength progression Rift heroes would generally top around 16 strength, robots start around 20 and supernatural start around 24 which is much more logical then having Rifts three different strength charts.

 

Anyways, sort of in response to the message above in my own conversion I want to transfer the overall power level while using all the superior HERO mechanics.

[Warp9]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

I expect it's more of a high degree of loyalty to the original system.

Yep. I guess converting to Hero is the very highest degree of "loyalty to the original system"

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

LOL...you know what I mean! When people try to convert some assed up mechanic just because the original game does it that way. Like making a whole bunch of chargen tables for Traveller Hero instead of just taking whatever skills you damn well please....

[Warp9]

Re: ???

 

I did find one odd thing, Palladium characters are very physically weak compared to HERO characters. In Rifts, a normal human might max out around 22 strength and can lift 100kg whereas a HERO man around 20 can lift 400kg. There are lots of other things that aren't worth preserving like human/robotic/supernatural strength, but I did find because of HERO's geometric strength progression Rift heroes would generally top around 16 strength, robots start around 20 and supernatural start around 24 which is much more logical then having Rifts three different strength charts.

We are in agreement that Hero's exponential progression (using a single chart) is superior and covers more range than Rifts' 3 different strength charts.

 

I would extend that to Hero's exponential progression of damage. If you consider the way firearms damage works in Hero, you'll see that every +1 DC = 2 X Kinetic Energy.

 

+ 7 DCs = 128 X Kinetic Energy

 

+10 DCs = 1024 X Kinetic Energy

 

+20 DCs = 1 million X Kinetic Energy

 

+30 DCs = 1 billion X Kinetic Energy

 

200 BODY in Hero is enough to totally destroy the Earth. (I believe that the planet is rated at 86 BODY, which is only logical given the progression layed out in the book. And if you do more than double the BODY of an object, you can totally destroy it).

 

My point would be that Hero already handles far greater power levels than Rifts without the need to resort to some kind of special damage.

 

 

 

 

2. mechanically, characters with MDC traits are essentially untouchable by SDC beings/items

Using the standard Hero rules, if I am in a Tank and you only have a pistol, I am essentially "untouchable" by your attack.

 

 

 

 

I was running a bunch of numbers last night, remembering now why I did so poorly in math, and figured the easiest HERO representation for MDC was simply making armor hardened x2 and weapons AP x2. This made non-mega damage weapons basically worthless unless they just did tons of damage.

I'm not sure that will do what you want it to. "Hardened" doesn't do anything at all against a standard attack. The only thing "Hardened" does is to protect you against the effects of an advantage like AP.

[Warp9]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

LOL...you know what I mean! When people try to convert some assed up mechanic just because the original game does it that way. Like making a whole bunch of chargen tables for Traveller Hero instead of just taking whatever skills you damn well please....

Understood

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

I've always had issues with Palladium system... Its an excellent example of a entire company dedicated to an ancient and inherently flawed system. Its a shame, as some of the writing is quite creative. I still have my original paperback comic book sized Mechanoid Invasion books, and used a minorly modified version of the Mechanoids as the Big Bad back in my original Star hero campaign. That campaign started with us using Hero during the Champions 2/Espionage era, so we had to do a fair bit of fussing with the system to make things work out, and we ran into similar problems to the MDC concept. Basically, the situation is this... Starship and SciFi Tech level heavy weapons HAVE to pack a wallop. The hazards of space travel mean that even an "unarmored" starship needs to be fairly massively built. An impact with a fist sized nickle-iron metorite at relativistic speeds is WAY nastier than most of the Hero system attacks. After much messing aboput to see if multipliers were appropriate, we went with the path of least resistance, adapted to include rules that hadn't existed when we started the campaign, and wound up with Starships and most spaceborne constructs and any heavy surface craft or emplaced positions designed to toe off with them including, as part of the build, "Frame reinforcement" Damage Reduction (with limited effect vs some SFX), "Surface Hardening" (Hardened X2 on defences), Minimum DEF for various applications, and generally high defences, not to mention things like deflector sheilds (Usually Missile deflection linked with forcefeild). Made Hard targe ts very hard. And made Heavy weapons and Shipboard/emplaced weapons LETHAL. Wouldn't work so hot in a Rifts game where folk are paying points for inborn abilities. A shoulder fired 3cm Powergun (ala Hammers Slammers) packed an 8D6 RKA, Double AP, with Scour (A custom advantage we worked up... for +1/2, it removes Def from the target equal to the Normal body rolled on the dice, stopped by hardened defences, "recovered" with maintainace and repair)

A shipboard Particle beam cannon might very well be a 16d6 RKA AP, Penetrating, Scour, Continous . Constructs were built with modified Base construction rule, rather than vehicle rules, so we could vary DEF and body by hex, and assess damage the same way. this required a rough map of starships, but with a little time (and a lot of classic Traveller materials) it wasn't much of an issue, and ended up with very dramatic space combat. Also very lethal. Its a problem with doing anything of the sort even vaguely realisticly. Certainly promoted Fear and Loathing In Space. Anything less than full MI style Power armor was TOAST against an attack. Characters surrendered. Often. Or died. Also often. With Regen Tank technology and strong personal defences (and a modicum of GM mercy) most characters didn't get fragged out of hand unless they did something dumb, but even so....its just hard to mix that level of offence with standard heroic level and have anything resembling game balance. For my 2 cents, I'd say any attempt to recreate the MDC aspect fo Rifts is probably doomed to fail. Unless you really like playing games where you have a 150 point hero playing in the same party as an 800 point Glitterboy. Hell...the one time someone tried to convince me to make a rifts character (never played) my character could do some sort of unarmed Ki enchance martial arts attack that did 1d4 MDC. Which is just barely above useless against MDC constructs... and would flatten SDC houses and reduced unarmored soft targets to a fine mist. Nope. doesn't work for me.

[Warp9]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

A shipboard Particle beam cannon might very well be a 16d6 RKA AP, Penetrating, Scour, Continous .

 

How did you come up with the 16d6 RKA figure?

 

Using the KE from the firearm progression would give an attack of 16d6 RKA (or 48 DCs) a value of:

 

6,000,000,000,000,000 Joules

 

Or

 

6,000 TeraJoules

 

That sounds pretty high to me (at that is just the rating on a 16d6 RKA without any fancy advantages).

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

Well... It stems from game play effect rather that a study of Joules (as I'd never done conversions to Joules for Hero...that was always reserved for Morrow Project and the various Tri Tac games that more or less required it) but if you want to work things out scientifically go for it.

As a baseline starting point assume any ship operating in real space (as opposed to some form of warp or hyperdrive) will be operating at say, approximately .95 Light speed (as an average cruising speed). Then figure out how many joules an impact with a, say, 1 kilo meteorite would generate. Even assuming Deflector screens defined as Missle deflection are the default defence against such things, you still have to account for the failure rate occuring often enought for a standard hull to be able to sustain such impacts. That would need to be the resistance level of your basic run of the mill civilian starship. Then determine what levels of hull armoring are considered acceptable and legal for civilian use, determine power levels for civilian craft operating within regulated space, and what levels are acceptable for craft who go back and forth outside of regulated space. Then determine what power level military grade weaponry should be, figuring that they should be at least somewhat nastier than the civilian equivilents.

In our case, it wasn't just pulled out of my butt, there was a logical progression through a wide variety of common weapon systems, including various sizes for each system. The 16D6 version was one of the larger weapons that didn't require a spinal mounting. A lot of it was worked out systemically.... as in, given these defences, how much damage do I want this system to inflict on this class of target.

[Warp9]

Re: Rifts HERO

 

As a baseline starting point assume any ship operating in real space (as opposed to some form of warp or hyperdrive) will be operating at say, approximately .95 Light speed (as an average cruising speed). Then figure out how many joules an impact with a, say, 1 kilo meteorite would generate. Even assuming Deflector screens defined as Missle deflection are the default defence against such things, you still have to account for the failure rate occuring often enought for a standard hull to be able to sustain such impacts. That would need to be the resistance level of your basic run of the mill civilian starship.

 

Going with those assumptions, 16d6 RKA is not too far off.

 

A 1 KG Rock travelling at the speed of light (2.99 X 10 to the 8th meters per sec) Power gives a KE of

 

 

0.5 X 9 X 10^16 Joules

 

added on edit: the formula for KE is 1/2 Mass X Velocity^2

and for simplicity's sake, I'm assuming that the speed of light squared is 9 X 10^16 meters per second

 

or

 

45,000 tera Joules.

 

which would be roughly 17d6 RKA in Hero terms (based on the firearms progression)

 

(I figured that pretty fast--but I think that it is all right)