nexus Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Currently, Dark Champions seems to be revamped (or defined, I guess might be the proper word) as the "action movie style" for Hero which is good enough, except I'm more a fan of Dark Champions as just that, low level supers dealing with more "realistic" but occasionally powered crime such as Daredevil, early Spiderman, Punisher, occasionally Batman without even the "kiddifying" that is done for animated series versions of these characters. Fourth Edition DC seemed to have more information about that style of play while Fifth almost ignores it favor of modern day action. Is there going to be any support for street level supers in upcoming products for Dark Champions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted February 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions I guess what I'm saying is I got the impression that Street Level supers just didn't get as much respect in this edition of Dark Champions. Its almost been renamed "Dark Champions:The Animated Series" which implies, at least subtly that is only for children and must be simplistic. It didn't get the props the other genres did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadmaster Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions Now this is interesting, I found it stayed too close to the street supers it was in 4th ed and didn't include as much "action Hero" as I had hoped and expected. I don't know what the deal is with The Animated Series stuff, I don't see the relation to either form of Dark Champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions Actually, nexus, your remarks are a little ironic, because from its description it sounds as though the upcoming subgenre book, Dark Champions: The Animated Series deals with just the sort of game you're describing. Here is the website promotional info for it, and here is where Steve Long and DC:TAS author Allen Thomas describe the focus of the book and solicit input on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citizen Keen Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions Nexus - sounds like you got your wish. It's even set in Hudson City, so you can use Hudson City, and when the characters hone their powers to the point where they're real supers, you can take the fight to Millenium City. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted March 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions I will indeed check out Dark Champions: The animated series, but this part of my issue. If I can try to explain in a less ranting manner. The subtitle "Animated series", and some of the writting and comments in Dark Champions, implies that "vigilante" series that include characters with minor powers have to be somehow more childish and "comic book" that "traditional" Dark Champions. I think (and enjoy) characte in such a setting can have some minor abilites and be quite gritty and violent. Powers don't automatically create a four color morality or less lethal envionrment. It doesn't have to be a "Cartoon". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions Personally, from what I've read, DC:TAS reminds me of the Marvel Knights comics, as well as Batman and probably Nightwing ... I think TAS seems to be a way to connect it to the superhero genre, even if it is a bit darker or less "super" than 4-color games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted March 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions I really hope so and I will give the book a chance, but the impression I got from Dark Champions core worried me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions I will indeed check out Dark Champions: The animated series' date=' but this part of my issue. If I can try to explain in a less ranting manner. The subtitle "Animated series", and some of the writting and comments in Dark Champions, implies that "vigilante" series that include characters with minor powers have to be somehow more childish and "comic book" that "traditional" Dark Champions. I think (and enjoy) characte in such a setting can have some minor abilites and be quite gritty and violent. Powers don't automatically create a four color morality or less lethal envionrment. It doesn't have to be a "Cartoon".[/quote'] No disrespect intended, nexus, but I get the impression from your remarks that you're not too familiar with the original Batman: The Animated Series, which from Steve Long's remarks is the primary inspiration for the title of this book. That series was anything but childish and four-color. The environment was very dark and gritty, the violence often pronounced although rarely lethal (on-camera, that is), the plots frequently clever and involved, and the characters complex, conflicted and often appropriately twisted. IMHO the style of that show fit well with all but the darkest Batman comics stories, as well as most Daredevil, Moon Knight and the like. (And the feature length Mask of the Phantasm based on that series, which was released in movie theaters several years ago, even more so.) If DC: TAS captures that feel, I don't think you'll be disappointed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted March 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions No disrespect intended' date=' nexus, but I get the impression from your remarks that you're not too familiar with the original [i']Batman: The Animated Series[/i], which from Steve Long's remarks is the primary inspiration for the title of this book. That series was anything but childish and four-color. The environment was very dark and gritty, the violence often pronounced although rarely lethal (on-camera, that is), the plots frequently clever and involved, and the characters complex, conflicted and often appropriately twisted. IMHO the style of that show fit well with all but the darkest Batman comics stories, as well as most Daredevil, Moon Knight and the like. (And the feature length Mask of the Phantasm based on that series, which was released in movie theaters several years ago, even more so.) If DC: TAS captures that feel, I don't think you'll be disappointed. I've very familiar with it. I've been a fan for a long time. But that is not the impression I got from the remarks in Dark Champions. I mean that games with powers and superhuman abilites can be just as dark and vigilante as any game with nothing but gun toting hardcases. Look at some of the fourth edition material with character like Germ. Powered Dark Champions doesn't have to be suitable for children or have a PG 13 rating. Maybe I am flying off the handle, but those implied comments just rubbed me the wrong since I have run campaigns of "Dark Champions" which are quite dark, morally gray, etc and have had superhuman abilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadmaster Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions No disrespect intended' date=' nexus, but I get the impression from your remarks that you're not too familiar with the original [i']Batman: The Animated Series[/i], which from Steve Long's remarks is the primary inspiration for the title of this book. That series was anything but childish and four-color. If DC: TAS captures that feel, I don't think you'll be disappointed. Well if that is true I just might get it, I really liked that Batman series. I probably won't use it but I'm more likely to play in a game like that than a standard Champions game. I was also under the impression the TAS was going to be "light hearted" DC. BTW there is now a 4 disc DVD set of Batman TAS, it says Volume 1 so I assume a 2nd set is in the works. I also liked the fact that the series used the voice of Batman from the sillys 60's Batman series (his name escapes me at the moment), for a character in one of the episodes (Grey Ghost?) it is the only "re-make" I can think of that gave some credit to the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions Batman from the sillys 60's Batman series (his name escapes me at the moment) Adam West. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Publius Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions BTW there is now a 4 disc DVD set of Batman TAS' date=' it says Volume 1 so I assume a 2nd set is in the works. [/quote']Volume 2 is out already and gracing my shelves. I picked it up with Superman TAS and I am waiting Batman Beyond and Justice League (in the form of entire sets, I will not be buying those already out peicemeal and spending way more on them). All of these series did an excellent job with characterization and plot complexity. Thus far I have only caught one of "The Batman" on WB. It looks okay, but I would not want to make a determination based on only one episode. BTW, anyone caught "Gotham Girls"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions The Batman is pretty good ... kind of dark in some ways and does a great job of reinvisioning the core characters ... mind you it's not B:TAS, but it's still pretty damn good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Cermak Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions I guess what I'm saying is I got the impression that Street Level supers just didn't get as much respect in this edition of Dark Champions. Its almost been renamed "Dark Champions:The Animated Series" which implies' date=' at least subtly that is only for children and must be simplistic. It didn't get the props the other genres did.[/quote'] There are four different flavors of "street" supers/crimefighters presented in Dark Champions: Vigilante Crimefighting, DC: TAS, Iron Age Champions, and Street-Level Champions. You seem to be focusing on the one that is least like what you want and then complaining that you're not getting what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted March 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions There are four different flavors of "street" supers/crimefighters presented in Dark Champions: Vigilante Crimefighting' date=' DC: TAS, Iron Age Champions, and Street-Level Champions. You seem to be focusing on the one that is least like what you want and then complaining that you're not getting what you want.[/quote'] Well, that's not what I meant. "Iron Age Champions" is something different all together IMO, its not street level at all. Its mentioned in Dark Champions I would imagine because of its darker tone. Street Level Champions got the same general treatment as "Dark Champions: The animated series" that I saw some mention, but it was treated with a slightly condescending edge when it was mentioned. It doesn't change my concern that "Street Level Champions" isn't going to get much, if any real support. I use "The animated series" subtitle for one of the genres as the most visible example of the change in tone in refering to dark, street level games that include powers. But I'll check out the DC:TAS book when it comes out and see if it does provide a more balanced (IMO) outlook. And if it doesn't, I'll just be disappointed, not like I'll toss my Champions and DC collection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Cermak Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions Street Level Champions got the same general treatment as "Dark Champions: The animated series" that I saw some mention' date=' but it was treated with a slightly condescending edge when it was mentioned.[/quote'] No, it wasn't. There's nothing condescending about taking a genre that's based on comic-books or a cartoon series and acknowledging that it is like a comic book or a cartoon series. You're projecting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuk Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions The Batman is pretty good ... kind of dark in some ways and does a great job of reinvisioning the core characters ... mind you it's not B:TAS' date=' but it's still pretty damn good [/quote'] Best thing about it is the theme song, by The Edge. EDIT: The show's good too, but the theme song is really good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted March 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions No, it wasn't. There's nothing condescending about taking a genre that's based on comic-books or a cartoon series and acknowledging that it is like a comic book or a cartoon series. You're projecting. That's your opinion and being such there's pretty much no way to argue with it, so I'll let it drop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Cermak Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions That's your opinion and being such there's pretty much no way to argue with it' date=' so I'll let it drop.[/quote'] You could quote an example of a condescending sentence from the text in question. I can't find one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgrandjean Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions Not to totally derail the thread, I just wanted to make a few comments on The Batman. First, great theme song. Second, interesting animation style. Semianime-ish, exaggerated features, edgey feel. It's not for everyone, but I do like it. TAS did a better job as far a feel, but this is a younger, edgier Bats; one that doesn't have a handle on everything and is trying to figure this whole hero thing out. Third, the characters are interesting. Picture the usual roster viewed through a funhouse mirror. Alfred is ex-SAS. The Penguin as a martial artist (?). Catwomen as moreso but now add a slice of gadgeteer. Bane is.... Bane. The only real flaw that I see in the series is that it sometimes seems to have fallen into a rut. Most episodes tend to run; The villain commits a crime, Bats has used his detective skills (or police scanner, take your pick) to locate the villain, a fight insues. Bats gets his butt kicked (stalemate at best), goes back to the lab, has some angst combined with a demonstration of tech skill, then proceeds to track down the villain and kick their teeth in. Not bad as a rule, but episode after episode? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted March 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions I'll have to check this show out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Goradin Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions I liked 4 E dark champions better than 5E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawknight Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions I too liked 4th better than 5th, but Hudson City got way fleshed out and that was a great thing. No matter what edition, there is usable stuff from both to combine and form Voltron, err the best game possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Re: Support for Low Level Supers style Dark Champions Kind of a pointless thread resurrection...it was 7 years dead after all. That out of the way, they're two different products. "DC" for 5th Edition is really Action HERO or Modern HERO. The title Dark Champion was recycled for marketing purposes, and like all such marketing driven decisions it made little sense and just created false expectations. There are people that bough DC expecting an updated version of 4e's DC, and were perhaps disappointed. There are people who would really enjoy the product for running Action HERO type games who never looked at the product because it's branded as a Champions product. Oh well, water under the bridge at this point. Personally, I think 5th Edition Dark Champions is a great product, and the Hudson City source book is one of the best city supplements I've ever seen for any game. Also, my own MetaCyber setting is proof that you can mix street and superhuman using the material...here's the page where I mine the supplement for the setting, including character re-imaginings for LIBRA: Meta Cyber - Dark Champions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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