Horror Hero rant

[Toadmaster]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

There are many movies that give better examples than slasher flicks, I completely forgot about Tremors (its one of my favorites) and while it is funny I wouldn't really call it comedy (well ok maybe 2 and 3), it did a good job of showing two shmo's in an unusual situation and showed that even a couple of guys who were not all that intelligent could come up with a plan to defeat the monsters.

 

Another one I liked was Phantasm 2, here were a couple of guys who figured if the bad guys were going to get them eventually they might as well take the fight to the bad guys.

 

In the Fog the monsters seemed to be unstoppable but in the end it was simply a matter of making things right.

 

Similarly in many of Lovecraft's stories the solution was not usually based on fighting it out but finding the means to make the stars "not" right.

 

Them! is another great movie, in my opinion far superior to the many giant mutant radioactive critter flicks that followed.

 

Big trouble in little China, The Thing (both of them), many X-files, Kolshak the Night Stalker, all the Alien movies (the first one still gives me the creeps), even Nightmare on Elm Street could work. Dead and burried would be great for a game with an interesting twist. Finally I really liked From Dusk till dawn the scene where George Clooney is arguing with the other survivors about whether or not vampires exist is great.

 

Horror gaming seems to get stereotyped almost as much as the movies.

[Basil]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

As many jokes as were in it, I think Tremors (the first one, the only one) did a good job with making their protagonists relatively intelligent Everymen. Rednecks, yes, but not *stupid* rednecks.

 

I loved that movie just because the FIRST TIME something scary happened, they tried to leave town. None of this "let's stay here while the walls bleed" crap.

GMTA.

 

That's the movie I was thinking of using as an example of the protaganists showing intelligence, cunning, and inventiveness in fighting the monster.

[Trencher]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

Here is a thread about the Chuttuls san drain and stuff

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26701

[nexus]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

GMTA.

 

I've seen the above twice now. What does it mean?

[Lupus]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

I've seen the above twice now. What does it mean?

Great Minds Think Alike?

[Basil]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

I've seen the above twice now. What does it mean?

Great Minds Think Alike?

 

Pre-zactly!

[sinanju]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

Oh, so do I. The "stinking" was directed only at WOD, which I played in and ran much too much for my needs (angsty pseudo-horror is not my thing), while not playing and running HERO. Much against my will.

 

Never again.

.

 

I'm with you there. I've run several "World of Darkness"-esque campaigns, but I took the parts I liked (vampires, werewolves, mages--especially mages) and ditched the angst. I ran more basic fantasy/action games with the WOD trappings. I had fun. I think my players had fun.

 

As for horror--for all that we're all confessed rules lawyers and powergamers, we're also role players. When we play horror, the PCs react appropriately (fear, horror and paranoia). Even if they manage to kill the monster, their reaction tends to be "Oh my god! We just killed a vampire! An honest-to-god bloodsucking vampire! Oh ****!" followed by a high-speed flight to the nearest church for some serious soul searching and thought (if vampires exist, then what _else_ are we wrong about?).

[Just Joe]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

Interesting thread. There's so much I'd like to say, but I'll try not to ramble on. My apologies for duplications of what others have already said.

 

I am only a borderline horror fan, but much of my GMing has hovered at the borders of horror. From that perspective, a few observations:

 

1. I'm not convinced that good horror necessarily requires that the protagonist(s) be anywhere near powerless. When Alan Moore wrote Swamp Thing (in the 80's?), he did a superb job with a protagonist who was quite powerful (though there were less powerful victims to be sure). Nevertheless, an RPG horror campaign is probably best with comparitively low-powered characters.

 

2. Other games (such as many CoC games) can go to far the other way. If PC's are doomed from the start, it's hard to care about them, and their choices may be too limited or too irrelevent for anything interesting to happen. Other problems with some CoC games: Lovecraft's strange, mysterious, and disturbing creatures can come to seem commonplace to gamers, and things can become too unpredictable. I prefer to be inspired by Lovecraft's work rather than to recapitulate it. I especially dislike players knowing exactly what they're up against. Finally, sanity rules can help, but they can also define things a bit too neatly.

 

3. I would be hard pressed to define the horror genre, or to name an essential feature. To horrify most people is easy, at least if one is willing to be utterly distasteful. Interesting horror is harder, as is horror which is not entirely revolting. Fear has a role to play, but I'm not convinced it's essential. In any event, I don't believe in taking genre distinctions or conventions too seriously. I try to come up with an interesting idea and to hell with categorizing it.

 

Hmmm . . . I'm not sure I succeeded in avoiding rambling . . . and I probably came across as confrontational and/or preachy and/or condescending. Oh well, I guess that's not entirely inappropriate, given the title of the thread.

[Andrea]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

Hi,

very interesting thread expecially for me that I'm coming to Hero System after almost 15 years of Call of Cthulhu ( just to change a bit not to abandon it).

I think that Lovecraft literature is based on the "desperation" that men feel when they realize that there are bigger and deeper things than the one we see. Evil Gods and the general "malevolence" of the universe are central themes of his literature. HPL stated in Call of Cthulhu that the fact that we cannot understand the real fabric of reality is the thing that save us from insanity.

 

This is different from the "casual horror" approach of other Horror ( like the B-Movies or the various teenager horror) where the horror element is just an anomaly in a overall normal contest ( Destroyed the monster everything comes back to normality). In CoC even if the player win there's a sense of having lost their innocence and Sanity loss is just representative of the difficulty to regain a normal and safe view of the world.

So it's not much a problem of playing a RPG where you always lose ( it is not so, you just need to be veeeeery careful and sometimes admit that you are overpowered) the problem is playing a RPG where in the long terms wether humans wins or lose is not much of a concern....

Moreover you can mix true Mythos stories with more mundane threat ( Cultist menace or investigative eerie stories) so the PC have the feeling that they can do the difference at least in some level.

 

This is just my idea...what do you think ??

Ciao

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

Lovecraft's strange' date=' mysterious, and disturbing creatures can come to seem commonplace to gamers, and things can become too unpredictable. [/quote']

 

Good point. I think a really good CoC campaign would be about 60% cultists or non-mythos spooks (ghosts, werewolves, vampires, etc), with about 30% of adventures involving mythos beasts, but without the characters directly encountering them. The last 10% should have a scene that makes the characters want to say "Holy sh*t! There it is!".

 

I would be hard pressed to define the horror genre' date=' or to name an essential feature. To horrify most people is easy, at least if one is willing to be utterly distasteful. [i']Interesting[/i] horror is harder, as is horror which is not entirely revolting.

 

I read an essay once (I think it was in one of those big anthologies edited by Marvin Kaye) about the nature of horror stories. The author said that using the word "horror" to refer to literature is usually wrong, because "horror" refers to physical revulsion, whereas "terror" is fear on a more intellectual level. It's possible to be horrified at the sight of a once-human heap of steaming gore, but when you realize that the nice old landlady who's been so helpful in your investigation is the monster, that thrill is terror.

[Curufea]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

The alien gods and monsters of Lovecraft should be kept to a minimum. Partially because they should have a huge impact on the plot if they appear - but mostly because they are malign (either intentionally or not), and their appearance will destroy most of the characters.

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

Good point. I think a really good CoC campaign would be about 60% cultists or non-mythos spooks (ghosts' date=' werewolves, vampires, etc), with about 30% of adventures involving mythos beasts, but without the characters directly encountering them. The last 10% should have a scene that makes the characters want to say "Holy sh*t! There it is!".[/quote']I might quibble with your percentages, but the idea corresponds strongly with my own attitude towards CoC roleplaying. Typically, being in a Mythos inspired campaign means coming to grips with the idea that the universe is out to get you: The creatures that do not automatically want to kill you usually couldn't care less about your continued existence. This does not have to (and, in fact, should not) mean that PCs are doomed to live short lives and meet nasty ends, but rather they are encouraged to play smart. The reason that bookish heroes are favoured in such games is because learning is the key to success, both for players and for humanity in general. Direct confrontation with all but the weakest of Mythos beasts is a certain way to ensure a short lifespan. Studying, learning their weaknesses, ways to avoid or bypass them, or to send them away; those are the things that characters who want to live should be spending their off-time doing in a classic CoC game.

[GaryB]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

I read an essay once (I think it was in one of those big anthologies edited by Marvin Kaye) about the nature of horror stories. The author said that using the word "horror" to refer to literature is usually wrong' date=' because "horror" refers to physical revulsion, whereas "terror" is fear on a more intellectual level. It's possible to be horrified at the sight of a once-human heap of steaming gore, but when you realize that the nice old landlady who's been so helpful in your investigation is the monster, that thrill is terror.[/quote']

 

Yeah, but thats just nitpicking semantics for this day and age. At one point they may have meant two different things, now they are just synonimous to one another. I will say that the word 'horror' sounds less emphatic than the word 'terror', but 'horror' is easier to wrap the mind and mouth around. Thus they are referred to as 'Horror Stories' than 'Terror Stories'. Terror stories means something totally different these days really.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

Yeah' date=' but thats just nitpicking semantics for this day and age. At one point they may have meant two different things, now they are just synonimous to one another. I will say that the word 'horror' sounds less emphatic than the word 'terror', but 'horror' is easier to wrap the mind and mouth around. Thus they are referred to as 'Horror Stories' than 'Terror Stories'. Terror stories means something totally different these days really.[/quote']

 

Perhaps. I found it an interesting essay, though, and it was a good introduction into the difference between a good scary story, and one that was merely disgusting.

[austenandrews]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

I think mostly this boils down to the players and what they want out of a game. Some players are happy to have their characters freak out at the sight of anything freaky. Others want tough guy characters in tense situations who still freak out in really freaky situations ("Game over, man!"). Others want their characters to be fearless, yet are happy to admit defeat and run away when the spectral apparition or shambling zombie horde approaches. These types of players work for what I'd call a "true" horror game. They revel in the act of being scared.

 

There are other players, though, who would rather have a PC die fighting overwhelming odds than run away. And some reject the very notion of an unwinnable situation, and feel like the GM is picking on them if they're forced to retreat. These types are a poor fit for a horror game. Your best hope is to run "horror adventure" and let them figure out creative ways to launch wooden stakes at high speed.

 

But concerning the former types of players, I've many times seen such a group get genuinely scared in a game. The players, mind you, not just the characters. I don't think scaring the players is too high a goal to set. You won't necessarily scare them all, but sometimes it's just as much fun to watch one or two people freak out as it is to freak out yourself.

 

I've never boiled it down like this before, but I'd say the priority list for a horror GM is:

1. Scare players (sets a fun mood)

2. Scare characters (catches the good roleplayers)

3. Overwhelm the characters (tacticians won't get scared but they'll definitely react)

4. Creep out players (every player can let go enough for that)

[Xiawarr]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

Read the "Atrocity Archives" by Charles Stross - makes for a great setting for a Dark Champions, action-horror setting, complete with a very british agency (the Laundry). Fun and creepy - and the main character is an IT-guy cum field agent. A different take on the cthulhu mythos.

 

Penalty for over-use of the word "setting" in my original post.

[ThothAmon]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

I might quibble with your percentages' date=' but the idea corresponds strongly with my own attitude towards CoC roleplaying. Typically, being in a Mythos inspired campaign means coming to grips with the idea that the universe is out to get you: [/quote']

 

 

Odd. I see it as the reverse of that statement, as do many of the learned people who have studied HPLs literature. IIRC Lovecraft himself stated at least once that one of his key themes was that the universe was completely cold and uncaring towards humanity:joint:

 

Regards the original topic, most of the protagonists are not losers despite the fact that they do eventually succumb to death, madness et al.

 

The horror genre (and sub genres) are filled with protagonists who struggle valiantly against significant odds - isn't that a definition of heroic behaviour?

[KA.]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

Horror comes from within more than from without.

If I were going to try to run Horror, I would get together a group of players that I knew would be okay with it, and start basically any other genre.

Most likely Pulp or Modern, possibly Fantasy, or Supers.

I would start off with fairly normal adventures, but my primary goal would be to develop strong relationships between the characters and the NPC's.

I would also do my best to have the players/characters develop a strong sense of connection to the community.

Then, slowly, the horror would begin to creep in.

When you see a good horror movie, or read a good horror book, you are made to care about the characters and what happens to them before the horror starts.

If everyone knows that the genre is horror, they immediately think of the NPC's as disposable, so they never develop any real attachment to them.

For this reason, it is much more effective to introduce elements of horror into another type of campaign, than to have a 'horror' campaign.

 

KA.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

Myself, I really don't care for the "horror" genre...books, movies, gaming, whatever.

 

Oddly enough, two of the scenarios I've run that for which I've received the most compliments have been horror scenarios. (I ran them at the request of players who happen to like horror. I warned them in advance I didn't like horror, so I might well screw it up with respect to what they wanted/expected; if they still wanted to try it under those conditions, then so be it. They said "yes" and later told me [repeatedly] just how much fun they'd had.)

 

The first one I ran was a solo HERO game; yes, the PC (Wildfire) was part of a group, but the rest of the team were NPCs. For that one I based it on the "Horror World" chapter of Champions in 3-D but improvised and embellished freely with anything that I found the thought of to be ghoulish, repellant, or horrifyingly gross. Apparently it worked well.

 

The second one was for a group of 3 players based in San Diego -- a brick, a mentalist/TKer, and an energy projector (half-divine daughter of Apollo with a magical bow). It was a CoC-esque adventure that took place in a deep Pacific seabed science platform. Contact with the platform had been lost, and a Coast Guard helicopter sent to the platform's anchor point had not returned. The Coast Guard was sending a cutter this time, and asked the hero team to come along.

 

I started giving them creepy stuff before they got to the platform...like a storm coming up out of nowhere, and then every electrical device on the ship failing for no reason. Once they finally reached the platform, they and the couple of civilian scientist/technicians who'd been sent out with them found it apparently deserted, though there was lots of evidence of strange goings-on. So at first it was moody creepiness...but when the civilian scientists started getting killed in grusome ways...

 

Eventually they confronted the thing...out on the sea bed, while wearing hardsuits...and managed to lock it back in its prison, putting back in place the ancient stones the science platform's people had unwittingly removed in their explorations.

 

By the time all was said and done, only one of the civilians was left alive, and she was in a catatonic state; two of the heroes we're much better off, and the third was pretty rocky, mentally. To the heroes it meant months of therapy and nightmares, as well as a feeling of "we won...but at what price?" (the civilian deaths). For the players...they couldn't stop telling me how much they'd enjoyed it...

[Southern Cross]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

Which is a compliment to your GM'ing skills.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

Which is a complement to your GM'ing skills.

I guess. The main problem I had trying to run those scenarios was that -- since I don't like the genre myself -- I don't have a feel for the genre and I was really flying blind. During most of the sessions I had no idea if what I was doing was "right" or not, if it was "working" or not. Mainly that was because the players weren't saying much, and when they were talking, it was often in a near-whisper. I didn't (and still don't) know how to properly guage player reaction as feedback in that type of genre.

 

It felt a lot like trying to walk a tightrope without a net.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

Well,in a horror scenario,that's a sign that the players are really scared,which is what you want.Scared people don't make much noise,or the monsters will get them.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

Well' date='in a horror scenario,that's a sign that the players are really scared,which is what you want.Scared people don't make much noise,or the monsters will get them.[/quote']Y'know, that never occured to me? At the time all I was thinking was "Sheesh, they're hard to read tonight...am I doing good or bad?"

[Southern Cross]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

Well,as you yourself have said,as you aren't a fan of the horror genre that isn't suprising.

[Curufea]

Re: Horror Hero rant

 

Very good horror plot resource :-

 

Tales of Terror

http://www.flar.demon.co.uk/terror/welcome.htm

 

I was just going through my old bookmarks and thought it should be mentioned