Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

[MitchellS]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

I think the main issue here is using comics as a guideline for XP spends.

 

Anyone who reads comics and has for some time can cite numerous examples of characters who have changed dramatically or not so dramatically over the years at the whim of the writers. For a while there in the old days, mainly with the X-men, there was a tendency to show a progression of power (Which makes sense, they were at a school designed to teach them about using their powers after all) but that has fallen prey to the whim of the writer as well. Storm has had her powers removed entirely and was "rewritten" as a bad to the bone streetfighting leader type, then she got back her powers. Maybe this was her radiation accident. But that's not really the issue here.

 

Example, player 1 is the martial artist in a CU style game. He doesn't know a lost art, he knows Karate. Over time he increases his physicals to near superhuman (mid to high 20's), increases his dc's with Karate to +4 and adds a bunch of little powers that suppliment his abilities (An armored costume, some flash defense lenses and ear caps, a communicator). He goes from being Dex 26, Str 15, karate +2 dc and having a max hit of 9d6 to being Dex 30, Str 25, and Karate +4dc with a max hit of 13d6. He also has a lot of ancilliary powers that he never had and a bunch of new skills. Is this a problem? Of course not. It's a reasonable progression, he is still inside of the "defined as human" levels of the CU, and while he has gained new abilities, none of them are out of line. If he wants to get some of the mystical karate abilities from UMA, also not an issue, they make sense for the character as defined. The above "minimum" spend I detailed requires at least 30 XP for just the stats and none of the other mentioned items. With everything I mentioned, I'd estimate it at anywhere from 65-100 xp.

 

There is still room to increase this guy A LOT through his concept and be well within the general campaign guidelines. The issue here is not the structure, the genre or the rules. It's the players. I have no hard fast rules for XP spends at all. I have an understanding with my PC's that they should run everything past me so I can account for it in game. If the above martial artist took those phantom 100 points and said "I'm dumping 100 points into strength" I'd ask him how that fits in any way, shape or form with his concept, then I'd point out that a lucky shot by a thug with a handgun still could take him out.

 

To me, it's about the relationship between the PC's and the GM. If you guys can talk through stuff, this should eliminate the need for hard fast rules about XP spends. YMMV of course, but in that case, it might be time for a chat with your players.

Excellent post! I agree with you completely.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

Yes, but now you're dealing with divergence. I'm just using examples from mainline comic books. Anime goes in many different directions.

 

Also keep in mind that I'm not saying I don't allow power increases with characters but power levels will never double within my games. If you start with 12d6 you will never reach 24d6. Why? Because in the genre I'm attempting to emulate Hawkeye does not regularly fire TAC-Nuke arrows and Thor can't shatter the earth with one blow from Mjolnir to show where all of their experience went over the last 30 years.

Which is a perfectly valid way to run a campaign--I'm just saying that it may not be appropriate for all supers genre simulation, or for all player groups. One unintended consequence of hard caps is that if the campaign runs long enough, everyone winds up with a Harbinger of Justice style writeup--since they hit the max after a hundred or two hundred xp, they have no choice but to invest points in other stuff, broadening and deepening their other capabilities while pushing up against the limits of their original concept.

It can be just as difficult to deal with the PC who now has every useful skill on a 17- as it would be to deal with the PC who has five skills but can juggle 747s.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

I take it since you never answered the original question that you have no caps in your game? Kung Fu Yu can go from 26 dex 6 speed 10d6 offensive strike to 39 dex' date=' 8 speed, 24d6 strike as long as the player wants it?[/quote']

 

Hard and fast caps that apply to everyone? No, not really. Expectations of an average, and expectations that someone exceptional in one area will be deficient in another, for sure. The characters need to balance against one another. The environment can then balance to them.

 

To see that martial artist hit that level would be pretty unlikely as he's now out of the game parameters. But then, the other characters must logicaly have experienced similar growth in power over the same time period. That's 102 points spent, and if we assume every other character has obtained the same xp, then the other characters have presumably risen to similar standards.

 

I've never had an arm's race problem with my players, and I would certainly take a player aside and "suggest" that there are places to spend xp other than adding damage classes and OCV. However, to simply state "no one can increase more than 20 points" seems, if not more, at least equally unreasonable. "Well, Iceman started with an 8d6 snowball attack, so he can only go up to 12d6. Cyclops started with 14d6, so he can go up to 18d6". What's that, Cyke, you max'ed out so now you want to buy extra PD Armor?

 

I generally expect players to identify weaknesses in their character and use xp to deal with it, within character concept. And I generally find setting a hard and fast maximum soon makes that the minimum.

[MitchellS]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

However' date=' to simply state "no one can increase more than 20 points" seems, if not more, at least equally unreasonable. "Well, Iceman started with an 8d6 snowball attack, so he can only go up to 12d6. Cyclops started with 14d6, so he can go up to 18d6". What's that, Cyke, you max'ed out so now you want to buy extra PD Armor?[/quote']

You didn't read very well. I didn't say powers were only allowed a 20 point increase, I said Primary Characteristics were only allowed a 20 point increase.

[Mike W]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

First, I would like to point out that I stated that characters CANNOT buy stats that don't fit their concepts, no matter how many points they have. BUT, I do not put any particular limit on how much it can be bought up - as long as it fits into the character conecpts. A brick in my campaign will almost never see a 25 DEX because it doesn't fit a brick to have those kinds of reflexes(the occasional Superman type might be a rare exception). But if he wants to buy his CON from 28 to 40 fine. It still fits the character(though I generally cap CON at 40).

 

Second, many of those characters have actually gotten FAR more powerful, not just learned power stunts. At one point,it was a major effort for Jean Grey to use her TK to lower her teammates a couple hundred feet from a low flying plane. Now she could lower the whole plane. Iron Man kept refining the armor and many of those called for MAJOR changes. Two armor changes was enough to really power him up. The 1970 Red and Gold Iron Man had about a 30-35 STR, - he could lift a couple tons, but that was it by the time the Silver armor came in the mid 80s it was a 50 STR(about 10 tons), and by the mid 1990s he was pushing a 65 STR if not more by most campaign standards, since he was clearly a front line brick by that time and tossing around 50+ tons(and yes, I realize that there were more than two versions of the armor in the interim, but I'm not going to detail all eight or so armors he used during this time, suffice it to say that any two upgrades produced a noticeable difference in power levels, even in powers like STR, flight, DEF and repulsors that were in each suit).

 

I'm not arguing that there are certain levels that characters shouldn't be allowed to go past. But I'm not willing to arbitrarily tell the power armor guy that he can only buy his STR to 50 because he only had the points to start at 30. If he wants 60 STR he can have it. Bricks would get a lot of leeway on this too. The rest, 20 active points is probably enough to cover what people would want to buy in terms of base characteristics. For figured, I would again see a lot of possibilities as say, the body manipulator learns how to hold onto powers and keep a lot more PD, ED or REC than he could to start. And certain characters have to skimp on a REC or STUN or things like that at the start because they have expensive concepts so again, while I would have limits on how high the character concept could go, I would base them on overall balance issues and not on where the character's stat started.

[fbdaury]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

Mike, the perfect character type to disprove your theory is the high-end healer: you don't really care if they can fight their way out of a wet paper bag as long as they can keep putting you back together when you get messed up fighting the "Super Mutated Freak of the Week" tm.

[Mike W]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

Nope, had one of those in a campaign before. REAL handy. But if he's gonna be on the field, he still has to take care of himself. A lot of fights, it's tough to spare a bodyguard and if the healer goes down, he's no use to anyone. If he can't fight, leave him at the base and we'll either take the casualties to him or call him in after fight. In either case, he makes a good support NPC but not much of a PC.

[fbdaury]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

"We're sorry ReIncarnator, while your power to heal us back to full health from just this side of death's door is nice and all, we noticed you can't throw a punch to save your life. Instead of you, we've decided on Rampage Man- able to beat almost anyone to death with his barehands and looking for a new team because he killed three former teammates during a tantrum before he was thrown off the team and slapped with a restraining order."-- How genre does that seem to you?

[CourtFool]

Caps are bad, mkay?

 

I guess it is pregen time.

[Mike W]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

Fbdaury - no reductio ad absurdum please. I can make ANY argument seem foolish if I take a worst case scenario approach. The scenario you just put forth is completely different from anything I have argued.

 

The problem, as I stated it, is that healer types are very useful, but he doesn't make a very good PC if he needs a bodyguard. The guy doesn't have to be a buttkicker(ala Rampage Man), but if you've got a four or five man team, everyone has to be able to protect himself enough that the other players don't have to look over their shoulders all the time. If you think about genre, how many strictly healer characters are there in comics anyway. Very few that I can think of - and none of them normally sees much combat time. They are useful people to have around, but if you can't hold your own on the field, the rest of the team tends to get their butts kicked because they are too busy protecting you. I've seen it happen. Healer characters are fine as long as they can protect themselves.

[MitchellS]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

At one point' date='it was a major effort for Jean Grey to use her TK to lower her teammates a couple hundred feet from a low flying plane.[/quote']

#1, what you are describing is a power not a primary characteristic. #2, Jean, and all the original X-men, falls into my teen champions category from above.

 

Now she could lower the whole plane. Iron Man kept refining the armor and many of those called for MAJOR changes. Two armor changes was enough to really power him up. The 1970 Red and Gold Iron Man had about a 30-35 STR, - he could lift a couple tons, but that was it by the time the Silver armor came in the mid 80s it was a 50 STR(about 10 tons), and by the mid 1990s he was pushing a 65 STR if not more by most campaign standards, since he was clearly a front line brick by that time and tossing around 50+ tons

I suggest you read some early Ironman stories [1960s-70s] when he was in the Avengers. Ironman and Thor picked up the Avenger's mansion and moved it back from the road so they would have more yard. It wasn't until the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe was published in the 80s that Ironman was given a 10 ton strength limit. Everyone laughed at that, but everyone laughed at most of the limits that were stated in the books.

 

As I said above though Ironman had the same gold and red armor for 20 years. There was never any suggestion his repulsors got more powerful in all that time. There were no changes until Ironman got new armor and that was an executive decision to sell more books.

 

There are thousands of examples of executive decision changes on characters [most of the examples Hugh stated above] but how many of them were permanent? Really none of them. Wally got faster and slower and faster. Kyle got more and less powerful. People lose and gain powers. Superman lives and dies. Ironman changed armor. Those things are just story points. In the long run things almost always go back to the way they were prior to the beginning of the story point. In most of those cases you're not seeing expenditure of experience.

[David Blue]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

MitchellS, could you take the original Beast, with the big hands, big feet and fancy vocabulary, and use him as an example of your ideas on spending caps in action?

 

Would you classify him as a brick, a martial artist, or what?

 

Assuming he doesn't have a radiation accident (no grey/blue/furry Beast), where would you tell the player he was free to expand, where would you say you can grow some more but here's the limit, and where would you say he's already fine for that character type, now leave well enough alone?

[MitchellS]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

MitchellS, could you take the original Beast, with the big hands, big feet and fancy vocabulary, and use him as an example of your ideas on spending caps in action?

 

Would you classify him as a brick, a martial artist, or what?

 

Assuming he doesn't have a radiation accident (no grey/blue/furry Beast), where would you tell the player he was free to expand, where would you say you can grow some more but here's the limit, and where would you say he's already fine for that character type, now leave well enough alone?

Sure. I would classify Beast as a low-powered brick in the same way I would classify Spider-man, and he would probably have some small martial arts to represent his style of fighting.

 

I see the original [X-Men #1] Beast as being a 35 Str, 24 Dex, 23 Con, 20 PD, 15 ED, 6 Spd character.

 

The furry blue Beast is a 40 Str, 30 Dex, 30 Con, 25 PD, 18 ED, 7 Spd character. I'd give the furry version 3 pd/ed damage resistance, a 1/2d6 HKA claws, and a power to represent the pheromones as well.

 

Both characters have the same basic skills though the blue version will be better at them. The blue version also has more perks and contacts as he is associated with the Avengers and other. The blue Beast has added a couple of new powers and improved on all his skills but he certainly hasn't changed that much. But keep in mind that I haven't read the Beast if several years and if the authors have decided to alter him again I have no knowledge of that.

 

If my player started out with the X-men #1 version his characteristics could improve to 55 Str, 31 Dex, 33 Con, 30 PD, 25 ED, and up to 8 Spd. If my player started with the blue version his characteristics could improve to 60 STR, 37 Dex, 40 Con, 35 PD, 28 ED, and up to 9 Spd. Though in all instances it would be unlikely in both instances that the character would ever progress that far.

 

Even more than characteristics though I'd expect to see a player improving skills, developing power stunts, and expanding their powers as well. As you can see in the X-Men 1 to blue Beast there is very little change in the characteristics, IMO. I'd expect the same from a player and that's why I put caps in place.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

"We're sorry ReIncarnator' date=' while your power to heal us back to full health from just this side of death's door is nice and all, we noticed you can't throw a punch to save your life. Instead of you, we've decided on Rampage Man- able to beat almost anyone to death with his barehands and looking for a new team because he killed three former teammates during a tantrum before he was thrown off the team and slapped with a restraining order."-- How genre does that seem to you?[/quote']

 

Please provide a list of genre examples of "The healer who cannot take care of himself in combat". The only healer I recall in recent memory was third-stringer Lifeguard from Xtreme X Men, and she could at least defend herself in a combat situation. There was a healer in the Morlocks, but he never saw combat - people came to him with their injured. As of recently, (Arch)angel can heal, but again, he can look after himself in a fight.

[Storn]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

mitchelS

 

I council you on being very, very careful. While it is your game... I think these caps could cause great conflict within your game. I certainly would NOT be happy with you as my GM, trying to place these caps on my creativity.

 

Some powers just cost more. My Teke has one power that is 168 active pts. It allows him to pick up several people and move them. It is an area effect tk with fine manipulation and affect porous... certainly something we've seen from countless comic book telekinetics. It allows me to clean my room, or paint a hallway with my TK. But while this power has proved invaluable time and time again, it isn't a world beater. 20 STR teke, no matter how many cool advantages, is going to take out dr. destroyer... (no, reasonable amounts of Missile Deflect did that).

 

If you are worried about dex and speed and str races within your group... the problem is not necessairly the game system. It is the expectations of what the group wants in conflict with what you expect.

 

I also am concerned about your classifications. What if I see the Beast 1 has having a 30 dex, 35 STR? Making those stands is just setting you up for conflict later on.

 

I think you are overly worried about what players will do. Don't be. You can still say NO to anything they purchase. If you present a consistent world, they will eventually find your "break points" and settle in. Hawkeye's arrows should NOT do more than 12d6, I agree, but 12d6 with Find Weakness of 14- will suck up a lot of points and be just fine for the 'experienced' Hawkeye. And I think that is the kinda thing you want to see.

 

One thing that RDUNeil has done, which I agree with, is that highly trained normals don't have caps, but any stat above 20 is pushing it. Any Damage Classes added to martial arts BEYOND 2 is considered tapping into Chi, mystic abilities. So 2 levels of DC is great training and knowing where to hit... so at a 20 STR, off strike, 2DC, you are looking at 10d6. Any more? And you need an origin that will support higher levels of damage dealing...cybernetics, chi powers, mystic hooziwhatisits weapons...something. But highly trained, totally normal, could get Find Weakness and be very damn scary.

 

Now, I admit that I have many, many characters in RDU. Most of them, I am looking for points to expand. Striker, a flying brick, covered in copper skin discovered in play that he had unique dimensional freedom in Teleport Space.... that wants me to craft a whole new suite of powers, such as Dimensional travel, teleport, energy blasts (channeling dimensional energies into a target). A few of them I'm looking for points to make MORE POWERFUL, as the concept allows, the world view demands and it make sense. My teke Vector could easily have a 20d6 EB up from his 15d6 and no one would blink... because his team, Vanguard, ARE the premiere team in the RDU. They are the big guns. And because 20d6 will not solve very many of Vanguard's problems, which tend to be global, political and affect huge numbers of people. And just a few, are almost perfect as they exist now.

 

There is a great game system out there that has caps and limitations built right in. It is called Mutants and Masterminds.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

You didn't read very well. I didn't say powers were only allowed a 20 point increase' date=' I said Primary Characteristics were only allowed a 20 point increase.[/quote']

 

I could have sworn I asked about powers and you indicated there were similar caps, but I must be mistaken. Sorry.

 

I do recall 20 pooints on Primaries, 10 on Secondaries except Speed which can be 20.

 

So the bottom line of the above is that the Brick can only increase his attack by 4 DC, total (unless he decides to go OOC and buy a Hand Attack, or Martial Arts, I suppose), but for the Energy Projector or the Telekinetic, the sky's the limit.

 

"Sorry, SuperDude, you can only increase your STR by 20 from your starting level, so you're capped at 90 since you started at 70. Speed Demon can increase his STR by the same 20 (going from a 15 to a 35), and increase his Running an unlimited amount. That's why his Move By now does more damage than your haymaker." Similarly "SuperDude, I told you - 10 points to each secondary characteristic. Your PD and ED are tapped out." "Well, DUH, Superdude! Because RingMan has a force field - that's a power so he can raise it as much as he wants."

 

Obviously, other limits will be enforced to prevent such results, but I see enforcing a restriction on increases to stats with no parsllel restrictions on powers as unduly punitive to character types whose stats are their primary focus. To me, Superman and the Thing have "Super-Stregth". It may show up in game as a stat, but it's their "Superpower". Limiting their ability to spend xp on their schtick while permitting others to go up higher solely because of the manner in which the game classifies their abilities doesn't strike me as any more equitable, beneficial or fun than an arbitrary "all increases capped at 20 AP" rule.

 

Oh, and just for the record, Iron Man regularly modified his armor over the 20 year period you mention (on one instance, selling back some PRE by adding a "nose" to his faceplate).

[MitchellS]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

I could have sworn I asked about powers and you indicated there were similar caps, but I must be mistaken. Sorry.

 

I do recall 20 pooints on Primaries, 10 on Secondaries except Speed which can be 20.

 

So the bottom line of the above is that the Brick can only increase his attack by 4 DC, total (unless he decides to go OOC and buy a Hand Attack, or Martial Arts, I suppose), but for the Energy Projector or the Telekinetic, the sky's the limit.

 

"Sorry, SuperDude, you can only increase your STR by 20 from your starting level, so you're capped at 90 since you started at 70. Speed Demon can increase his STR by the same 20 (going from a 15 to a 35), and increase his Running an unlimited amount. That's why his Move By now does more damage than your haymaker." Similarly "SuperDude, I told you - 10 points to each secondary characteristic. Your PD and ED are tapped out." "Well, DUH, Superdude! Because RingMan has a force field - that's a power so he can raise it as much as he wants."

 

Obviously, other limits will be enforced to prevent such results, but I see enforcing a restriction on increases to stats with no parsllel restrictions on powers as unduly punitive to character types whose stats are their primary focus. To me, Superman and the Thing have "Super-Stregth". It may show up in game as a stat, but it's their "Superpower". Limiting their ability to spend xp on their schtick while permitting others to go up higher solely because of the manner in which the game classifies their abilities doesn't strike me as any more equitable, beneficial or fun than an arbitrary "all increases capped at 20 AP" rule.

 

Oh, and just for the record, Iron Man regularly modified his armor over the 20 year period you mention (on one instance, selling back some PRE by adding a "nose" to his faceplate).

Jumping to conclusions again. Strength is classified as a power if it's the character's primary attack and so is not limited to just 20 points. Powers have a 50% increase cap. Again my caps are in place to represent the genre not the D&D mentality that you must always get more powerful. Superheroes don't really get substantially more powerful as I have shown several times above.

[MitchellS]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

mitchelS

 

I council you on being very, very careful. While it is your game... I think these caps could cause great conflict within your game. I certainly would NOT be happy with you as my GM, trying to place these caps on my creativity.

 

Some powers just cost more. My Teke has one power that is 168 active pts. It allows him to pick up several people and move them. It is an area effect tk with fine manipulation and affect porous... certainly something we've seen from countless comic book telekinetics. It allows me to clean my room, or paint a hallway with my TK. But while this power has proved invaluable time and time again, it isn't a world beater. 20 STR teke, no matter how many cool advantages, is going to take out dr. destroyer... (no, reasonable amounts of Missile Deflect did that).

 

If you are worried about dex and speed and str races within your group... the problem is not necessairly the game system. It is the expectations of what the group wants in conflict with what you expect.

 

I also am concerned about your classifications. What if I see the Beast 1 has having a 30 dex, 35 STR? Making those stands is just setting you up for conflict later on.

 

I think you are overly worried about what players will do. Don't be. You can still say NO to anything they purchase. If you present a consistent world, they will eventually find your "break points" and settle in. Hawkeye's arrows should NOT do more than 12d6, I agree, but 12d6 with Find Weakness of 14- will suck up a lot of points and be just fine for the 'experienced' Hawkeye. And I think that is the kinda thing you want to see.

 

One thing that RDUNeil has done, which I agree with, is that highly trained normals don't have caps, but any stat above 20 is pushing it. Any Damage Classes added to martial arts BEYOND 2 is considered tapping into Chi, mystic abilities. So 2 levels of DC is great training and knowing where to hit... so at a 20 STR, off strike, 2DC, you are looking at 10d6. Any more? And you need an origin that will support higher levels of damage dealing...cybernetics, chi powers, mystic hooziwhatisits weapons...something. But highly trained, totally normal, could get Find Weakness and be very damn scary.

 

Now, I admit that I have many, many characters in RDU. Most of them, I am looking for points to expand. Striker, a flying brick, covered in copper skin discovered in play that he had unique dimensional freedom in Teleport Space.... that wants me to craft a whole new suite of powers, such as Dimensional travel, teleport, energy blasts (channeling dimensional energies into a target). A few of them I'm looking for points to make MORE POWERFUL, as the concept allows, the world view demands and it make sense. My teke Vector could easily have a 20d6 EB up from his 15d6 and no one would blink... because his team, Vanguard, ARE the premiere team in the RDU. They are the big guns. And because 20d6 will not solve very many of Vanguard's problems, which tend to be global, political and affect huge numbers of people. And just a few, are almost perfect as they exist now.

 

There is a great game system out there that has caps and limitations built right in. It is called Mutants and Masterminds.

Power caps are set at 50% in my games. So if you have a 200 ap power it can be increased to 300 ap during the game. I cap characteristics because characters do not have the great of an increase during the course of a comic book run. I can't think of any characters which had their strength increased 16 times from the point they began at. Again this is done to represent the genre. Captain America does not get more agile than Spider-man just because Cap's player decided to spend his experience on dex and Spider-man's decided to buy more web power-stunts.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

Jumping to conclusions again. Strength is classified as a power if it's the character's primary attack and so is not limited to just 20 points. Powers have a 50% increase cap. Again my caps are in place to represent the genre not the D&D mentality that you must always get more powerful. Superheroes don't really get substantially more powerful as I have shown several times above.

 

Well, Jean Grey, but you're classifying her as a "teen champions" exception.

 

Cable. Starts out with very low-level telekinesis, really only good for out of combat application (and lots of big guns). Telekinesis grows radicaly over time (and he stops carrying big guns), and he gains telepathy at an extreme level. Techno-virus reintroduced and his mental powers drop off radically. Under your structure, he needs a radiation accident to go from "starting character" to above 15 STR TK.

 

The fact is, many characters in the comics have a serious case of "power level flux". Sometimes it's as "permanent" as anything in the comics. Sometimes, it's a single story arc (How come Spidey can survive a battle with the Hulk, but has trouble a month later with the Kingpin?). Power level flux is a fact of comic book "life". It IS part of the genre.

 

But, in games, we want our characters to be more stable, and to progress, not regress. So the power level flux is sacrificed in favour of gradual increases generated by xp. The thing is, in most games, the power rise makes little real difference. The increasing power of the player characters is simply offset by greater power for their opponents. It's rare that we see Our Heroes (now with 150 xp) go up against the same guys they fought in their first adventure and clean their clocks due to their vastly enhanced experience.

[Storn]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

Superheroes don't really more powerful as I have shown several times above.

 

No... Your INTERPERTATION is that superheroes in comics don't get more powerful. It is a slight, but important distinction.

 

And that is why I cautioned drawing a line in the sand. Under certain writers, Beast could have 3d6 claws, under others 1d6+1. Or 40 STR or 50 STR.

 

Superman, The Ray, Firestorm, Doc Strange, Swamp Thing, many of the New Mutants who made it to adult hood, Raven of the teen titans, heck, Grayson Robin to Nightwing,.... I could INTEPERET them as substantially more powerful now (or at the end of their run) than their origin ish. Others have been pointed out.

 

Certainly characters plateau... Spiderman really hasn't changed all that much in the STR dept from the early 70s...but he is considerably stronger than when he first appeared.

 

Power doesn't necessarily mean raw power either. Does anyone think that Dick Grayson Robin could hope to hold his own vs. himself as the more older, experienced, weapon weilding Nightwing?

 

I"m all for genre emulation, but basing it on one person's interpertation is a slippery slope... no it has to be YOUR group's interpertation and it has to be arrived at through time and negotiation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

Power caps are set at 50% in my games. So if you have a 200 ap power it can be increased to 300 ap during the game. I cap characteristics because characters do not have the great of an increase during the course of a comic book run. I can't think of any characters which had their strength increased 16 times from the point they began at. Again this is done to represent the genre. Captain America does not get more agile than Spider-man just because Cap's player decided to spend his experience on dex and Spider-man's decided to buy more web power-stunts.

 

So if my character starts off with a suite of mental powers including a very low-level force field which is an application he has just learned to effect, I can never become highly skilled at it because I can only increase its AP by 50%.

 

What if I buy a new power? Can I start at very low AP and build it up gradually (simulating, for example, the Black Canary just learning how to use her sonic powers), or do I have to save enough points to buy, say, a 10d6 EB because I ultimately want it to cap out at a 15d6 EB?

[Storn]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

Power caps are set at 50% in my games. So if you have a 200 ap power it can be increased to 300 ap during the game. I cap characteristics because characters do not have the great of an increase during the course of a comic book run. I can't think of any characters which had their strength increased 16 times from the point they began at. Again this is done to represent the genre. Captain America does not get more agile than Spider-man just because Cap's player decided to spend his experience on dex and Spider-man's decided to buy more web power-stunts.

 

Why are you worried? Are your players showing a predilection of stepping on each other's schticks? In Mitchel Universe, why can't Capt America be more agile than Spidey? It's your group's universe.

 

Now, I think we are getting to the heart of the matter. Players being respectful of each other's niches.

 

Vanguard is made up of 3 core characters, Vector (me), Thermal (Bill) and Locke (Eric). I said earlier than I could easily bump up my EB to 20d6. But I won't. Because that is Thermal schtick (his is about 17d6 or 18 at the moment). Thermal should be the biggest boom stick as the inheritor of the Firewing mantle. If Thermal moves up to 22d6 (Neil is shuddering ), I would consider moving to 18d6 if I didn't have better things to spend on.

 

Locke, a psychic, was looking to expand. Eric, being very concerned, came to me and asked about Locke gaining Telekinesis... very plausible, Locke is a powerful PSi, most powerful PC Psi there is. ERic didn't want to step on Vector's schtick, but thought Teke was reasonalbe and useful and the story within PLAY supported the concept.

 

I told Eric not to worry. Vector and Locke have been played for years, we KNOW these characters. They are more defined now by personality than by power suites. My teke would be different than Locke's...nothing really would change that and I wouldn't be threatened. But I really appreciate Eric taking that time to confer with me.

 

BUT! If Vector and Locke were just beginning 275 pt characters, I would have asked ERic not to take a teke power, as that was Vector's schtick. This has nothing to do with power levels, mechanics, caps, active pts or rules... this has everything to do with the group social contract.

 

So, ask your group who is going to be the strongest, the fastest, the most agile, the most boom-y, the most tactically adaptable... let them negotiate that... and then you can throw your caps right out the window. It will all be taken care of in the metagame and you always have veto power.

[MitchellS]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

Why are you worried? Are your players showing a predilection of stepping on each other's schticks? In Mitchel Universe' date=' why can't Capt America be more agile than Spidey? It's your group's universe.[/quote']

The difference is that I'm trying to play within the genre. I'm not playing D&D Champions where players start out at 1st level [350 points] and advance to 20th level [1,000 points] and fight giant ancient red dragons. That gaming style works for many people but it doesn't work for me.

 

No matter who INTERPRETS the comics Batman will never be stronger than Superman or quicker than Flash just because he has more experience to spend. The writers put limits on the characters just like I put limits on the characters. The difference is that you can see mine with numbers but you can't see their with words. I'm looking to play within comic book "realism" and that doesn't dictate that Thor started out as a 50 strength brick and worked his way up to 100.

 

The real difference is the D&D mentality of the game. Your players apparently expect to start out at 350 points and eventually be able to fight Dr. Destroyer on his own level. I don't agree with that expectation. That expectation is not part of the genre. In comic books foes who are too powerful for an individual hero are fought by teams of heroes. The individual hero does not get more powerful. Players in our games understand that they are going to get more powerful but if they were not in Thor's league to begin with they will not be surpassing Thor in the future because that's not part of the genre we are attempting to emulate.

[MitchellS]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

So if my character starts off with a suite of mental powers including a very low-level force field which is an application he has just learned to effect, I can never become highly skilled at it because I can only increase its AP by 50%.

 

What if I buy a new power? Can I start at very low AP and build it up gradually (simulating, for example, the Black Canary just learning how to use her sonic powers), or do I have to save enough points to buy, say, a 10d6 EB because I ultimately want it to cap out at a 15d6 EB?

I expect players to add new power stunts with their powers as the game progresses. I encourage it but there are limits. If a character's primary power is a 14d6 eb I'm not going to let them purchase a 7d5 RKA even though that falls within my +50% limit. No rule is carved in stone. They are guidelines. If a player wants something we discuss it but if he started as a 14 DC character no attack will ever be bigger than 21 DC, no matter if it is his original power or a power purchased later.

[MitchellS]

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers

 

In any event, as I said in the first post, a good measure of where players should be at various power levels is listed in the table in 5E and 5Er. A 450 point super should be looking at no DC over 16 and CVs maxing at 14. A 600 point character should be look at not over 20 DC and 16 CV, etc. As the game progresses if you can stay within those guidelines you should be doing ok.