[Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

[Andrea]

Hi,

I'm starting with my first campaign of Champions and I'd like to have a character with the desolidification, nevertheless in the book is strongly advised to keep in mind the possible implication of this power.

SInce I'm not expert I'm asking the "sage" of the forum if this power is so truly umbalancing and if it brings real difficulties for the Master.

 

Thanks

 

PS I will be interested even in discover if exist a way of limiting is "umbalancing" effect.

[Jhamin]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

There are a couple problems with Desolidification that can flummox folks.

 

1) You are immune to all damage unless it comes from the one thing you are vulnerable to. This means the character can ignore the mega-baddies of your game with impunity. Unless someone knows how to hurt them, they are totally unable to affect them.

The flip side of this is that unless you let them buy a power otherwise, the PC it totally unable to hurt anyone. This means that if a character's main power is desolid when the big fight starts all they can do is opt out of it, which isn't very satisfying.

If they do have the power to deal out damage when desolid, then you have a PC that can hurt others while ignoring their attacks. An invincible character.

 

2) The PC can ignore environmental issues. The Villians impregnible fortress? Walk right through the walls. Chained up in the lair? Desolid right out. Civilians in a house fire? Walk right past the flames.

Once again, the PC is invincible right up until their desolid vulnerability comes up. So you are forced to either let them run roughshod over your plots or hobble them every game.

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

Hi' date='I'm starting with my first campaign of Champions and I'd like to have a character with the desolidification, nevertheless in the book is strongly advised to keep in mind the possible implication of this power.SInce I'm not expert I'm asking the "sage" of the forum if this power is so truly umbalancing and if it brings real difficulties for the Master.ThanksPS I will be interested even in discover if exist a way of limiting is "umbalancing" effect.[/quote']Jhamin makes some good basic points. Desolidification can be a bugger to manage if it's not controlled carefully. It's a Stop Sign Power for a reason. One extremely dangerous construct is the desolid character who can attack while desolid. Normally, a desolid character has to become solid to attack (or affect the real world in any way). Due to the timing of the game, after the character attacks, he's stuck solid until at least the next Segment (when he can blow a phase to turn desolid, if needed). This is something of a balancing issue - unless you're willing to sit there desolid while the villain gets away, you'll have to become solid at some point, and vulnerable.Mental Powers always affect a desolid character. So do Sense-Affecting Powers like Flash. Plus, the character has to have something that works on him when he's desolid. So, there are some ways to get to him. However, Jhamin's completely right that, unless the GM loads the scenarios with characters who have attacks that exploit these vulnerabilities, the Desolid character is basically invulnerable. It's a tremendous defense.Now, there are other ways to control it besides the defined vulnerabilities. You can get around the penetration of the villain's fortress by making the walls with the Affects Desolid Advantage. You can force the character to become solid or just stand there watching while the bad guys get away. And, it's hard to rescue innocents if you can't touch them.I have a character who can go desolid (special effect - turns into liquid), but I rarely use the power except to penetrate small areas or flow through air ducts. The character has a "Protects innocents" Psychological Limitation, so he usually has to remain solid to act in accordance with it.I think, in the balance, Desolidification depends on the GM and the player not to abuse it. If you have a mature group of players who are willing to work within the genre, it's not normally a problem. If you wind up with a problem, you (as the GM) can control it by throwing in a few villains with the appropriate attacks. Good for players who get a little too cocky in their invulnerability.

[TheEmerged]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

I allowed the PC in the first HERO campaign I tried to run to take Desolid. I haven't allowed it in unlimited form since. I won't repeat what the others said above, since they stated it well.

 

To me the biggest problem was that it turned the game into the d2 system (not a typo) -- they could either completely ignore the opposition, or were close to hosed. That does not a long & interesting campaign make.

[Lightray]

I'll add a minor quibble to Jhamin's points -- the environmental effects to which Desolidification provides immunity is limited mostly to those that cause damage. Effects that are based on the desolidified-character's breathing, for example, are able to affect the desolidified-character.

 

In terms of making a character with Desolidification that would be acceptable to most GMs, here are a few suggestions:

 

- Do not take 0 END on your desolidification. Especially not Persistent. And really not Always On.

 

- Do not take Affects Physical World attacks. These are even less appealing if they have Does BODY, too. I suggest a nice NND attack of some sort for most desolid characters.

 

- Choose a vulnerability for your Desolidification that is relatively common. "Fire" or "Magic", for example, turn up pretty often as enemy powers.

 

- Make sure your character has some other defenses, so when the GM has someone who can affect you your character isn't taken completely out of the fight.

 

- Discuss the character with the GM and other players. In particular, think about what your character's actions in combat are going to be, and whether anyone has any criticisms/suggestions.

[steriaca]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

I myself have created a villian named The Devilfish (for the New Circle thread), and I gave him Desolifcation. I sorta "balanced" it by giving him a "vulnerability" to heat, cold, ice, and fire attacks (since his special effect is to change himself into mirky water).

 

Another villian, Red Death, also has desolification. To limit him, I basicly run it as a movement power. He can be hurt while deoslid by anyone with a desnity manipulation power (Density Increse, Desolification with that special effect), and Force special effects (Force Walls, Force Fields, Force Blasts, ect...).

 

Still, as a newbie, I would limit all stop sign powers to one test villian (just to see if you can run the power corectly) before letting anyone else have such powers.

[OddHat]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

On the other side, in some campaigns I don't see Desolid as a combat problem. In a magic heavy campaign Affects Desolid, Flash, variable SFX, and Ego Attacks show up fairly often, as do other attack that can take a desolid character down. You do gain immunity to conventional weapons and most (but not all) HtH Attacks, but as has been pointed out above, you trade that for reduced attack potential.

 

It's scouting with desolid that can really blow a GMs plans in many campaigns, unless he's willing to give many major bad guys hide-outs with ADSO walls. Again, there are campaigns where this won't be a problem, and where the GM has actually based a plot point on having Desolid Guy find something by going through a wall.

 

Talk it over with your GM, and see how he feels about it.

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

Desolid by itself isn't so bad... it's when you stack it with other powers like Invisibility, or the single attack which impacts it is so obscure as to be useless ("my desolid is only affected by this one specific wavelength of electro-magnetic energy, so only radio based attacks can harm me"). And as many folks have said, affects real world based attacks can make the power seem broken pretty damn fast.

 

Of course the simple answer to the obscure attack form would be to arm all the hired goons with, for example, "obscure-radio-frequency blasters". But that's getting kind of silly... and I'd just veto the power myself (unless the player absolutely had to be taught the lesson for some reason and I was willing to waste all the other players' time to do so).

 

I guess as always it's the careful examination by the GM that makes all the difference.

[Trebuchet]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

We have a desolidifier in our current campaign, Silhouette, who has never been a problem to deal with. Since she's our team's brick, she has to resolidify in order to attack or interact with 99% of opponents. And Desolidifying bad guys and/or Affects Desolid attacks have been just common enough to keep her on her toes.

 

As long as you respect the GM's concerns and don't try to abuse the power you shouldn't have any problem. Would I allow just any player to have Desolidification? No, but I'd allow anyone of the players in our campaign to have one because I trust them.

[GaryB]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

The great balancing tool for Desolid, for GM's to remember is most attacks need 'Effects Solid', which mainly effects any primary and physically damaging powers. Which saves some headache. However you have to watch out mainly for the Desolid mentalists. Mental effects 'normally' effect a desolid character, but someone who is a mentalist is usually built to withstand mental effects as well as use them.

 

However, what I suggest is that any attack powers from a desolid using character require the +2 advantage to effect the physical world. This still leaves desolid useful as an out of combat tool for whatever, and still useful for a defense.

 

Generally if there are a lot of desolid things in a campaign either by PC powers or NPC builds, I will lessen the advantage cost of Affects Desolid.

 

Desolid is very powerful, but as it is there are plenty of counters to it's uberness. The key is, if the GM plans on using it alot then the PC's should be prepared for it, or later find a way to deal with it (if they live). Or if the PC's plan on using it, the GM should play along for a while as if it is actually useful...and as the NPC baddies fight them, eventually they catch on and find a way to neutralize the desolid...making the PC paranoid about desolid in future encounters.

[Lightray]

Desolid is very powerful' date=' but as it is there are plenty of counters to it's uberness. The key is, if the GM plans on using it alot then the PC's should be prepared for it, or later find a way to deal with it (if they live). Or if the PC's plan on using it, the GM should play along for a while as if it is actually useful...and as the NPC baddies fight them, eventually they catch on and find a way to neutralize the desolid...making the PC paranoid about desolid in future encounters.[/quote']

This, to my thinking, is the main problem with Desolidification. If its use in the campaign will inevitably lead to either the GM or the player being frustrated, then Desolidification shouldn't be in your game.

 

If the GM is always frustrated that he can't ever effect Just-Like-Shadowcat without being forced to use more and more outrageous powers and/or plots, then Desolid is not good for the game.

 

If the player is always frustrated that every enemy comes equipped with powers and/or plots that effect Just-Like-Phantom-Girl, then Desolid is not good for the game.

 

The GM spends lots of time working on adventures and he shouldn't have them horked just because of one player's Desolid powers make things he couldn't predict happen. The player spent all those points on her Desolid powers, and shouldn't have them wasted because she's not getting the benefit she expected.

[GaryB]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

Well, it doesn't take much for a GM to whip up an anti-desolid weapon for henchmen. Once the players figure out which weapons are the anti-desolid weapons, they can start disabling and taking those weapons away. Once this tactic fails, it just takes a little amount of time to counter the desolid another way for something else. It is an endless circle. Sometimes Desolid will be useful, and then sometimes it wont be.

 

You can look at it like armor and find weakness. Sometimes there will be that person with find weakness who negates the brick with high defenses. Yeah, he paid points for the armor but this doesn't mean the points spent on armor were pointless, it just means the situation calls for different tactics to get around the find weakness.

 

Just because some people have either a permanent way or even a temporary way of dealing with desolid does not mean the points spent on desolid were wasted. It requires different measures for the character to deal with the situation.

 

No points spent on powers are ever wasted just because there is a counter it it...that is unless the GM is a real jerk about it.

[BNakagawa]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

While desolidification by itself is pretty reasonable, there are combinations that should be carefully watched, if not banned outright.

 

Invisibility + desol has been mentioned.

 

Desol + 10 STR affects solid world is potentially a game-breaker depending on the situation. Can a character with that combo pick up a gun? Pull the pin on somebody else's grenade? Ick.

 

Add stretching to the above combo for even more irritation...

 

I guess it depends on how weasly your player(s) are. I know of some players I know I wouldn't mind having desolidification. I know of some I wouldn't dream of letting them have it...

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

The problem with Desolid is that it's pretty much all-or-nothing:

 

1) I can be impervious to harm or I can help out in a fight

 

2) The character is impervious to harm or the GM has to take special steps to make attacks that can be used against the character, leading the character to feel "picked on".

 

There are very few "all or nothings" in the HERO system, and Desolid is really one of those. (Another example of such things would be an NND attack.)

 

If the player of the character doesn't mind sitting out combat -- or doesn't mind taking up a "scout / spotter" roll during combat, you don't have a problem. If the character has good enough defenses to survive a fight when they're not Desolid, there's no problem. If the character can't stand up in a fight while not Desolid, and feels left out as a result, there's a problem. If the character has a good-sized Affects Physical World attack they can use while Desolid in a fight, there's a problem. Making sure every two-bit goon just happens to have an Affects Desolid gun isn't the answer, either.

 

The real answer is to think through the possible problems beforehand, and talk with the player about character concept and possible consequences before you start playing.

 

Maybe the player doesn't mind being largely left out of a fight; in that case, suggest they develop something that can let them help out in the fight without being gamebreaking. For example, because they can move around the battlefield without fear of being hurt, they can get a very good idea of what's going on where; they also can look as long as they want without having to worry about ducking, and if they can pass along vital bits of information to their teammates during a combat, it'll give them a sense of contributing to the victory and give them a little something to do during combat. This could be simulated by something like +1 OCV, Usable By Others At Range, Requires a Perception Check. Not terribly expensive, and sure to be appreciated by the other players. Buy 3 or 4 so you can give one to each teammate, or stack them up if a certain key character really needs to make his or her next shot count.

 

Another good idea is to suggest the character NOT take Reduced END Cost on the power; you might even suggest they take Increased END Cost. It'll cut down the time they can use it (meaning they won't be using it every phase in combat) but it's still there when they need it. That will have to be carefully watched so the player doesn't end up feeling the power is "useless", but it's a good place to start.

 

As has already been suggested, get the player to make the thing that affects the Desolid character something reasonably common, like fire-based or light-based attacks. (Light-based attacks is a no-brainer; after all, people can still see the character when they're Desolid, meaning that light still interacts with them.)

 

On the other hand, make it clear to the player that after the character has become moderatley well-known, opponents who come expecting to face the team will come prepared to deal with the characters and what's known about their abilities, so they shouldn't be surprised if some opponents (not all) come prepared to deal with a Desolid character.

 

As already pointed out, there are attacks that can affect a Desolid character...Mental attacks, Flashes, gas-based NNDs, and so on. If the super team is going to be facing a team of opponents, it's not unreasonable for one of the opposing team members to have some flash-bang grenades or whatever. Just make sure you don't go exclusively after the Desolid character with them, or they will feel "picked on" -- and with every right. Better yet if the gas grenades (or whatever) have a small Area of Effect, as such things would, realistically. That means the weapon can be a threat or at least a minor nusiance to all the heroes, not just the Desolid character, and the Desolid one's player won't feel singled out for "special attention."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

I hate the idea of banning Desolid.

 

"Sorry, your Super based on the Vision/the Sandman/Martian Manhunter does not fit into a Supers game".

 

"A spell that lets you walk through walls/become a ghost/turn into gas is not apropriate in a fantasy game."

 

"Technology which takes you out of phase with the real world/allows you to walk through walls is inappropriate to a Space Opera game."

 

These feel wrong to me.

 

That said, I agree with its "warning label" for many of the same reasons posted above by others. A lot depends on how common you are prepared to permit "affects desolid" attacks to be. A sonic attack (he's not deaf while desolid, is he?) is a reasonable justification, for example. In Supers campaigns, I see more than enough "swiss army Multi's", VPP's , variable advantages and affexts desolid powers to have little fear a desolid character will be unbeatable.

 

But for sure watch out for "affects solid world" and anything else allowing the character to effectively impact combat without becoming solid.

[fbdaury]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

Desolid is no more or less unbalancing than any other 40 points worth of power would be. So, you gal can walk through walls, so what? If the bad guy has half a brain they will find ways to hamper the character. How long can your gal hold her breath- unless she has life support so she does not need to breath then she cannot stay desolid for too long. And reme,ber, affects desolid on powers is only a +1/2 advantage, and, since most desolid characters are used to things passing right through them, theat first attack with a affects desolid weapon SHOULD catch the character off guard- at the very least the attacker should get at least a surprise attack bonus. If you, as the GM, choose not to take into account all the parameters to a power, then yes, desolid CAN be unbalancing, but if you take things like how long the character can hold their breath, affects desolid, the character's vulnerbility to certain attack types, etc. into account, it does not need to be at all.

 

Just my .02

[Doc Democracy]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

If, as a GM, you are concerned that a player will not be effective because it is either invulnerable or completely vulnerable then you should be guiding the player in how to be effective in your game.

 

One way is to make agreements with the player - write them down if you want. I had an agreement with a player that they would only use their desolidification in specific ways and at specific times as seemed appropriate by genre. When he pointed out times that he would normally have used the power but didn't then I gave him a dice bonus (he could, at any time in the adventure, change a dice roll by 2). I allowed him to stack up to three of these for one roll. I also promised that is he used it in genre then I would ignore him 'in genre' too when he became solid but he had to return dice bonuses for that.

 

Another way is to suggest that the player puts the desolid in a multipower with some kind of defence (armour/force field etc) that kicked in when he wasn't desolid - reflecting a lesser use of desolid in avoiding the bulk of damage and allowing it to affect the normal world while not being able to walk through walls etc.

 

There are all kinds of ways to use the system to get what you want if you talk about it beforehand with the player.

 

 

Doc

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

Well, I have two characters with Desolid in my current campaign. One is Spector, who has supernatural based Desolidification along with Invisibility and limited TK. The other is EBB, who has water based Desolid-not through airtight. I've never really had a problem with eiher in the campaign for the following reasons...

 

1) You can't attack while Desolid and neither has any powers that affect the physical world. So the use of the power is primarily either for stealth(I can sneak in to many places) of defense(wow that'd have fried me). I told both players up front how Desolid worked...so there were no issues in that regard.

 

2) Both players are big into roleplaying....and thus the more "powergamey" aspects of Desolid aren't as much of an issue.

 

3) As a GM, I don't mind the power that much. It basically leads to a stalemate...and the characters without Desolid become the targets. Sure the villain loses a phase, but so do you. Against a mess of agents, that tactic is worthless. The Megavillain may not be able to hurt you, but there are plenty of people he CAN hurt.

 

4) Both players have vulnerabilities that are likely to come up often. Spector is affected by magic attacks, which is common in my game. EBB is affected by sonics. While not that common, EBB is hunted by Eurostar, who has a member whose primary attacks are sound based. Plus, her vulnerability is well known.

 

5) Both players have plenty of other things they can do...so defaulting to Desolid all the time isn't as attractive. Both characters are balanced in other respects to make up for the advantages of Desolid.

 

I've never had an issue with Desolid, but I'm a pretty control heavy GM from a character creation standpoint.

 

Rob

[Mortuorum`]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

It's scouting with desolid that can really blow a GMs plans in many campaigns, unless he's willing to give many major bad guys hide-outs with ADSO walls. Again, there are campaigns where this won't be a problem, and where the GM has actually based a plot point on having Desolid Guy find something by going through a wall.

 

Talk it over with your GM, and see how he feels about it.

Agreed. As a GM, I recommend never allowing a character with Desolid and Invisibility or boatloads of Stealth. Then every other game becomes an exercise in the Desolid character scouting the base for two hours while the rest of the players sit around bored out of their skulls.

 

Lots of Shrinking can have the same result.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

As said, as with pretty much anything else, on its own, desolid is not broken. In certain combinations it can be rude (invis, strong mental defenses/extra defenses against things that could affect them, affects solid world attacks). Individual powers are rarely abusive/disruptive. Whole characters and players can be.

 

As a defense - how much PD/ED could you buy with 40pts if you did it with the limits "Costs End" and "Cannot attack while on" ? On top of your existing defenses, probably enough to stop most attacks, or reduce them to trifles. Dodge, Block, Missile Deflect could all accomplish the same thing, and all have their downsides. Desolid still affected by some things and Affects Desolid attacks. Dodge not good vs AE attacks. Block no good vs ranged, MD no good vs HTH, etc.

 

As for getting into the villain's base - well, you *want* the heroes to get into it, right? The points sunk into desolid could just as easily go to extra attacks, Find Weakness, tunnelling, etc that would get them through the door/wall. Once the desolid character is inside, he's usually alone - and that can be bad for him until he can go solid and open the door for the rest of the team. And all the desolid in the world won't help you know where to look to find the villain's base in the first place.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

Just another thought:

 

I recently designed a desolid-less desolid character.

Good defenses, a few invisibilities (notably touch), and tunneling (self only, fill in), and BOOM! A ghost that is never invulnerable, but always hard to hurt.

[Lightray]

Lots of Shrinking can have the same result.

Heh. I played in a game once where someone's character was an uber-sneaky, can't-notice-me, shrinking hero. She informed us that we should all wait outside while she scouted out the hostage crisis.

 

She'd forgotten to purchase an appropriate movement power. So the GM informed her that her move would be 6" Running x 1/256 for her Shrinking.

 

We laughed at her and the rest of us moved in. I think she got KO'd when she tried a Shrinking momentum-damage attack and we realized she'd also been relying on her Shrinking DCV for defenses.

 

Back to topicity: Desolid can have that moment-after-materialization vulnerability, too.

[TheEmerged]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

Just a clarification: I don't ban Desolid, I require it to have limitations I feel are appropriate. That's a slight but mentionable difference...

[steriaca]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

Of course the simple answer to the obscure attack form would be to arm all the hired goons with' date=' for example, "obscure-radio-frequency blasters". But that's getting kind of silly... [/quote']

 

Well, not as silly as Vulnerability to Anything With A Yellow Color (and, yes, Green Lantern CAN be Desolid if heplays with his VVP ring just right), or any Wooden Object.

[Katherine]

Re: [Newbie] Is desolidification truly unbalancing ?

 

Does Desolid come with a built in limitation that you must hold your breath while using it?