Gary Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? Actually, the real abuse is buying all your powers "1 googolplex charges" (+1) "Charges Never Recover" (reduces from +1 advantage to -1 limitation). All your powers are now 0 END and half price. Oh, and your character never gets into a self-respecting campaign. The advanced version of the End Reserve abuse combines both of these abuses. Your character who normally spends 20 End a phase now takes X10 End cost for all powers for a -4 cost break on everything. Now he buys a 200 End Reserve (20 active points), and makes it 1 googol charges that never recovers for a -1. Now for the price of 10 real points, the character gets a -4 cost break on everything and never has to worry about End. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? Erm, if you bought an END Reserve with charges, to my mind, that would just mean that you could only use the END and the REC a limited number of times: it wouldn't change how it works, or give you, in effect, more END Reserves. If you get into advantage territory (the +1 for a googol, or a googolplex, if you fancy) then all it means is you will never run out of uses of the END Reserve, but you'd still have to recover any END you used before you could use it again, so I don't really see that one. Charges is a way to avoid paying END: it is meaningless except as an advantage for powers that do not use END. I am cogniscent of the rather odd situation outlined by Hugh Neilson: I never saw the need for having END Reserve in the system, when you could just build it with a limited form of END and REC anyway. The END in an END Reserve is 1/5 normal cost and the REC is 1/2 normal cost. Why? Well OK, the REC is probably over priced given that normal REC recovers both END and STUN, but the END itself is ludicrously cheap. Moreover (and fixing this would largely fix it to my mind) if you drain END from the Reserve (with the drain power) it goes at 2 points per point, not 10 points per point. Having said that, I've not spotted anyone abusing END Reserves in this way, but if you do, report it immediately to the authorities! Your interpretation is logical, but it has been confirmed by Steve that using a fresh charge refreshes all End from an End Reserve. http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3977&highlight=charges+end+reserve Also, the FAQ is very specific that the End refreshes with each new charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? I've never much liked End Reserve at all. Why should End be so much cheaper if you buy it in a reserve than if you buy it as a Characteristic? There's no real built-in limitation to the Reserve, aside from its only taking Post-Segment-12 Recoveries (which it takes even if you are unconscious, so I don't view it as much of a limitation). In my campaigns, End Reserve costs the same amount as normal End, except for the first 20 points of End ("average normal" End value) which costs the standard price for End Reserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? You have a few adventures between game sessions. Your out of your 256 charges. They never recover. What now? EDIT: That was me being Mr. Too Clever for His Own Good GM Man. I couldn't resist. That's the problem. It's not 256 charges. It's 1 with a googol zeros' behind it (a googol is 1 with a million zeroes behind it). Try running the charges out - you need to have LS: Immortal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? That's the problem. It's not 256 charges. It's 1 with a googol zeros' behind it (a googol is 1 with a million zeroes behind it). Try running the charges out - you need to have LS: Immortal! I'm aware of the concept of the number, but you ain't gettin' that for a +1 Advantage. A +1 Advantage is 256 Charges. EDIT: Or somewhere thereabouts. I believe 16 Charges is a +0, but I'm not 100% sure of that one. It might be 32 for a +0. In any case, every doubling from that point is +1/4 extra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? I'm aware of the concept of the number' date=' but you ain't gettin' that for a +1 Advantage. A +1 Advantage is 256 Charges.[/quote'] Nope, charges cap out at +1 no matter how many charges you take. Thats under the theory that charges should never be more expensive than 0 End cost for an autofire attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? Nope' date=' charges cap out at +1 no matter how many charges you take. Thats under the theory that charges should never be more expensive than 0 End cost for an autofire attack.[/quote'] Gary, was it you that specifically posed the "1 googol non-recoverable charges" question on the rules board? I recall someone doing that. As to the "your charges are out" answer, for a player who's going to rape the rules anyway, do you think he's abpve retiring the character once the charges run out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? Gary' date=' was it you that specifically posed the "1 googol non-recoverable charges" question on the rules board? I recall someone doing that.[/quote'] Yep, guilty as charged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? The advanced version of the End Reserve abuse combines both of these abuses. Your character who normally spends 20 End a phase now takes X10 End cost for all powers for a -4 cost break on everything. Now he buys a 200 End Reserve (20 active points)' date=' and makes it 1 googol charges that never recovers for a -1. Now for the price of 10 real points, the character gets a -4 cost break on everything and never has to worry about End.[/quote'] That would be a Character that is broken because of abusing the power to create something unintended by a player who is abusive, not a rule that is broken, IMHO. There is virtually no power or skill that cannot be bought to the levell of ridiculous and thus be abused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? That would be a Character that is broken because of abusing the power to create something unintended by a player who is abusive' date=' not a rule that is broken, IMHO. There is virtually no power or skill that cannot be bought to the levell of ridiculous and thus be abused.[/quote'] That was the advanced abuse. The basic level abuse merely buys the power as written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? Nope' date=' charges cap out at +1 no matter how many charges you take. Thats under the theory that charges should never be more expensive than 0 End cost for an autofire attack.[/quote'] Oh. I'm sorry. I don't have my book with me, and I guess that's one of those silly little rules I completely ignored. Well, in that case I myself would cap the overall Limitation at +1, but that's after figuring in all the modifications such as Charges Never Recover (this would be my common sense approach, though I'm not sure if it jives with the exact wording in the book). So your case of a googol (that's 10^100, BTW, not 10^1,000,000) Charges would be 10^100 ~= 2^330, which equates to approximately a +83 Advantage, -2 for the Charges Never Recover, and thats a +81, capped at +1. Yeah for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? Oh. I'm sorry. I don't have my book with me' date=' and I guess that's one of those silly little rules I completely ignored. Well, in that case I myself would cap the [i']overall[/i] Limitation at +1, but that's after figuring in all the modifications such as Charges Never Recover (this would be my common sense approach, though I'm not sure if it jives with the exact wording in the book). So your case of a googol (that's 10^100, BTW, not 10^1,000,000) Charges would be 10^100 ~= 2^330, which equates to approximately a +83 Advantage, -2 for the Charges Never Recover, and thats a +81, capped at +1. Yeah for you. That's still ultra cheap to allow you to place a -4 limitation on every power and essentially have 0 End cost for everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? That's still ultra cheap to allow you to place a -4 limitation on every power and essentially have 0 End cost for everything. Why? I can add 0 End and Persistent to something for a +1, and then, "...place a -4 limitation on every power and essentially have 0 End cost for everything." Or even just the 0 End for a +1/2 and have 0 End for even cheaper. I don't see your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? Oh. I'm sorry. You meant use those Charges on the End Reserve. Yes. Well, I don't think I go with the whole Charges completely rejuvinate an End Reserve thing. I find that a little ridiculous, no matter who proposed the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? That's still ultra cheap to allow you to place a -4 limitation on every power and essentially have 0 End cost for everything. It would still be illegal by the rules as written. An infinite supply of Charges isn't worth -1/4' date=' never mind -4. (IIRC, there haven't been a googleplex of [i']seconds[/i] since the Big Bang!) Remember the metarule for all Limitations (5ER, pg. 280): A Limitation that doesn't limit the character isn't worth any bonus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? Oh. I'm sorry. You meant use those Charges on the End Reserve. Yes. Well' date=' I don't think I go with the whole Charges completely rejuvinate an End Reserve thing. I find that a little ridiculous, no matter who proposed the idea.[/quote'] To further clarify, Charges on a Multipower apply to the whole Multipower, meaning you get your charges in use on all the Powers together, not each one of them. Why is this so much more restrictive than Charges on an End Reserve? I think if you buy Charges for the End of an End Reserve, it acts like it would otherwise, but you can only pull End out of it when you expend a Charge. If there are Charges on the Rec, then it only Recovers that many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? I'd disagree with that premise. Mutant Boy with a Secret ID can slap on just his mask and be in action against the bad guys a second later. Powered Armor Dude has to spend several seconds (at least) putting on his suit before he can engage the enemy, and until he completes that he's vulnerable to attack. Secret ID protection is only part of the equation for powered armor characters. ...and if he'd used modern computers and a Windows operating system to run the armour systems, it would be a lot longer than that. An awful lot longer. Then you'd get the thing hanging when you try to do something complicated, like open the calculator or the media player, that could be a bit embarassing, just starting at this little hour glass on your HUD, and... ...sorry, what were we talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? To further clarify' date=' Charges on a Multipower apply to the whole Multipower, meaning you get your charges in use on all the Powers together, not each one of them. Why is this so much more restrictive than Charges on an End Reserve? I think if you buy Charges for the End of an End Reserve, it acts like it would otherwise, but you can only pull End out of it when you expend a Charge. If there are Charges on the Rec, then it only Recovers that many times.[/quote'] As I said before, that would be the logical interpretation. However, that is not the official interpretation as voiced by Steve Long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? It would still be illegal by the rules as written. An infinite supply of Charges isn't worth -1/4' date=' never mind -4. (IIRC, there haven't been a googleplex of [i']seconds[/i] since the Big Bang!) Remember the metarule for all Limitations (5ER, pg. 280): A Limitation that doesn't limit the character isn't worth any bonus! As I said before, the basic form of the abuse doesn't require any limitations at all. Merely that you purchase the power as is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? You have a few adventures between game sessions. Your out of your 256 charges. They never recover. What now? EDIT: That was me being Mr. Too Clever for His Own Good GM Man. I couldn't resist. A googolplex is such a big number that if you used 10 charges every segment you'd still have some left when the sun burns out. In fact I remember it was Carl Sagan's Cosmos (remember that?) that introduced me to the googol and the googolplex. I remember him saying that you couldn't write out a googolplex longhand: even if you turned the entire universe into paper and ink there wouldn't be enough for all the zeroes. It is (just) possible we're getting a bit silly talking about such big numbers. Maybe. :whistle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? ...and if he'd used modern computers and a Windows operating system to run the armour systems, it would be a lot longer than that. An awful lot longer. Then you'd get the thing hanging when you try to do something complicated, like open the calculator or the media player, that could be a bit embarassing, just starting at this little hour glass on your HUD, and... ...sorry, what were we talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? As I said before' date=' that would be the logical interpretation. However, that is not the official interpretation as voiced by Steve Long.[/quote'] Yeah, yeah. I know. That's why I said, "...no matter who...." To that I say, tough sh**! We're all human. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? ...and if he'd used modern computers and a Windows operating system to run the armour systems, it would be a lot longer than that. An awful lot longer. Then you'd get the thing hanging when you try to do something complicated, like open the calculator or the media player, that could be a bit embarassing, just starting at this little hour glass on your HUD, and... ...sorry, what were we talking about? Cheetos? Oh. Yeah. Linux in our power armor. Definitely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? As I said before' date=' the basic form of the abuse doesn't require any limitations at all. Merely that you purchase the power as is.[/quote']Nope. There is no functional difference between a googleplex of Charges and 0 END. However, trying to buy X10 END on a googleplex of Charges still runs afoul of the metarule because it does not limit the character and hence is worth -0. Any GM stupid enough to permit that needs to be immediately castrated and burned at the stake so he won't breed and lower Earth's collective IQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break? A googolplex is such a big number that if you used 10 charges every segment you'd still have some left when the sun burns out. In fact I remember it was Carl Sagan's Cosmos (remember that?) that introduced me to the googol and the googolplex. I remember him saying that you couldn't write out a googolplex longhand: even if you turned the entire universe into paper and ink there wouldn't be enough for all the zeroes. It is (just) possible we're getting a bit silly talking about such big numbers. Maybe. :whistle Yep, yep, and yep. We're getting pretty goofy, but whatever. LOL. "Whatever! Flame on!" Who said that? I need to go find that GIF. That was great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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