help! how do I build the super sniper?

[bloomann]

The character is a super sniper, I want him to be able to target with his rifle from miles away. How do I "build" it? and what is the distance a "real" sniper could shoot a target?

thanks

[Susano]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

The character is a super sniper, I want him to be able to target with his rifle from miles away. How do I "build" it? and what is the distance a "real" sniper could shoot a target?

thanks

 

2d6 RKA, No Range Modifier (+1/2), OAF (rifle; -1)

 

That's the quick and dirty method. Allows you to hit any target at any range. Of course, the range here is still Active Points x 5, or 225" (550 meters). To be able to hit a target " from miles away" away means you need to add in some levels of Increased Range. Each level increased the range by another x5, meaning you now figure Active Points x 25, or 1,125" (or 2250 meters). Since 1 meter is just about 1 yard, that's 2460 yards, or 1.4 miles. 2,400 yards is far beyond the maximum confirmed range of sniper kills in the Gulf War(s) which is around 1,800 meters with a .50 Barrett.

 

You need to be able to see the target, of course, so you need an OAF Telescopic sight as well. Also, to be realistic, you can add things like Extra Time (FUll Phase; -1/2), and some form of Concentrate (defined as setting and bracing).

[Zed-F]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

Of course, if he's a sniper that snipes supers, he might want a bit more than 2d6 RKA up his sleeve. Find Weakness might work, but remember you will need to by no range mods for that too. Other options include ranged martial arts, a bigger (supertech) gun, a bunch of CSLs to trade for damage, or (if the GM allows it, it can be unbalancing) the Deadly Blow talent.

[Fox1]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

and what is the distance a "real" sniper could shoot a target?

thanks

 

Typically snipers practice out to 1000 yards or so.

 

As best as I can recall, the record rifle shot still belongs to Billy Dixon at 1538 yards. I could however be wrong on a couple counts- first I just may not have recalled better, and second the simple fact is that better may be classified.

[Edsel]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

Here is what I found out about confirmed kill ranges. The source is here. I found this with a quick google search.

 

Texas Ranger Billy Dixon! Dixon shot an Indian warrior off his horse at the distance of seven eighths of a mile (1538 yards) on June 27, 1874 during the battle of Adobe Walls using a borrowed .50-90 Sharps. That long range shooting record stood until January 1967 when Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock, USMC set a new record. He made a confirmed kill shot at 2,500 yards (2,286 meters) near Duc Pho, Vietnam with a Browning M2 .50 HMG mounting an 8-power Unertl telescopic sight. GySgt Hathcock's record has been recently broken by a yet unnamed Canadian sniper in the Shah-i-Kot Valley of Afghanistan. This sniper from the 3rd Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry Battle Group made a confirmed kill chest shot at 2,400 meters against the driver of an enemy resupply truck. The primary rifle of the 3rd PPCLI is the McMillan Brothers .50 caliber Long Range Sniper Weapon (LRSW) that was only introduced to Canadian Infantry Battalions in April 2000.

[Susano]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

Looks like my initial numbers were about right.

 

Of course, as Edsel might remember, Sera talks about hitting targets 4,500 meters/yards out with her 12.5mm "rifle" in one sequence in HELLSING.

[Fox1]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

Here is what I found out about confirmed kill ranges. The source is here. I found this with a quick google search.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

I knew about the M2HB events, but I don't think putting a HMG in with a sniper rifles is a fair grouping.

 

The LRSW however certainly counts, although I wonder if he was aiming at the driver or truck

[Short Shot]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

um... nm....

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

incedentally, I like the idea of using an appropriately limited "No Range Mod" naked advantage to represent a snipers superior training, rather than putting the advantage on the weapon. Seems to sim the effect better...

Approprate limitations would probably include extra time (I'd use 1 turn) and Concentrate.

[Susano]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

Which means you buy a 3d6 RKA, +1 Increased STUN Multiple, one level of Increased Range, and you have the basic stats for rifle capable of hitting and harming supers at a range of 2,500 meters or more. In fact, since range is Active Points x5, said weapon has a range of 1,400 inches or 2,800 meters. Toss in No Range Modifier, and not only are you able to it targets at 1,968 inches (3,936 meters), but you take no Range Penalties to do so.

 

Now buy a scope that lets you see that far, and you're all set.

 

incedentally, I like the idea of using an appropriately limited "No Range Mod" naked advantage to represent a snipers superior training, rather than putting the advantage on the weapon. Seems to sim the effect better...

Approprate limitations would probably include extra time (I'd use 1 turn) and Concentrate.

 

I like this idea. Make sure you buy it up to around 3d6 RKA, so your super-sniper can use it on .50 rifles and the like.

[Fox1]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

Assuming you build the rifle right, there is no need to buy a naked advantage to match the best the world has seen.

 

 

For example, Billy Dixon's 1538 yard shot in HERO using my firearm constructions:

 

Range: 710"

Range Modifier: -16

Target DCV: 0 (i.e. total surprise).

 

 

Billy's numbers:

Set and Braced vs. target +1 OCV, +2 RMod

Sharps Big 50 Rifle: +1 OCV, +4 RMod

Tang Sight: +1 OCV, +2 RMod

 

Total Weapon/Maneuver mods:+3 OCV, + 8 RMod

 

DCV of target after Weapon/Maneuver Mods: 5

 

Billy Dixon's Dex: 11

Billy Dixon's Rifle Skill Levels: 5 (nearly best the world has seen)

 

Total OCV 9

 

Billy hits on a 15-

 

Which is likely over the top, I'm sure not even Billy would think he could have that high of a hit rate at such a range. Meaning you could drop 5 or 6 skill, Dex, or weapon modifiers and still end up about right.

 

 

Taking a naked No Range Mod is an ability FAR in excess of human.

[Susano]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

Taking a naked No Range Mod is an ability FAR in excess of human.

 

Yes, but he was asking about a "super-sniper" for a super hero world. So using scopes, Set, Brace, and rifles designed for long range targeting you can simulate real-world sniper stunts. But if you want to be a GODLIKE (as in the game) "hyper-sniper" or some sort of Punisher/action hero clone, use the Naked Advantage. Highly cinematic and makes for a great character schtick.

[Fox1]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

But if you want to be a GODLIKE (as in the game) "hyper-sniper" or some sort of Punisher/action hero clone' date=' use the Naked Advantage. Highly cinematic and makes for a great character schtick.[/quote']

 

I suppose. But if you're in a game where Skill +5 rifles isn't a schtick all by itself... well I guess you need to do what you need to do.

 

Btw, be sure to buy up the range limit on your rifle. You're going to easily exceed the 5"x Active Point range with such a concept.

[prestidigitator]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

Why the heck use No Range Modifier, especially a naked one? Just buy Range PSLs. They can potentially apply to all attacks, although for at least some of them you might want to buy them through the weapon and/or scope rather than directly for the character. Since the Range Penalty goes up with each doubling of distance, it doesn't take a whole heck of a lot.

 

For example, for the ~1500 m people are talking about, Range PSLs totalling +16 would completely negate the Range Penalty. I would submit that is a little extreme. Make it more like +8 total (from character and weapon), and you can hit someone at that distance as if a normal person were shooting a normal gun the length of a football field. A likely hit? No, but definitely a doable one.

 

For a heroic game, this makes a heck of a lot more sense than buying a naked Advantage. For a superheroic game (where you are likely to need a big attack anyway), it may just be cheaper; even the +16. Even if it's not, the naked Advantage has to be stared at a lot and specifically approved by a GM, whereas the Range PSLs are being used exactly for their intended purpose, without even any warning signs!

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

Honestly, there isn't much difference between lots of PSL's vs range and a "NO range mod" naked advantage... Except that the naked mod can be limited to define the effect better, and can be less prone to gm fiddling and conditional modifiers and the like. Mainly tho, I just like it because, tho harder to build, its a "cleaner" power to apply in-game, and for some characters seems to fit the feel (I was thinking of Alan Quartermaine in Leauge of Extraordinary Gentlemen when I posted the idea.)

[Fox1]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

Honestly' date=' there isn't much difference between lots of PSL's vs range and a "NO range mod" naked advantage... Except that the naked mod can be limited to define the effect better, and can be less prone to gm fiddling and conditional modifiers and the like. Mainly tho, I just like it because, tho harder to build, its a "cleaner" power to apply in-game, and for some characters seems to fit the feel (I was thinking of Alan Quartermaine in Leauge of Extraordinary Gentlemen when I posted the idea.)[/quote']

 

There's a huge difference that should matter to anyone.

 

The application of the skill levels are a) likely cheaper to achieve the desired result, and give you additional bonuses in close (such as aimed shots to specific body locations, overcoming dodge bonuses, etc) that are completely lost to No Range Modifier.

 

No one going for man-to-man effectiveness would pick No Range Mod over CSLs.

 

The only reason to select No Range Mod over CSLs is if one is up against a campaign limit on OCV. Even then, in practical terms the only reason to select No Range Mod over PSLs is to waste points. Realistic sniper rifles won't reach far enough to ever make No Range Mod pay for itself unless you're shooting a pop gun.

[prestidigitator]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

There's a huge difference that should matter to anyone.

 

The application of the skill levels are a) likely cheaper to achieve the desired result, and give you additional bonuses in close (such as aimed shots to specific body locations, overcoming dodge bonuses, etc) that are completely lost to No Range Modifier.

 

No one going for man-to-man effectiveness would pick No Range Mod over CSLs.

 

The only reason to select No Range Mod over CSLs is if one is up against a campaign limit on OCV. Even then, in practical terms the only reason to select No Range Mod over PSLs is to waste points. Realistic sniper rifles won't reach far enough to ever make No Range Mod pay for itself unless you're shooting a pop gun.

Well, he is right that there isn't much difference between buying No Range Modifier and buying enough Range PSLs to cover the entire range of the weapon--at least mechanically. I'm not sure why he thinks the Naked Advantage is, "cleaner," to apply in game, unless he means you don't have to count range doublings (I wouldn't call this, "cleaner;" I would just call it, "easier"). Situational penalties could certainly apply whichever one you used.

 

I think the main differences are not mechanical ones, however. The main differences are:

1. The PSLs are a very clear, legal, and obvious build that can apply to as many attacks as their level indicates, whereas the Naked Advantage should be scrutinized closely by a GM.
   
2. The PSLs are easily split up between the character and the weapon, but this cannot be done (certainly not cleanly) with the Advantage. Especially in a heroic game, this makes a lot of sense.
   
3. You can make the attack easier but not certain with the PSLs. IOW, you can decrease the penalty rather than eliminating it. That sounds like a more appropriate thing to do to me, though that is up to the player and maybe the GM, of course.

[Susano]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

The application of the skill levels are a) likely cheaper to achieve the desired result' date=' and give you additional bonuses in close (such as aimed shots to specific body locations, overcoming dodge bonuses, etc) that are completely lost to No Range Modifier.[/quote']

 

Depends on how you buy the Skill Levels. Range Skill Levels will only affect range, and have no effect on aimed shots and the like. Penalty Skill Levels can help with aimed shots, but have no effect on Range Modifiers. Raw Combat Skill Levels with firearms will work, but may make the character too good OCV-wise.

 

A Naked "No Range Modifier" Advantage has one nice feature -- especially if bought with no limitations -- the character can basically hit anything he can see with any weapon up to the limits of the Advantage and the weapon's range. Thus he never needs to count hexes or assign levels. Which speeds up combat that little bit. Might not be cost effective or efficient, but it is simpler.

 

In a more realistic DC or military game, CSLs would be the way to go, since you probably want that level of detail in skill and such. But if you're playing certain forms of Western Hero, Pulp, or even Fantasy, I can see buying the Advantage.

[Fox1]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

Depends on how you buy the Skill Levels.

 

No it doesn't, I was speaking of straight up skill levels at that point in the post, I covered Range Skill levels later.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

No it doesn't' date=' I was speaking of straight up skill levels at that point in the post, I covered Range Skill levels later.[/quote']

Yeah..I got it...you like CSL's

You don't like naked modifier superskills

I do.

You would balk at a character with a naked "No Range Mod" , extra time, concentrate 0 DCV

I would balk at a character with +16 range PSL's

We obviously play differently.

And my idea was based off the wording of the thread

specifically "super sniper" (my emphasis)

And by cleaner, yes, I mean not having to calculate range mods.

 

Its all down to personal preference.

[Agent X]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

Yeah..I got it...you like CSL's

You don't like naked modifier superskills

I do.

You would balk at a character with a naked "No Range Mod" , extra time, concentrate 0 DCV

I would balk at a character with +16 range PSL's

We obviously play differently.

And my idea was based off the wording of the thread

specifically "super sniper" (my emphasis)

And by cleaner, yes, I mean not having to calculate range mods.

 

Its all down to personal preference.

I vote for ease of play on this one too.

[Fox1]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

I would balk at a character with +16 range PSL's

.

 

Don't overstate. You don't need 16 PSLs to be a world class sniper. Look back to my example.

 

All you need is a character total OCV of 9 to be well above the best the world has seen. The rifle, scope, and set/brace does the rest.

 

Given a Dex of 18, 3 Combat Skill Levels- Rifle, and all of another +3 PSL- Range and you're better than anything that has walked the earth by more than four times.

 

And not only done it cheaper, you'd be a more effective character to boot.

 

 

And by cleaner, yes, I mean not having to calculate range mods.

 

If you want to waste points to avoid a little addition that wouldn't even be neccessary until you exceeded 256", go right ahead.

[Sean Waters]

Zen and the super sniper

 

The character is a super sniper, I want him to be able to target with his rifle from miles away. How do I "build" it? and what is the distance a "real" sniper could shoot a target?

thanks

 

I think you have enough technical answers: time for a philosophical one, or rather a question:

 

Why would you want to?

 

I mean it is going to be a pretty specialised campaign where you get to shoot targets from miles away as a PC. Might be OK for a solo game, but I can't see the character fitting in with a group in most cases.

 

If it is a villain, I tend to use the lazyman approach: he just CAN, yeah?

 

If he's a PC, I tend to also use the lazyman approach: he just CAN'T, yeah? (Or he can if he wants to build it but I'll make it clear he'll hardly ever have the opportunity in fact).

 

With decent equipment you can do some pretty amazing shots: the first time I every shot a gun I popped off a dozen or more shots through a 5cm circle because the gun had a decent sight, some sort of stabiliser thing and so on. Trust me, it had nothing at all to do with my skill!

 

If you want to build a character who can pick up any weapon and be good at range I'd buy PSLs(ranged) and/or CSLs with rifles: I am just not keen on unnecessary naked advantages, but that is just me.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

Don't overstate. You don't need 16 PSLs to be a world class sniper. Look back to my example.

 

All you need is a character total OCV of 9 to be well above the best the world has seen. The rifle, scope, and set/brace does the rest.

 

Given a Dex of 18, 3 Combat Skill Levels- Rifle, and all of another +3 PSL- Range and you're better than anything that has walked the earth by more than four times.

 

And not only done it cheaper, you'd be a more effective character to boot.

 

If you want to waste points to avoid a little addition that wouldn't even be neccessary until you exceeded 256", go right ahead.

 

I am considering your example, and the situation you layed out. and for a Heroic level game, I tend to agree...

Thos for a world class sniper, you have to factor in a few more bits...

Targets expecting trouble (like moving on patrol in a warzone) are usually considered 1/2 DCV, not 0. Not saying this is always the case, but your combat sniper should take this into consideration. He should also have additionnal CSL's or PSL's to allow him to overcome cover penalties and place his shot. He's not likely to acheive a 1 shot kill if he puts that .50 cal slug into his targets hand.

And he'll need more levels if you want him to be able to pull off the really spiffy shots with inferior equipment.

My way is a way to build, once again, a sniper "Superskill". its in the same category as "Vanishing Teleport" or "Precognition RSR Tactics" Its a trick you give a character like Deathstroke, who should be able to lift a rifle off a mook he just pasted, take careful aim, and begin counter sniping all the rooftop SWAT members surrounding his position. Its not an ability for a normal, even hioghly skilled guy. Its for a super, and at that level, I like my build better than a host of additional levels, because a character like this, at least in my games, will already have fairly disgusting amounts of levels.

[Fox1]

Re: help! how do I build the super sniper?

 

Targets expecting trouble (like moving on patrol in a warzone) are usually considered 1/2 DCV' date=' not 0..[/quote']

 

You have a strange idea of what a sniper is. They're not action hero guy, they're the guy who will wait hours for the DCV 0 shot to come around.

 

He should also have additionnal CSL's or PSL's to allow him to overcome cover penalties and place his shot.

 

The first one provided could have placed a chest hit at 1538 yards with a 13 or less. If he had a high powered scope instead of the tang site, he could have placed the chest shot with 16-.

 

The one I just suggested would have had 16- and a 19- respectively.

 

 

 

 

Its not an ability for a normal, even hioghly skilled guy. Its for a super, and at that level, I like my build better than a host of additional levels, because a character like this, at least in my games, will already have fairly disgusting amounts of levels.

 

Actually as I keep pointing out, it's an ineffective build. It has no bonuses, so you'll still need to buy CSLs and PSL to place shots and have a solid to hit number, and then you have to buy No Range on Top of it- not to mention in effect paying double if you have the character actually buy a real sniper rifle & scope with all it's points spent in Range PSLs.

 

But you go ahead, you seem set on the matter and its your game. I just consider it yet another example of the tendency in hero towards cure tricks instead of solid construction.