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This is mostly for my friends, they have said that if you buy a 10pt adder(additional class of minds) for any mental power you can affect all things...not just minds...for instance we were playing a fantasy campaign and we were trying to find some skeletons that were near by, well someone had mind scan and asked if he could use it...they said its only for one class of minds(Human usually)...but he said that he purchased a 10pt adder and could effect "all" classes...they then agreed and said he could even mind scan a cart as a joke...however when i had said that if the skeletons were automatons they were immune becuase they had no mind...and apparently they all agreed i was wrong and again unjokingly said he could mind scan carts, undead, creatures, etc...

 

What do you think? can you affect things without minds even carts?

 

After reading mental powers pg 117 of 5ER...

 

"The basic classes include Human, Animal, Machine(I get this one...manipulating computers and things as such as a electronic control powers), and Alien; the GM can add other classes or alter these as he sees fit."

 

I dont really see how things can be mind scaned or controlled by the mind unless through telekinesis...like moving the cart...but Mind Scan come on...

 

And the GM, doesnt know every rule (Guildline) but I think they are taking advantage over him...and I know this sounds rules lawyery, but its something that really tweaks me when an unknowledgeable GM is abused...it ruins it for everyone else.

 

Please HELP me understand what all minds* can me scaned/controlled/whatever....

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Guest Black Lotus

Re: Mental Powers

 

You have to buy an adder for each additional class of minds (i.e., Alien, Animal, etcetera; the default is Human [although you may specify a different default when bying the Power]). What your friends said is not true.

 

You can MIND SCAN all minds in an area, regardless of mind type (but restrictions apply, see that Power's description), but that's it. You have to purchase an adder for each specific class of mind you affect with any other Mental Power.

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Re: Mental Powers

 

Hmmm...should I buy 12d6 Mind Control, with a +30 Adder to affect three other classes of mind for 90 points, and pay 9 END per shot, or a Multipower with four ultra slots of Mind Control, one defaulting to each class of minds, for 84 points, and pay 6 END per shot?

 

And what should a character pay for BEING of a different class of mind than Human?

 

I don't like the "classes of mind" approach, as you may have guessed. The ability to affect Alien minds is not worth the same as the ability to affect Human minds when virtually everyone will be Human by default. And the ability to define a character as "alien" and thus render him immune to virtually all mental powers in the game also strikes me as less than reasonable. But then, I dislike builds that are only legal for NPC's.

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Guest Black Lotus

Re: Mental Powers

 

And what should a character pay for BEING of a different class of mind than Human?

 

Nothing. The rulebook states that a character begins with the default mind class of his own species. In addition, the book goes on to mention that you may alter the default class when first buying the Power.

 

In other words, a Human can buy Mental Powers that only affect Animals, and not other humans, to simulate, say, a magical ranger or dryad.

 

That's why it is GOOD to have the classes.

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Re: Mental Powers

 

here's my ideas on the issue.

 

I'm sure you could mind scan for zombies (if you allow undead as a class of mind), but you wouldn't hit anything because they don't have minds. However, you would pick up a Vampire, or Lich etc. because they are sentient undead. A cart has no mind, therefore can not be effected by mental powers (except TK).

 

Next up, the ability to effect all classes of minds should be more than +10.

 

Third, I usually abolish the use of "alien" as a class of mind if it's a sci fi game where the PCs can be aliens (and not just like war of the worlds or something), and change it to "sentient minds".

 

Next up. The "Human Class of mind" what does it take to not be a "human" mind?

 

well according to p117 of the Hero book, your character (or at least his free will).

 

See, this is because stuff like andriods, or aliens or vampires, "[that are] smart enough and self-willed enough to function like a human being, he should probably be effected by both the human and [other class of mind] (for which he may be allowed to take a physical limitation)

 

that's my stance

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Re: Mental Powers

 

Nothing. The rulebook states that a character begins with the default mind class of his own species. In addition' date=' the book goes on to mention that you may alter the default class when first buying the Power.[/quote']

 

As I recall, either book or FAQ suggests that PC's always have the Human class of minds, even if they are aliens or robots.

 

In other words, a Human can buy Mental Powers that only affect Animals, and not other humans, to simulate, say, a magical ranger or dryad.

 

That's why it is GOOD to have the classes.

 

This could be (and was, occasionally) accomplished just as easily by allowing mental powers to work against all "classes" of minds, and receiving a limitation if your mental powers only affected a speicific type of mind. Your Ranger's mind control then gets a limitation for "only animals", but the fact my character is an alien does not cjhange the ability of most mental powers to affect him.

 

And what's the dividing line between "human" and "alien". Are drarves and elves in a fantasy game "human" or "alien"? If there are numerous types of aliens, why does one class affect all of them? Wouldn't two alien species also be alien to one another? Is an alien animal affected as Animal class, Alien class, or do you need both classes? None of the three options seem overly satisfactory.

 

Does "Machine class" make sense? Most machines lack Ego anyway, so mental powers fail by default. Does Mechanon automatically have a machine-class mind, making him unaffected by most mental powers? Can my sentient robot character get the same benefit at no point cost? If so, that seems a pretty big advantage. If not, it's a fairly major inconsistency.

 

We would need some modifier for mental powers applied to electronics, but then we should have some rules for reading the mind of a hard drive, since most Personal Computers lack the Ego stat.

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Guest Black Lotus

Re: Mental Powers

 

As I recall' date=' either book or FAQ suggests that PC's always have the Human class of minds, even if they are aliens or robots.[/quote']

 

Sigh. I meant the character may start with the ability to affect a MENTAL POWER class of any type he wants, for example, Human can start with Human, or he can start with Alien. Not the character's MIND, the classes of minds on which he can use his mental powers. Of COURSE he has to take the physical brain or nervous system of his species.

 

This could be (and was' date=' occasionally) accomplished just as easily by allowing mental powers to work against all "classes" of minds, and receiving a limitation if your mental powers only affected a speicific type of mind. Your Ranger's mind control then gets a limitation for "only animals", but the fact my character is an alien does not cjhange the ability of most mental powers to affect him.[/quote']

 

Kind of the way "Only vs. SFX" works, and therefore I'm glad it's how it is now. I mean, seriously now. Better to start small and work your way up in this kind of situation.

 

And what's the dividing line between "human" and "alien". Are drarves and elves in a fantasy game "human" or "alien"? If there are numerous types of aliens' date=' why does one class affect all of them? Wouldn't two alien species also be alien to one another? Is an alien animal affected as Animal class, Alien class, or do you need both classes? None of the three options seem overly satisfactory.[/quote']

 

That's for the GM to decide. And it's really not hard. I did it for Fallout -- and I don't even use Mental Powers as part of that campaign setting. In a Fantasy setting -- if you need me to tell you this, which I really don't think you do, you're obviously smart -- Human changes to Humanoid. Maybe Faerie might be separate -- a "Fey" type. Alien is demons, outer space creatures totally alien to our understanding. Animal covers, well, all dumb sentient animals. And so on. It's not hard.

 

It's fairly easy. Pick some fair and decent categories and run with them.

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Re: Mental Powers

 

Sigh. I meant the character may start with the ability to affect a MENTAL POWER class of any type he wants' date=' for example, Human can start with Human, or he can start with Alien. Not the character's MIND, the classes of minds on which he can use his mental powers. Of COURSE he has to take the physical brain or nervous system of his species.[/quote']

 

So by making my character Alien, I'm immune to 90% of the mental powers in the game, an issue which you seem reluctant to address. This came up with a recent Champions character of my own, where I had to say "Alien though the character is, I expect my character to be affected by mental powers the same as any other player character".

 

Alien is demons' date=' outer space creatures totally [i']alien[/i] to our understanding. Animal covers, well, all dumb sentient animals. And so on. It's not hard.

 

It's arbitrary. Demons and Angels are both alien to humans. But, since they are Alien class of minds, any mental power that can affect one can also affect the other. Aren't they also alien to each other?

 

Fantasy? Is a talking cat human class? It talks like a human, so there must be some rationale to it being treated like one for mental attacks. But it's still a cat - it chases mice and goes crazy for catnip. Hmmm...the feline mindset is foreign to humans - doesn't that make it alien, after a fashion?

 

It's fairly easy. Pick some fair and decent categories and run with them.

 

The choice of categories materially changes the value of mental powers. If we decide "humanoid" is a class, mental poiwers are considerably more useful than if we decide each of several races is a class unto itself.

 

"Animal" vs "Human" seems a more clear deliniation, but which power is more valuable? Depends. If we're in a primarily urban setting, the ability to control animals is a lot less valuable than if we're exploring the wilderness. Yet animals still exist in the city - the ability is less valuable, not valueless.

 

My objection to the structure of these rules (and it is very new - only introduced in 4e Ultimate Mentalist), is that the classification of various characters in these categories is arbitrary.

 

How many GM's out there rule that Mechanon lacks a human-class mind? What about Firewing - is he immune to the bilities of most mentalists? If they are, a player character Vision or Captain Mar-Vell clone should be as well. If they are not, what qualifies as machine or alien enough to have this class of minds?

 

You allude to the SFX question, and that's largely what this is. Mind Control - Aliens Only is deemed, by the ground rules, to be precisely as useful as Mind COntrol - Animlas only and Mind Control - Humans only. Is that reasonable?

 

A 12d6 energy blast affects all classes of minds. To affect all classes of minds, the same AP buys 6d6 mind control or 3d6 ego blast. Reasonable?

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Re: Mental Powers

 

So by making my character Alien, I'm immune to 90% of the mental powers in the game, an issue which you seem reluctant to address. This came up with a recent Champions character of my own, where I had to say "Alien though the character is, I expect my character to be affected by mental powers the same as any other player character".

 

 

 

It's arbitrary.

 

It's actually not as bad as it looks given that as GM you can define your own classes of minds.

 

I use the following myself:

 

  • Living Sentient Creatures including artificial life forms with biological based minds
  • Animal level minds
  • Machine minds
  • Things that man was not meant to know

 

All PCs must be members of the first group.

 

If you split things up more than that... well you caused you own problems (it would be genre in some settings, but genre will generally handle the problem on its own).

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Guest Black Lotus

Re: Mental Powers

 

So by making my character Alien' date=' I'm immune to 90% of the mental powers in the game, an issue which you seem reluctant to address. This came up with a recent Champions character of my own, where I had to say "Alien though the character is, I expect my character to be affected by mental powers the same as any other player character".[/quote']

 

I'll address it right here. Why tear down and rebuild the entire system to fix one special case? Clearly, your Alien was a special case. Instead of just saying something peevish and mundane like, "Oh well, he's affected by Human Mental Powers because it's necessary to balance the campaign," be creative and have fun with it. Instead, come up with a background reason why your Alien is unique: "Trognazz has been around humans for many years, learning their language and being immersed in their culture. As a result, he has learned to think more like a human. This helps him relate to humans better, but one unfortunate side-effect is that Trognazz can also be affected by Human-class Mental Powers."

 

It's arbitrary. Demons and Angels are both alien to humans. But' date=' since they are Alien class of minds, any mental power that can affect one can also affect the other. Aren't they also alien to each other?[/quote']

 

It is arbitrary, but as the book says, the GM should come up with additional mental classes to fit the needs of his campaign. Therefore, if there are no actual extraplanetary creatures in the campaign, he can drop "Alien" as a mental class altogether and create two new classes, "Celestial" and "Infernal", for example.

 

Fantasy? Is a talking cat human class? It talks like a human' date=' so there must be some rationale to it being treated like one for mental attacks. But it's still a cat - it chases mice and goes crazy for catnip. Hmmm...the feline mindset is foreign to humans - doesn't that make it alien, after a fashion?[/quote']

 

It's left to the GM's judgement to decide under what category a particular creature falls, so I can hardly answer this question. In the case of a talking cat, I'd rule it as an Animal class, since it still lives life from the viewpoint of a cat, as you describe.

 

The choice of categories materially changes the value of mental powers. If we decide "humanoid" is a class' date=' mental poiwers are considerably more useful than if we decide each of several races is a class unto itself.[/quote']

 

Again, this is up to the judgement of individual GMs.

 

"Animal" vs "Human" seems a more clear deliniation' date=' but which power is more valuable? Depends. If we're in a primarily urban setting, the ability to control animals is a lot less valuable than if we're exploring the wilderness. Yet animals still exist in the city - the ability is less valuable, not valueless.[/quote']

 

The Power to affect any mind is valuable, and nitpicking the price of a particular mental class the same way we do with "Only vs. SFX' Limitations is taking too narrow of a view.

 

My objection to the structure of these rules (and it is very new - only introduced in 4e Ultimate Mentalist)' date=' is that the classification of various characters in these categories is arbitrary.[/quote']

 

Actually, it's not. Ultimately, a GM can completely restructure all of the categories. He doesn't have to use any of the ones suggested by the book.

 

How many GM's out there rule that Mechanon lacks a human-class mind? What about Firewing - is he immune to the bilities of most mentalists? If they are' date=' a player character Vision or Captain Mar-Vell clone should be as well. If they are not, what qualifies as machine or alien enough to have this class of minds?[/quote']

 

Again, that is up to the GM. However, if a player character knows Mechanon has a class of mind other than Human, and if that player character wants to fight Mechanon someday, mayhap he should spend points to buy the adder for Mechanon's mental class.

 

You allude to the SFX question, and that's largely what this is. Mind Control - Aliens Only is deemed, by the ground rules, to be precisely as useful as Mind COntrol - Animlas only and Mind Control - Humans only. Is that reasonable?

 

A 12d6 energy blast affects all classes of minds. To affect all classes of minds, the same AP buys 6d6 mind control or 3d6 ego blast. Reasonable?

 

It is reasonable to have different mental classes because it makes common sense. The logic behind it is: two creatures who think very differently cannot be affected by the same type of mental Power, because their ways of thinking are so different that they cannot even imagine what it is like to be in that other creature's shoes.

 

Also, Mind Control is potentially a wee bit more useful than Energy Blast and far more versatile within its mental class -- say, if you have Animal mental class, and call a pack of wolves from the forest (Heroic campaign), or if you call a horse to ride upon, or a hawk to spy on your enemies from afar, etc.

 

Anyway! I almost never use Mentalist abilities in my campaigns, so everything I just spent 30 minutes carefully considering and writing has been for your benefit, not mine. I hope it helped.

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Re: Mental Powers

 

I'll address it right here. Why tear down and rebuild the entire system to fix one special case? Clearly' date=' your Alien was a special case.[/quote']

 

An alien player character is a "special case"? Let's go off the top of my head here:

 

- Superman

- Martian Manhunter

- Starfox

- Captain Mar-Vell

- Starfire

- Most members of the Legion of Super Heroes

- the Inhumans

- Atlanteans (DC's and Marvel's, since they are quite different)

- Guy Gardner (human/alien crossbreed)

- Valor

- the Omega Men

- Most Green Lanterns

- the Silver Surfer (and most other heralds of Galactus)

- Deathbird and Warcry

- Ms. Marvel/Warbird (human altered to be part-Kree)

- the Teen Titans of a few years back (humans infused with alien DNA)

- Hawkman (Katar Hol)

 

The list of comic book characters who are partially or fully alien goes on forever. In Hero, Ironclad is a sample charfacter who should be suitable for use as a PC. Alien class or human class?

 

Machine-class? Several potential PC's in that class as well.

 

- Machine Man

- The Vision

- Indigo (from the Outsiders)

- Donald Pierce (and any number of other cyborg characters) have mental implants

- the Metal Men

 

What about the Kree Sentry, which is an alien robot?

 

 

Instead of just saying something peevish and mundane like' date=' "Oh well, he's affected by Human Mental Powers because it's necessary to balance the campaign," be creative and have fun with it. Instead, come up with a background reason why your Alien is unique: "Trognazz has been around humans for many years, learning their language and being immersed in their culture. As a result, he has learned to think more like a human. This helps him relate to humans better, but one unfortunate side-effect is that Trognazz can also be affected by Human-class Mental Powers."[/quote']

 

Which is fine if that's the character. Some characters are alien. It is poart of their background. Mine is not, and will never be, human. This is part of the character.

 

It is arbitrary' date=' but as the book says, the GM should come up with additional mental classes to fit the needs of his campaign. Therefore, if there are no actual extraplanetary creatures in the campaign, he can drop "Alien" as a mental class altogether and create two new classes, "Celestial" and "Infernal", for example.[/quote']

 

And now we need a 20 point adder for mental spells which affect extra-planar beings. And are Celestial and Infernal the only types? What about Elementals, for example?

 

It's left to the GM's judgement to decide under what category a particular creature falls' date=' so I can hardly answer this question. In the case of a talking cat, I'd rule it as an Animal class, since it still lives life from the viewpoint of a cat, as you describe.[/quote']

 

Hmmm...makes a good follower in a game where mental poweres are common, since it would be immune to many mentalists' powers.

 

The Power to affect any mind is valuable' date=' and nitpicking the price of a particular mental class the same way we do with "Only vs. SFX' Limitations is taking too narrow of a view.[/quote']

 

Is a character who can affect all humanoids, but no aliens, as powerful as a character who can affect all aliens, but no humanoids? And note that this is never a problem for the NPC's, since player characters are generally forced to be of human-class mind.

 

Again' date=' that is up to the GM.[/quote']

 

Every decision of which official rules to use and not use is up to the GM. If we had no "classes of mind" rules, GM's could simply purchase "Alien/Animal/Machine Mind" for the characters he considers it appropriate for, purchasing mental defense and/or mental damage reduction. The GM could also decide to eliminate classes of minds, eliminate mental powers altogether or select a different system. "The GM can change it" doesn't remove the underlying issue of the implications of the default rules.

 

However' date=' if a player character knows Mechanon has a class of mind other than Human, and if that player character wants to fight Mechanon someday, mayhap he should spend points to buy the adder for Mechanon's mental class.[/quote']

 

How would the player "know" that, when it's entirely a GM decision? And how does a telepath "practice" to be able to affect a machine-class mind? The theory that a player character who wants a certain ability can just pick it up always bugs me. Batman could benefit greatly from X-Ray Vision and Telepathy, but I don't see him learning these skills any time soon, despite knowing possesors of both abilities very well.

 

It is reasonable to have different mental classes because it makes common sense. The logic behind it is: two creatures who think very differently cannot be affected by the same type of mental Power' date=' because their ways of thinking are so different that they cannot even imagine what it is like to be in that other creature's shoes.[/quote']

 

It makes logical sense that a person who can survive in the Sun would not be affected by Blowtorch's flamethrower. Yet the life support purchased by that character affords him no defense form Blowtorch's flamethrower.

 

It makes game sense that characters who want an ability which provides them with an advantage over other characters pay p[oints for the privilege. The ability to survive in the sun required purchase of life support, not merely definition of the character as "dwelling in the sun".

 

Also' date=' Mind Control is potentially a wee bit more useful than Energy Blast and far more versatile within its mental class -- say, if you have Animal mental class, and call a pack of wolves from the forest (Heroic campaign), or if you call a horse to ride upon, or a hawk to spy on your enemies from afar, etc.[/quote]

 

This is debateable. I've seen numerous threads on these boards discussing the weakness, overal, of mental powers due to high levels of required effect and breakout rolls. By the way, how did Animal Class mind control allow you to summon a pack of wolves from the forest? You need to have them in line of sight to control them, remember? One issue your point makes very clear is that the value of "animal class" mind control depends greatly on the genre. Yet the cost is the same as Human Class mind control.

 

Is mind control useful and versatile? Absolutely. Is it more versatile than an energy blast? Good question. An energy blast can:

 

- affect automotons

 

- break oneself, or one's comrades, out of an entangle

 

- break down a barrier, such as a brick wall or a force wall

 

- inflict knowckback (even if the target is invulnerable to the EB itself)

 

- fire into darkness, or while blinded, with a chance (abeit reduced) of hitting and inflicting some damage (MC requires a successful mind scan first, assuming the character has mind scan)

 

Mind control cannot do any of these things. It is, however, considerably more versatile in its potential effects, and has far more out of combat uses.

 

Anyway! I almost never use Mentalist abilities in my campaigns' date=' so everything I just spent 30 minutes carefully considering and writing has been for your benefit, not mine. I hope it helped.[/quote']

 

I see them as uncommon in most games I run and play in (primarily Supers and Fantasy). My experience is that they are useful, but not crushingly so, and that the added restriction of "classes of mind" is either ignored or would serve only to water down the mentalist.

 

Anyone run a lot of mentalist-centric campaigns and have any experiences they'd like to share?

 

Mind you, classes of mind could actually help out a mentalist. "My Telepathy failed. The General either has vast mental reserves, or he is not human." This would make an excellent Skrull/Durlan Detector, and a fine test of who's been replaced by a robot duplicate.

 

Nasty combo potential - make sure your Desolid character is a machine (like the Vision) or an alien - now that vulnerability to mental attacks is far less likely to be an issue. And you didn't have to pay 40 points or 4 END per phase to be immune to those attacks!

 

Black Lotus, your comments about GM customization here are, in my view, dead on accurate. This is the kind of rule that could add considerable flavour to certain campaigns. But that kind of rule, in my opinion, should be optional, not default. To me, it belongs in an "options" book (such as the Ultimate Mentalist), with considerable space to discuss the ramifications of classes of minds, and the options for their utilization (for example, they could move difficulty up the chart rather than making targets immune, possibly with adders to remove that, making them less of an all or nothing arbitrary thing). It doesn't belong in the core rules, where such space is not available and would be excessive anyway.

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Re: Mental Powers

 

It's actually not as bad as it looks given that as GM you can define your own classes of minds.

 

I use the following myself:

 

  • Living Sentient Creatures including artificial life forms with biological based minds
  • Animal level minds
  • Machine minds
  • Things that man was not meant to know

 

All PCs must be members of the first group.

 

The list is fine, but the "NPC's only" rule always bothers me. It's appropriate in some genres, of course. But why can't a robot (not a biologically based mind) be a valid player character in Champions. The Vision has always been written as set off from humanity, as has the Martian Manhunter. Logically, neither would be human-class minds and, since only human-class minds are valid PC's, you can't play them.

 

Now, your list expands "human class minds" to likely allow both those examples. So, the end result is that we get a group of characters (let's say Slug and his minions, falling into the last camp) which gets a default "invulnerability to standard mental powers" power for free.

 

Does 5e Slug have mental powers? Did he buy the "human class" adders?

 

[Come to think of it, a PC and a prominent NPC in my Champions game have their powers derived from the Elder Worm. I guess they should have alien-class mind issues...certainly weakens the one character's telepathy and ego blast...]

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Re: Mental Powers

 

We use the same basic 4 classes that Fox1 uses [called Sentient, Animal, Machine, Exotic]. What our GM does is apply penalties within those classes:

 

Human sentient: -0

Human-like sentient: -1 ecv

Non-human-like sentient: -2 ecv

Exotic sentient: -3 ecv

 

So if a human has the Sentient class as the base class they can use it on other humans at no penalty, a persied at -1, insectoid at -2, and someone like Mechanon or an energy-based alien at -3.

 

The player defines the base class when purchased. The default is not sentient.

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Re: Mental Powers

 

I tend to think of the divisions as:

 

Human-like minds

Animal minds

Machines

Truly Alien minds

 

Human-like minds would include most human-designed "true AIs" (after all, their brains are designed to work like a human's and most aliens that can easily fit into human society. It would also likely super-intelligent animals. In other words, if you think like a human, you have a "human-like" mind. In comic book terms, Superman, the Vision, and Gorilla Grodd would all be considered to have "human-like" minds.

 

Truly Alien-like minds would be those minds that don't work like anything that a human understands. Note that AIs built by such races would also be considered to be "truly alien".

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Re: Mental Powers

 

I tend to think of the divisions as:

 

Human-like minds

Animal minds

Machines

Truly Alien minds

 

Human-like minds would include most human-designed "true AIs" (after all, their brains are designed to work like a human's and most aliens that can easily fit into human society. It would also likely super-intelligent animals. In other words, if you think like a human, you have a "human-like" mind. In comic book terms, Superman, the Vision, and Gorilla Grodd would all be considered to have "human-like" minds.

 

Truly Alien-like minds would be those minds that don't work like anything that a human understands. Note that AIs built by such races would also be considered to be "truly alien".

 

This makes both "alien" and "machine" pretty rare, calling the value of these two defaults, or adders, into question. Wouldn't it be just as easy to eliminate clases of minds (with the possible exception of "machine", to be used for non-AI electronics with some variant rules since they lack Ego), and just buy the truly "alien" mind Mental Defense or Mental Damage Reduction to set out its truly alien mind? This has the added advantage, to me, of allowing PC's to have a "different class of mind" if they wish to pay the points to do so.

 

The whole "class of minds" issue (with the exception, again, of needing a power to affect non-sentient machines) seems to breach the usual "reason from effect" maxim.

 

If your character has an "alien mind", what does that mean? Maybe it means he doesn't understand humans. Sounds like a disadvantage (perehaps physical, perhaps psychological, perhaps both) to me. Maybe it mnakes him immune, or near-immune, to mental powers. Damage Reduction, Mental Defense, etc. are used to achieve this effect.

 

The differentiations remain arbitrary, regardless of how one draws the line. Do the minds of the dead work in any way like the living understand? If yes, they have to pay points to be resistant to mental attacks from the living. If no, they get immunity for free.

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Re: Mental Powers

 

Black Lotus' date=' your comments about GM customization here are, in my view, dead on accurate. This is the kind of rule that could add considerable flavour to certain campaigns. But that kind of rule, in my opinion, should be optional, not default. To me, it belongs in an "options" book (such as the Ultimate Mentalist), with considerable space to discuss the ramifications of classes of minds, and the options for their utilization (for example, they could move difficulty up the chart rather than making targets immune, possibly with adders to remove that, making them less of an all or nothing arbitrary thing). It doesn't belong in the core rules, where such space is not available and would be excessive anyway.[/quote']

 

I disagree... I like the classes of mind rule and like that it is the default. There are only a few genres where it shouldn't apply or really needs different rules (such as Champions). Nearly every other genre can use it just fine, or with small adjustments to the default classes (like Star Hero's Mamilian, Reptilian, etc of sentient classes). Even in champions, you could keep it as is, and allow a Perk/Talent if character want to be from a different class, or just make sure that there are enough of each class active in the game that it automatically balances out (like in Star Hero and most Fantasy Hero games).

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Re: Mental Powers

 

On the origninal subject:

What do you think? can you affect things without minds even carts?

 

No. Not even a discussion really, the players are taking advantage of a gullible GM. NOTE: This is not necessarily a bad this, so long as everyone is still having fun. If you're not having fun, bring it up, but don't overlook the fact that everyone else is enjoying the game (assuming they are).

 

About the scanning for skelletons specifically... Yes, as the rules state, you cannot use a Mental Power on a target that has no EGO (or mind... some Machine class "minds" don't have EGO, but are still affected by those mental powers). Undead is not a normal class of mind (though it could certainly be added, say for necromancers). If it was it would probably work like the Machine class, and be able to scan and affect skeletons, zombies, etc that had no mind/EGO.

 

Note, in some Fantasy Hero settings, most undead automata have a Physical Limitation stating their vulnerability to necromantic or clerical Mental Powers (and PRE Attacks), which also lists their EGO for such purposes.

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Guest Black Lotus

Re: Mental Powers

 

Note' date=' in some Fantasy Hero settings, most undead automata have a Physical Limitation stating their vulnerability to necromantic or clerical Mental Powers (and PRE Attacks), which also lists their EGO for such purposes.[/quote']

 

I think that undead should also have 0 EGO for purposes of Necromantic mind control. Why? Because they get to have their cake and eat it too. On the one hand they cannot be "given orders" and bullied about like a character with 0 EGO normally could; yet they still get a chance to resist the Mental Powers of necromancers. That's silly. If they have no EGO, Necromancers should automatically succeed trying to control them.

 

All I'm saying is, it's like having a DEX of 0, but a special "SPD 4 and DCV 4 for purposes of combat" ability. Pfffft.

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Re: Mental Powers

 

I think that undead should also have 0 EGO for purposes of Necromantic mind control. Why? Because they get to have their cake and eat it too. On the one hand they cannot be "given orders" and bullied about like a character with 0 EGO normally could; yet they still get a chance to resist the Mental Powers of necromancers. That's silly. If they have no EGO, Necromancers should automatically succeed trying to control them.

 

All I'm saying is, it's like having a DEX of 0, but a special "SPD 4 and DCV 4 for purposes of combat" ability. Pfffft.

 

It's a balance issue. Necromancers and Clerics should not automatically have their way with the undead (even the automata), otherwise the undead become nothing more than a really really powerful rock those characters can throw or ignore. The only exception to this is if said Necro or Cleric has paid points for the undead as a Follower.

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Re: Mental Powers

 

I disagree... I like the classes of mind rule and like that it is the default. There are only a few genres where it shouldn't apply or really needs different rules (such as Champions). Nearly every other genre can use it just fine' date=' or with small adjustments to the default classes (like Star Hero's Mamilian, Reptilian, etc of sentient classes).[/quote']

 

OK, my experience is principally Champions and some Fantasy. However, my take is that there are a lot of genres where mental powers aren't used much, if at all. Considering the ones where they are:

 

Champions/Supers: Generally, mentalists can affect pretty much everyone. Those so unusual they can't should pay the points for the defense - they're pretty rare. A character immune to fire has to pay for it, so why not a character immune to mental attacks?

 

Pulp and Fantasy: Dissimialr genres, except that both tend to have powers loaded down with limitations. "Only normal animals" or "only humans" seems just one more limit in a large field, in such genres.

 

Horror: Here, I can see a case being made, in those subgenres where PC's have psychic powers. The "lots of limits" argument could again be applied. More to the point, however, Horror doesn't consistently apply a "classes of mind" rule. Often, the power has its effect (or is reduced in effect, or blocked because the enemy has a powerful defense), but the character using the power is adversely affected (ie a damage aura). This is at least as common as "It's not working - its mind is too alien".

 

Sci Fi: This is the tough one for me, especially as it's the example you single out positively, as I don't play much sci fi. But, looking at mainstream sci fi, I see:

 

- Star Trek: psychic powers are fairly rare. Vulcans worry about using their powers on non-Vulcans, but they do use them pretty regularly, with limited ill effect. Meanwhile, use of powers on Vulcans sometimes has adverse effects (retro'd in Enterprise). Betazeds (sp? Troi) get empathic feelings from most creatures, although some are too alien to interpret. I chalk that up to "emotions only" rather than inherent classes of minds. Likely a poor example as mental powers are rare.

 

- Star Wars: "Jedi mind tricks" fail on some races and individuals. However, this seems more chalked up to "only working on those of weak minds" (ie I don't have enough dice to control someone with a higher than average EGO - maybe standard effect to smooth out randomness) and a few races perhaps having an inherent resistance (mental defense or damage reduction). Mental powers seem, however, useful only on the bit players.

 

- Babylon 5 - every race but Narn have telepaths, and they all seem to affect all the other races equally. The Narn even want access to other races' telepaths to engineer similar abilities in their own people. Telepathy is effective against the true Aliens (Vorlons and Shadows) and was, in fact, engineered in the younger races so there would be an effective weapon against the Shadows. Until they start using telepaths, they're helpless.

 

I can't think of any mainstream sci fi where classes of minds has a big impact, but again I'm not a huge sci fi fan. I'm sure there are some, but I'm still leaning to "it's a subgenre/campaign optional rule" rather than "it's the default".

 

Overall, classes of minds reminds me a lot of the old Fantasy Hero's magic system - best presented as a campaign specific structure, or an option, and not as the default mechanic for all settings. Obviously, your views vary, and either way we can both game the way we want (I remove the default, or you add the option). However, I find this default imposes an inappropriate default restriction inconsistent with the usual "toolbox" approach and, as such, would best be an optional rule, ideally presented in a package of options for dealing with different types of minds (ECV penalties; moving effects up the charts; reduced effect rather than all or nothing; likely some I haven't considered; with the adders negating the ill effects).

 

Even in champions' date=' you could keep it as is, and allow a Perk/Talent if character want to be from a different class, or just make sure that there are enough of each class active in the game that it automatically balances out (like in Star Hero and most Fantasy Hero games).[/quote']

 

How do you cost out a perk or talent which basically makes a character immune to a field of attacks? I guess we need to start with 3/4 Damage Reduction, all mental powers, not vs. powers that affect Alien class minds, which now needs to be costed higher because it confers complete invulnerability, not 3/4. Pretty expensive talent that's looking to be, which is why I don't see "costing" it as free to an NPC as appropriate.

 

It would, as you say, be more balanced if each class was represented with similar frequency. At that point, however, the adders pretty much become mandatory to have a general use power, so we get 12d6 Energy Blast for 60 points, or 3d6 Ego Blast (after spending 30 on adders). I don't find mentalists overpowered to the extent they need such a downgrade. YMMV.

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Re: Mental Powers

 

Betazeds (sp? Troi) get empathic feelings from most creatures' date=' although some are too alien to interpret. I chalk that up to "emotions only" rather than inherent classes of minds. Likely a poor example as mental powers are rare.[/quote']

This is why we adopted the system we use.

 

Human sentient: -0

Human-like sentient: -1 ecv

Non-human-like sentient: -2 ecv

Exotic sentient: -3 ecv

 

Troi is going to be -0 when using her powers on Betazeds. She's -1 when using them on humans, be we assume she purchased +1 OCV with humans [as those are her primary patients]. The more exotic [and unbetazed-like] the greater her penalty. So against something sentient but completely alien she's -3 to OCV. If Troi fails she can sense their emotions but she can't get any meaning from them.

 

Betazed: -0

Humans, Klingons: -1, but purchased a level.

Vulcans, Ferangi, Romulans: -1

Gorn: -2

Q: -3

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Re: Mental Powers

 

It would' date=' as you say, be more balanced if each class was represented with similar frequency.[/quote']

 

I think you're looking at it from the wrong PoV.

 

Don't consider it equal points for equal ability. Consider it additonal points for do something highly uncommon and very special for a mentalist- crossing over to affecting something most of them can't.

 

The base Mind Class selected at the start represents the common ability.

 

You're buy a Perk to set yourself apart and above, nothing more.

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