Jump to content

Mental Powers


Recommended Posts

Re: Mental Powers

 

Another solution is to merge them together, call it sentient minds, and let advanced robots fit in too. You could also assume that "alien" was never really meant to refer to elves or people from Krypton but to truly alien and bizarre extra dimensional beings.

 

Or is it that important to you that Mentalla the Enchantress be able to use her powers to seduce bears, house cats, playstations, and i-macs?

 

I agree with you totally zod, here's my 2 cents on your speach.

 

technically elves, orcs, humans and ogres are all the same species. At least according to the laws of biology. I'm not going to aruge socioligy with anyone, but they are all the same species biologically. How do i know this? Because they can all interbreed and form viable offspring. half orc, half elf, half ogre. All are techically the same thing. So it's totally acceptable for them to all have "human" minds.

 

The second part, is would i-macs and widows machines be two diffrent species of computers do to dissimilarity in design? is linex like mental defense?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 325
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Re: Mental Powers

 

Since when did the Alien class of mind include "dudes from other planets"? I don't recall it saying that in the books.

 

Well, the book's written in the US - I guess that means "alien" is anyone who's not a US citizen :nonp:

 

Seriously, I agree the definition is part of the problem. However, now we get into the point value issue. If aliens are almost never encountered, and humans, animals and machines are all very common, why should a power with the defaultoif "Alien minds" cost the same as one defaulting to more common classes of minds.

 

It just lists a term named Alien. I naturally assumed it meant that litterally... something that is completely different in fuction and method than a human mind. From what I've seen Spock' date=' E.T. and My Favorite Martial all have human minds. Cthulu has an alien mind. The strange energy beings that inhabit the middle atmosphere of gas giants have alien minds. The 4th dimentional hyperkitty and the superintilligent shade of blue would have alien minds. Of course, these are things that no PC can ever play, except in extremely rare situations.[/quote']

 

This effect can be simulated just as easily by giving those "strange, non-humanoid, so far removed from us as to be completely incomprehensible" beings mental defense in recognition of their bizarre thinking patterns.

 

That approach would not give rise to the same differences in interpretation, nor would it result in a multi-page discussion such as this one as to what constitutes an "alien" mind, and whether certain powers are more or less valuable depending on which "default" class of mind they affect.

 

To me, the present system falls on its face whether you believe each the ability to influence each class of mind is equal in value, or unequal. If unequal, why should it cost the same 60 points for 12d6 of Mind Control affecting any one of the four. If equal, wy does it only cost 30 points more to affect all four, instead of four times the cost? [The easy answer here is "what would a multipower cost", but +10 isn't an accurate representation of that either, and the MP would still require you to pick the right slot).

 

Overall, I'm not saying "classes of mind" is a wholly unworkable concept. I am saying it is not the best fit for a majority of games (or even a significant minority) and, as a result, should not be presented as a core rule.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

To avoid overquoting: Hugh, Hawksmoor, try looking at it this way...

 

Since when did the Alien class of mind include "dudes from other planets"? I don't recall it saying that in the books. It just lists a term named Alien. I naturally assumed it meant that litterally... something that is completely different in fuction and method than a human mind. From what I've seen Spock, E.T. and My Favorite Martial all have human minds. Cthulu has an alien mind. The strange energy beings that inhabit the middle atmosphere of gas giants have alien minds. The 4th dimentional hyperkitty and the superintilligent shade of blue would have alien minds. Of course, these are things that no PC can ever play, except in extremely rare situations.

 

Look at it this way and there is no such thing as a "really, if I play the Noob from Neptune I'm immune to mental powers for free?" issue. The Noob from Neptune has a human class of mind.... or rather, humans have the same class of mind as the Noob.

 

I think you are taking this stuff way too litterally. Relax and allow yourself to interperate for a while.

 

 

I hold my views since the gameworld in which I play the most has the following rule:

 

**************************************

Mental Powers and Classes of Mind: By default, mental powers automatically affect the class of minds to which the possessor of the mental powers belongs (e.g., a human affects human minds, a machine affects machine minds, and so on).

 

Affecting an additional class of mind is a +10 point adder as always, with the exception of alien minds. Since each alien species is different, the mentalist must purchase the adder for every species he wishes to affect. The first alien species costs +10 points as always, but each species after costs only +3 points.

 

It should be noted that the "Humans" class of minds include sentient apes and Tautiq, due to the mechanical similarity between the brains of those species, as well as to the similarity of their thought patterns.

 

**********************************

 

Personally I hate it. I use the Penalty system in my small F2F game.

 

The rulebook says Alien and that is how Jack read it and applied it to the GGU.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

I think classes of minds are vital to doing mental powers right. In most of the source material, fantasy fiction, superhero comics, and science fiction, mentalists are extremely limited in terms of who they can affect.

 

If you make a Druid that can control the minds of animals, his power shouldn't work on humans. A supervillian with the power to control the brain chemistry of his foes should not affect computer terminals.

 

The Druid can just as readily take a limitation. As for the Mind Control power, mental powers by default (even without classes of minds) do not affect anything with no Ego score. The ability to affect computers in a fashion similar to mental powers should be a separate power (perhaps a modifier to certain mental powers, perhaps powers all their own). But "classes of mind" is not an elegant solution to the desire to have "affects computers" mental powers.

 

As to how "good" mental powers are by comparison to other powers, there's no breakout roll from an Energy Blast, and Mind Control has lots of non-combat uses, so I don't think the comparison is easy. However, under the "classic" rules, with mentalists affecting anything with an ego score, I've never found mentalists to dominate the game, or to be dominated by other archetypes in the game.

 

Except maybe Ego Attack. Maybe you think its unbalanced to have an attack power that by default can't do damage to any target you aim it at' date=' like a RKA or EB could. Then you can always just assume the developers didn't have Ego Attack in mind when they made the class of minds rule (they aren't infallible after all) and allow Ego Attack to work on anything with something resembling a nervous system.[/quote']

 

Well, unless the Ego Attack attacks human brain chemistry. Now we end up with a system allowing limitations on some mental powers, but not others, which is not an elegant solution either.

 

And it would be so simple to just fit all PCs into the people' date=' or sentient category. If your smart enough to be a viable PC then you are not an animal, even if you are talking cat. If you are an advanced AI, then maybe you should count as a human and not a machine. Maybe you should take a physical limitation and count as both.[/quote']

 

Of course, my animal followers are just the thing to demolish that annoying mentalist villain...

 

And it would be so simple to just fit all PCs into the people' date=' or sentient category. If your smart enough to be a viable PC then you are not an animal, even if you are talking cat. If you are an advanced AI, then maybe you should count as a human and not a machine. Maybe you should take a physical limitation and count as both.[/quote']

 

The fact that we seem to agree there is a need for all PC's to fit into the same category, because immunity to standard mental powers is a valuable trait, highlights, to me, the inappropriateness of a rule which provides such immunity as a default to many NPC's.

 

Zornwil hits the nail on the head when he notes this structure effectively imposes special effects on characters. If my Ego Attack stimulates the sleep centers of the brain, it ought to work on anything that can sleep. "Does not affect anything that cannot sleep" becomes a limitation, but a -0 unless there is a signiifcant number of targets which would otherwise be affected by an Ego attack and won't be affected by this one.

 

I also find classes of minds opens up some issues which are more difficult to resolve than many here seem to think. "Alien minds" are those that think very differently from our own? Does that include people suffering from autism - people whose minds quite literally work differently from the human norm? What about Asperger's syndrome, which is similar to autism, and which is a disadvantage of a player character discussed elsewhere on the boards (not mine)? That's a more "alien" mind than any Vulcan or Klingon. Is it "alien enough" to fall outside the Human Minds category?

 

Can you change classes of mind? Perhaps my character has a Multiform under which he changes to a real animal (complete with "animal intelligence" disadvantage). So now he's immune to most mental powers, right? What about Wolverine, whose berserk state is classically referred to as "reverting to the animal"? And why is a human mind so different from that of a dolphin, yet a dolphin's mind is similar to that of a toad? These boxes aren't as easily compartmentalized as you think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

I can't add much, but there is one thing standing out to me...

 

In Lord Zod's commentary (which is good as it goes even if I am in agreement with Hugh on this), I would really call out the point from Zod:

 

It seems to me that all of this argument is really not about the issue of classes of minds itself but about the issue of fitting characters into the right categories so that nobody gets a free ride thanks to their background or sfx. I think there are better ways to fix this than eliminating classes of minds altogether.

 

The thing is, this is indeed specifically about Classes of Mind, and not the other stuff.

 

Are Classes of Mind, in effect, a virtual form of dividing Mental up into sub-defenses as the physical (note small "p") attacks are divided into ED and PD, with an understandable difference that it's all or nothing so you just have one stat and if you don't have it, it's not 0, it's invulnerability (or the option as cited earlier, which is an interesting leap from invulnerability to "just a little harder")? If so, is this really the right way to do it? Why did Limitations fall by the wayside, why were they inadequate? Why was it not easier to construct CoM with rules about the CoM Framework - I really don't know why the rules are Human vs Alien vs Animal vs Machine when in many genra these are incredibly varying in value. I can presume that it's a broad brush and that the rules intend that there is a balance of both commonality and utility (e.g., Aliens may not be so common but affecting them is incredibly important, perhaps - uh, perhaps...). But without a framework and divorced as such from the tools of the rest of the system, this is an aberrant device - it is a wholly new invented Mechanic manifesting in the Rules or it is a Rule unfounded in the core Mechanics. I really don't know which.

 

Again, we are now embedding SFX directly into the system. I would not object so much if the rulebook were, as a brief, under-written example, "GMs should construct Classes of Minds for Mental powers. A Class of Mind is a type of mind distinct to a type of mental targetting, a particular broad but distinct SFX, such as targetting brains versus targetting computer intelligences. The typical class is very broad, but if a group of target minds would be especially useful it ought to be broken out as its own Class. Typically, in most settings, Humans constitute a single Class of Minds. In modern games, Machines are considered another Class of Mind due to their ubiquity and reasonably "near human" utility, plus the fact that they obvously would be targetted by quite different SFX than human brains would be. In many settings, particularly Fantasy, Animals constitute a Class of Mind. Aliens may constitute a Class of Mind if either important enough to the setting that they should be separated from Humans or if so common that it simply makes sense to otherwise keep them separate from Humans and there is still similar utility for the use of Mental powers with Aliens." That was terribly written, but you get the gist.

 

Instead we got "There are 4 classes, Aliens, Machines, Humans, and Animals, but GMs can and should change this as needed," in essence.

 

Still, I do object to both, the former merely not so strongly. I see no reason for this further embedding of SFX unless the system is going to step up and do the same for the other areas such as Adjustment Powers and NND and Limitations and the like! Now, if we are going to say that the general solution to the matrix of SFX and capabilities in the system will be Classes of SFX, ah, well, interesting, perhaps useful! It becomes a common mechanic and can instruct and inform across the board. Heck, it's not even a bad idea! And then we can really use rules such as "-5 CV, -10 (CHAR)" or the like to ensure it doesn't create pure invulnerabiltiies if that's not desired. Ah, now, here perhaps is a light at the end of this tunnel, if we take this road. But that is something that really requires serious thought. If the intent is a trial balloon of "Classes of SFX" using the Mental area, I don't think this was the way to approach it, even though I think the general notion has merit at least to consider.

 

I think classes of minds are vital to doing mental powers right. In most of the source material' date=' fantasy fiction, superhero comics, and science fiction, mentalists are extremely limited in terms of who they can affect.[/quote']

 

I would really, really challenge "most". It seems to me when I see Mentalists they more often have rather broad powers and the blind spots are rather narrow but plot-critical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

I would really' date=' really challenge "most". It seems to me when I see Mentalists they more often have rather broad powers and the blind spots are rather narrow but plot-critical.[/quote']

 

I'd like to see a listing, genre by genre, of source material where mental powers appear to cleanly fit into the "classes of mind" model.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

I'd like to see a listing' date=' genre by genre, of source material where mental powers appear to cleanly fit into the "classes of mind" model.[/quote']

 

I would too, but I'm not enough into one particular genre/setting to make such a list. I believe each setting does, and now it fits is different for each setting. Of course, I also believe you'd just ignore such a list and state how much easier it and cleaner would be if you just used Limitations on Mental Powers to define what it can't work on.

 

Sorry, I don't mean to take a crack at you like that, but so far you've been less and less "why that way?" and more and more "that way is stupid because this other way works."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

zornwil,

 

What do you mean my embedding SFX into the system? All I'm seeing here are game mechanics. The SFX aren't assumed or forced or anything by these mechanics.

We must not be working from the same terminology. I am calling SFX that layer on top of the mechanics which indicates the "flavor", if you will, but the mechanic works the same regardless. Where the SFX is particularly limiting, one gets a Limitation of course, and there are lots of -0 Limitations referred to as byproducts of SFX. I would have called "Telekinesis, Machines Only/No Humans (-0)..." a declaration of the SFX, at least in the past.

 

Let's be clear here - Energy vs Physical is an SFX embedded in the system. I'm not saying it's wrong or that you will even agree with my comment, but I am just spelling out "what is SFX".

 

PS - and they're clearly forced - prior I could buy "Telekinesis" with no designation, assumed to work against any "mind" and this human/alien/animal thing didn't come into it except by further SFX definition and character construction and so on. Machines of course are a somewhat separate issue and history.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

I would too, but I'm not enough into one particular genre/setting to make such a list. I believe each setting does, and now it fits is different for each setting. Of course, I also believe you'd just ignore such a list and state how much easier it and cleaner would be if you just used Limitations on Mental Powers to define what it can't work on.

 

Sorry, I don't mean to take a crack at you like that, but so far you've been less and less "why that way?" and more and more "that way is stupid because this other way works."

 

When this started, several posters indicated "this is the way mentalists always work, in the source material". I don't agree, as set out in posts way back there in the thread. And I haven't seen a listing of the "Standard sources" for the argument that this is the way the genres work. All I've seen is comments that "oh, those genre examples don't have TRULY alien minds." So where are all the examples to show that the "Classes of mind" issue is so common it merits placement in the core rules?

 

As said earlier, I grant that mental powers don't affect "minds" with no Ego, like security cameras or computers. We need an advantage, limitation, power or modifier that applies mental powers to such constructs. But this would be a separate power, different from (though mechanically very similar to) mental powers that work on entities which do, in fact, have minds.

 

I think you came in a bit later and disclaimed the earlier discussion as being scanned. And no offense taken - I'm sure Ive reiterated points you, or someone, already covered somewhere in this 6 page morass.

 

Ruminating on this issue further, I believe classes of minds violates failry basic Hero precepts. Zornwil alludes to this in his discussion of class of mind as SFX.

 

Suppose you are reading a character background. Maybe it's a PC, maybe it's a new villains book, whatever. The character is a martial artist. He trained for many years, learning quasi-mystical techniques of defense and offense in all forms of combat. He trained for hours each day, both physical exercise to strengthen his body, and meditation to strengthen his mind. He is a well-honed fighting machine.

 

Now you look at the character sheet, and our character has a 10 Ego, and no mental defense. I suspect, like me, your reaction will be "where's the 'strong in mind' "? I would have expected this character to haver paid for mental defense and/or an increased Ego score. He doesn't just get it because of his backstory - ie the "special effects" of the character as a whole. Nor does he have an automatic "contact" with his teacher solely because his backstory indicates they ahve remained in touch. He must pay the points.

 

Similarly if, in my fantasy game, all Elves are masters of the bow and sword, their package deal will include one or more skill levels with bow and/or sword to simulate this. If you don't pay the points for those skills, you aren't an elf. But defining your character as an elf does not get you +1 with bows and swords for free.

 

My character's skin is rocky and tough? I buy extra defenses and damage resistance. He can fly through space? I pay for FTL and Life Support. In Hero, you pay points to purchase the special skills, powers, abilities and attributes that are demanded by your character concept. You don't get handed abilities for free because of your concept. Even if you're a pure NPC automaton, you still pay ppoints for the various unusual (and generally barred to player characters) abilities which define you as an automaton. Your concept and backstory may have some minor advantages and disadvantages so small and/or infrequent that they are not statted out with points, but that's the limit.

 

Except for the Classes of Mind rules. Here, the backstory and concept of your character can provide you with a significant advantage over other characters for no point cost. "Oh, your martial artist was trained by aliens since he was a baby, and as a result, he thinks like an alien and belongs to the ALiem mind class. Well, he doesn't need to pay for mental defense or Efo then, he's invulnerable to mental powers which don't have the 'affects alien minds' adder. Oh, but you still have to pay for the alien sensei as a contact."

 

More properly, in my opinion, would be to tell the player "Your character background indicates your alie,n mind makes your character difficult for human mentalists to affect. You should buy some ECV levels and/or mental defense to simulate that. These abilities don't come for free." And that should be the same rule for the stygian horror Man Was Not Meant to Know. He's invulnerable to mental attacks? Buy up his ECV, buy Mental damage reduction, buy mental defenses. If the character has an ability that others do not share, it's something he pays points for. And if he lacks an ability that others have, he gets disadvantage points.

 

It really is that simple.

 

Or it was, until someone came up with the bright idea of adding "classes of mind", a concept alien to the Hero system, to the core rules.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

Telekinesis is inherently limited by target type (animal' date=' plant, alien, or human, or whatever) now? I thought that was just the Mental Powers.[/quote']

 

Well, not at present, but really, shouldn't creatures with unusual body structures be immune, or at least much more resistant, to attacks designed to hurt human-class beings? I mean, when you shoot a gun at a human, or a lion, the target is badly wounded and may die, but whoever heard of killing a tree with a gun. Much less a sentient energy field, a crystalline entity or variant of the colour blue - why would they be eothered by fire, cold or radiation?

 

:nonp: Hey, if "alien mind" justifies free unlimited mental defense unless an adder is applied to the mental attack, why shouldn't "alien body" justify free unlimited physical and/or energy defenses unless that attack pays for the privilege of affecting such an alien structure? :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

Since I was in the FAQ for another thread...

 

Q: What qualifies for the “Alien†class of minds?

 

A: That’s something each GM has to define for his own purposes (and it’s definitely a topic for discussion in The Ultimate Mentalist). Generally, Alien is “any sentient species other than the species the character belongs to, that does not qualify for any other category.â€

 

However, “Alien†status might vary depending on the closeness of the relationship between the two species. For example, if you have an Atlantis where the inhabitants were once Human, but have since somehow evolved away from that and are a distinct species, they might count as Alien. Or you might rule that because they come from Human stock, they still count as Human for the purposes of Mental Powers.

 

So much for "Alien only means something vastly different from, and well nigh incomprehensible to,humans.

 

Q: How can a character buy the ability to switch between classes of minds?

 

A: Via Multiform. The alternate form is the same as he is, but with a different class of mind. However, note the next answer, which explains that normally Multiform doesn’t change the character’s class of mind; what’s described in this answer is a special use of Multiform that only changes the character’s class of mind.

 

Pretty expensive power... Assume a Super (350 points). He'll need his Multiform to have 292 points, so he pays 58 points for it (leaving two forms, each with different classes of minds but otherwise having 292 points spent the same way). Desolid, 0 END only costs 60. I think I'd rather spend 40 points on Mental Defense - that's functional invulnerability, even if the attacker has the adders for different classes of mind.

 

Q: If a character has a Multiform that lets him switch to something other than human (say, a wolf), does that change his class of mind?

 

A: If the wolf retains human intellect and the like, then he’s still got a Human mind. If not (if the character becomes completely wolf-like mentally [to the point where his INT and EGO drop to wolf levels, etc.], or loses his personality to the effects of the Personality Loss Limitation), then he’d have an Animal mind.

 

Of course, he could have both; you can take that as a 5-point Physical Limitation. That’s probably the best solution in most cases.

 

Hmmm...this seems a lot cheaper than the previous answer [though taking on all the characteristics of that other class of minds may be less than desirable.]

 

Q: Can a character “turn off†the default class of minds for a Mental Power, if the power has more than one?

 

A: That’s up to the GM, but generally should be allowed.

 

That seems like a good way to detect aliens and androids that look like humans. "OK, I've got a telepathic link. I shut off Alien Minds. Still linked? OK, shut off Mechine class. Link's gone? Hey, guys, he's a robot!"

 

Q: If a character has a Variable Power Pool of Mental Powers, can he switch the “class of minds†a power effects from power to power, or must he buy that separately for the entire VPP?

 

A: He may switch it from power to power. Unless he specifies, and pays for, the Multiple Classes Adder, he can only affect his normal class of minds with a power.

 

Mentalists should use VPP's if there's a wide array of different classes of mind, I guess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

When this started' date=' several posters indicated "this is the way mentalists always work, in the source material". I don't agree, as set out in posts way back there in the thread. And I haven't seen a listing of the "Standard sources" for the argument that this is the way the genres work. All I've seen is comments that "oh, those genre examples don't have TRULY alien minds." So where are all the examples to show that the "Classes of mind" issue is so common it merits placement in the core rules? [/quote']

 

Well, it's a long shot, but there is one setting I'm highly familiar with. Smallville. I would think that Clark has an alien class of mind, because he is either immune, or has absolutely no defense against, a mental attack. Those with human origins can't seem to affect him (kid telepath and the salesman), but the mystics (the kid with a name I can't pronounce let alone spell, who was really a demon of some sort in the comics, and Lana turned superwitch). The mystics have purchased the Alien class of mind, and the non mystics haven't.

 

Of course, he could also have just bought a LOT of Mental Defense with Not Versus Magic on it, but technically he'd have to have bought a High EGO with that Lim, as he couldn't even tell those powers were being used on him (as he should by the standard rules), or else everyone in the world has bought their Telepathy and Mind Control IPE and Required Level Of Effect (target unaware of effects of the power), which I doubt. Then again, since Clark is either the only PC, or a PC who's been given 10x the points of any other, it's probably easier to just say his mind is Alien and start playing.

 

As said earlier, I grant that mental powers don't affect "minds" with no Ego, like security cameras or computers. We need an advantage, limitation, power or modifier that applies mental powers to such constructs. But this would be a separate power, different from (though mechanically very similar to) mental powers that work on entities which do, in fact, have minds.

Ultimately, this is exactly what the Classes of Mind do. It effectively makes it an entirely different Power to affect machines. And it does it without actually renaming 5 Powers and giving them nearly identical descriptions and wasting a bunch of ink. What is also does is allow for other classes as well, and provides two examples. I can understand why you might think it's rather silly to do that, but it really is helpful. It's not an either/or option, but a completely open door that could go anywhere (and like all the other open doors in Hero, only the GM is assumed to decide where that door goes, and whether or not to just shut it). Even when you read what's listed, the classes aren't even defined. Just listed. The GM defines them, as only the GM can (kind of like point caps and such, which aren't defined either, except in genrebooks, where things like classes of mind are defined as well.... go figure).

 

Suppose you are reading a character background. Maybe it's a PC, maybe it's a new villains book, whatever. The character is a martial artist. He trained for many years, learning quasi-mystical techniques of defense and offense in all forms of combat. He trained for hours each day, both physical exercise to strengthen his body, and meditation to strengthen his mind. He is a well-honed fighting machine.

 

Now you look at the character sheet, and our character has a 10 Ego, and no mental defense. I suspect, like me, your reaction will be "where's the 'strong in mind' "? I would have expected this character to haver paid for mental defense and/or an increased Ego score. He doesn't just get it because of his backstory - ie the "special effects" of the character as a whole. Nor does he have an automatic "contact" with his teacher solely because his backstory indicates they ahve remained in touch. He must pay the points.

This reminds me of several characters published in 3rd edition. :)

 

Similarly if, in my fantasy game, all Elves are masters of the bow and sword, their package deal will include one or more skill levels with bow and/or sword to simulate this. If you don't pay the points for those skills, you aren't an elf. But defining your character as an elf does not get you +1 with bows and swords for free.

 

My character's skin is rocky and tough? I buy extra defenses and damage resistance. He can fly through space? I pay for FTL and Life Support. In Hero, you pay points to purchase the special skills, powers, abilities and attributes that are demanded by your character concept. You don't get handed abilities for free because of your concept. Even if you're a pure NPC automaton, you still pay ppoints for the various unusual (and generally barred to player characters) abilities which define you as an automaton. Your concept and backstory may have some minor advantages and disadvantages so small and/or infrequent that they are not statted out with points, but that's the limit.

Well, duh.

 

Except for the Classes of Mind rules. Here, the backstory and concept of your character can provide you with a significant advantage over other characters for no point cost. "Oh, your martial artist was trained by aliens since he was a baby, and as a result, he thinks like an alien and belongs to the ALiem mind class. Well, he doesn't need to pay for mental defense or Efo then, he's invulnerable to mental powers which don't have the 'affects alien minds' adder. Oh, but you still have to pay for the alien sensei as a contact."

Okay, lets say you are a player, and I'm the GM. I love the Classes of Mind rules by the way, remember. I think they are perfect. :)

 

You bring me this concept, and I'll say "Well, if you were raised by aliens enough to think like then... those aliens must be very human-like." If you really want to invulerability... buy it seperately, but you'd got to have the same class of mind everyone else is playing with (like you gotta have the same characteristic maxima, the same starting points, the same values for Primary Characteristics and the same cost for all the Powers).

 

This is how simple it is. And it lets me throw a vampire at the group (immune to mental powers, except from the master vampire and other powerful, inhuman creatures... i.e. bought the Vampire Class of mind) without fudging things (well, the limitation say "not versus inhuman minds" I guess your robot can mind controll him; or I mind scan for the Vampire... I hit? cool... darn not of enough effect to reach him. Well, he might be immune to all my powers, but I know what room he's in, cuz it's the only room I scanned!)

 

It really is that simple.

 

Or it was, until someone came up with the bright idea of adding "classes of mind", a concept alien to the Hero system, to the core rules.

And it still is... I still haven't found anything that defines the classes of minds in core rulebook, and have to assume the GM can define them anyway he wants to. According to the basic/standard rules, the GM can say he's using one Class that includes everything just as easily as he can say characters are build on 200 base points plus 150 from disads with a 60 active point limit on attack powers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

Since I was in the FAQ for another thread...

 

Good Idea!

 

So much for "Alien only means something vastly different from, and well nigh incomprehensible to,humans.

Well, another example of Steve not understanding his own rules. ;)

 

Honestly though, it's not defined at all, even by that FAQ. The first statement says so. The "generally" (there's a word that implies carved in stone)statement that follows is also extremely vague. A species other than human, that doesn't belong to another class of mind... while Human is a class of mind they might just belong too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

Well, it's a long shot, but there is one setting I'm highly familiar with. Smallville.

 

CLIPPED

 

Of course, he could also have just bought a LOT of Mental Defense with Not Versus Magic on it,

 

It's pretty much cliche that Superman has limited defenses against magic, but I will admit I hadn't considered Smallville at all.

 

but technically he'd have to have bought a High EGO with that Lim' date=' as he couldn't even tell those powers were being used on him (as he should by the standard rules), or else [i']everyone[/i] in the world has bought their Telepathy and Mind Control IPE and Required Level Of Effect (target unaware of effects of the power), which I doubt.

 

No one seems to notice Telepathy, especially, has been used on them, in most genres.

 

This argument also blows away the "aliens are incomprehensible to humans" theory - If anything, Clark thinks more human than a lot of real humans.

 

Ultimately' date=' this is exactly what the Classes of Mind do. It effectively makes it an entirely different Power to affect machines.[/quote']

 

The machine class does this. It hardly makes "alien" or "animal" class necessary. Machine class is necessary because the mechanics must change becuase machines have no Ego.

 

And I would suggest the macine class of minds is sufficinetly useful that 8d6 Telepathy against machine class should cost 40 points, regardless of whether your character already has 8d6 of telepathy that works on humans or not. Classes of mind means it costs either 10 points or 40 points, a difference I consider significant.

 

This reminds me of several characters published in 3rd edition. :)

 

Me too :straight:

 

You bring me this concept' date=' and I'll say "Well, if you were raised by aliens enough to think like then... those aliens must be very human-like." If you really want to invulerability... buy it seperately, but you'd got to have the same class of mind everyone else is playing with (like you gotta have the same characteristic maxima, the same starting points, the same values for Primary Characteristics and the same cost for all the Powers).[/quote']

 

So does every character who has the Alien class of mind, based on the Steve Long interpretation.

 

This is how simple it is. And it lets me throw a vampire at the group (immune to mental powers' date=' except from the master vampire and other powerful, inhuman creatures... i.e. bought the Vampire Class of mind) without fudging things[/quote']

 

Except the big fudge of Vampires being immune at no point cost.

 

And the real fudge - a player who wants to play Hannibal King, or another character who logically has a vampire-class mind, should also be immune to non-vampire mentalists.

 

BTW, this also implies vampires have Mind Control usable only against non-default class minds.

 

And it still is... I still haven't found anything that defines the classes of minds in core rulebook' date=' and have to assume the GM can define them anyway he wants to. According to the basic/standard rules, the GM can say he's using one Class that includes everything just as easily as he can say characters are build on 200 base points plus 150 from disads with a 60 active point limit on attack powers.[/quote']

 

The book defines defaults. IMO, classes of minds should not be a default. YMMAADV

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

I think both Hugh and I have granted that this "Machine" class of minds is where the concept gains legitimacy, as there is a built-in constraint in the system prior to this and while it could be somewhat resolved with a -0 Lim, it was very unclear as to whether that made sense, based on the rules, there was still the issue of not having EGO.

 

But, and I sort of hate to say it because I find it to be cluttering, perhaps it would have been better to have "Brain Mental Defense" and "Machine Mental Defense", more consistent with PD and ED. Most characters would have 0 MMD although cyborgs would have some of both, often with an emphasis in one or the other...or you define Mental Armor as BMD and MMD. Like I said, I don't think I like it and I might find that creating a whole new sub-system for Class of Mind is a better solution, because it does address more elegantly that one is typically one or the other and there is a lack of vulnerability to whatever you are not, which BMD and MMD does not do.

 

But there is no real justification as there was not, to my mind, a significant demand/issue regarding the distinction among Human, Animal, and Alien. And defining them this way is indeed an unusual SFX distinction as it is so specific, and I simply don't think Mental Powers are or have been that specific in implementation in some 90+% of games, though of course I only guess. The thing is, this basically states that Mental Powers work in a certain manner, and that is restrictive to an unknown, fantastic quality that has no real-world (and therefore neither in heroic fiction, which is of course our real bar) definition. See, PD and ED have a real-world basis, we understand the essential difference and it obeys physical mechanics familiar both in the real and therefore the fantasy world. Their derivation, though one could (and some do) argue is already too much SFX, is obvious to even the casual reader. And the notion of how Energy can affect you differently than Physical is as well. But how do Mental Powers work? One could claim they are pure energy transmission which can be broadcast into the target mind and that certain breeds have recepters for their own breed of generators. One could claim they are magic and go just about anywhere with that, depending on the type of magic. One could claim they are a broadcast of energy which physically manipulates the target mind, different than the prior situation in allowing modification to any target mind, depending on familiarity and use. One could claim that a brain broadcasts thoughts and images as such and receiving brains get them and interpret them within the receiving brain's context however the physical aspect works. And so on. Each of these has different implications, and some may beg Lims or Advs depending on the setting.

 

I think a simple and central issue is that, as I said, Mental Powers are fantastic and not real-world rooted (well, not yet anyway!). So, in the heroic fiction we emulate, they vary tremendously in implementation. Thus modelling it needs to be extremely flexible and GM-driven. I don't think CoM as stated is "extremely" flexible nor does it really leave things GM-driven.

 

Back to the discussion on Machine "minds", in fact, I see more strength as we consider it not as implemented but if one were to take that example and expand upon it for "how to create a CoM like Machine", then we can also see that we create a method to shift the Char focused against, and we see that the notion is that the char is one typically built up for those superior in that Class, so there is no bonus or penalty because the Char is more or less highly valued than EGO. Perhaps we want to say that among the Animals, their CON is more indicative of their hardiness and what really drives their "EGO", so we can create Animal Class, use CON instead of EGO for Def. It is actually a rather nice mechanic at that point, if elaborated on and clear in regard to the purpose of its implementation. And it leaves various questions on sentient and animal mental issues to GMs, where they belong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

This argument also blows away the "aliens are incomprehensible to humans" theory - If anything, Clark thinks more human than a lot of real humans.

Never did I say Smallville would be a typical Champions game, so at best it nudges it a bit. Every genre/setting is different, and thus will have different classes of mind, and different definitions for those classes. There is no default (other than Steve Long's house rules).

 

 

 

The machine class does this. It hardly makes "alien" or "animal" class necessary. Machine class is necessary because the mechanics must change becuase machines have no Ego.

Necessary, no. An option, yes. If you were writing a book, made up a new rule that plugged a hole, and found out that rule opened up some rather interesting options... wouldn't you point a few out?

 

Except the big fudge of Vampires being immune at no point cost.

 

And the real fudge - a player who wants to play Hannibal King, or another character who logically has a vampire-class mind, should also be immune to non-vampire mentalists.

 

BTW, this also implies vampires have Mind Control usable only against non-default class minds.

 

What big fudge? No immune for free. Next you'll be telling me that the Automaton is against the core aspects of the rules because it's immune to mental powers too? What's wrong with a Vampire that could easily be written up as an Automaton with an AI for control. What are the rules for targeting an AI that may or may not be somewhere within the body of the Automaton? Personally, I don't see it as any big deal.

 

As for the player that says "but I wanna be a Vamp and be immune to mental powers!!!" I say SHOT THE MUNCHKIN SCUM and get some real players. All PCs should be built on the same guidelines (unless a mutual agreement among the players is made otherwise). That includes a class of mind. If that means they can't play a vampire because all vampires have the "vampire" or "alien" class of mind and all PCs must have "human" or "living", then they can't play a vampire anymore than they can play a 750 point character in a 200 point game.

 

Why are you overlooking this? Do you run games where the players can play whatever they want, and no need damn the GM if their concept is innapproprite for the setting and tone of the campaign 'cuz he'll let them regardless?

 

 

 

The book defines defaults. IMO, classes of minds should not be a default. YMMAADV

 

The book defines few defaults, and classes of minds are not one of them. The only reason any are listed at all (in the FAQ) is because Steve was asked a question and failed his EGO Roll on his "must answer with "with the GM's permission, yes" Psych Limit, or was asked in such a way that couldn't be answered with a yes or no. As I said (and will keep saying), the rulebook does not define the classes of minds. It just lists some options.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

Well, I've found this thread quite interesting.

 

I've reread rules about this in Hero 5th Edition (don't have the Hero 5th Edition Revised for reference at the moment).

 

In Hero 4th Edition, Mental Powers were Classless. However, in the Ultimate Mentalist 4th Edition it gave an new rules option Class Of Minds that the GM could implement, and it was clearly marked as optional. Guess who wrote that book, Steve Long.

 

Now comes Hero 5th Edition with a change to Mental Powers:

At their base level, Mental Powers affect only one class of minds.

Ok, regardless of what the rest of the section says, per the rules, all Mental Powers start out affecting a single class of minds. There's nothing clearly marking this as optional.

 

I'm sure Dust Raven agrees with this.

 

However, Dust Raven seems to be saying one of the following things, and please correct me if I'm wrong on this, I just want to know which one.

 

1) By default, per the rules, All Mental Powers are Classless or only one class exists by default that includes everyone.

 

2) By default, per the rules, the GM is forced to define the classes for his campaign/setting.

 

Just trying to figure out which one you believe to be true. Thanks.

 

- Christopher Mullins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

I just wanted to thow out an oddball question, a sort of tangent if you will.

 

If I had a campaign where no "Mind Manipulation" SFXwise existed, would any of the "Mental Powers" still be needed? Or would they be null an void for that campaign?

 

Just Curious

 

- Christopher Mullins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

Well, I've found this thread quite interesting.

 

I've reread rules about this in Hero 5th Edition (don't have the Hero 5th Edition Revised for reference at the moment).

 

In Hero 4th Edition, Mental Powers were Classless. However, in the Ultimate Mentalist 4th Edition it gave an new rules option Class Of Minds that the GM could implement, and it was clearly marked as optional. Guess who wrote that book, Steve Long.

 

Now comes Hero 5th Edition with a change to Mental Powers:

 

Ok, regardless of what the rest of the section says, per the rules, all Mental Powers start out affecting a single class of minds. There's nothing clearly marking this as optional.

 

I'm sure Dust Raven agrees with this.

 

However, Dust Raven seems to be saying one of the following things, and please correct me if I'm wrong on this, I just want to know which one.

 

1) By default, per the rules, All Mental Powers are Classless or only one class exists by default that includes everyone.

 

2) By default, per the rules, the GM is forced to define the classes for his campaign/setting.

 

Just trying to figure out which one you believe to be true. Thanks.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

It would be the second statement. Thank you Christopher.

 

Although I'd possibly rephrase it as : By default, per the rules, the GM must define the classes for his campaign/setting and what types of minds fall into each class. If he doesn't, just assume the campaign uses Steve Long's FAQ definitions.

 

And the only part I don't like is Steve Long's FAQ defintions. What's in the rulebook is fine (and would then force the GM to think up his own class system). Personally, I find Steve Long's default suggestion as misplaced as I would find a statement like "the default SFX for Energy Blast is heat".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

I just wanted to thow out an oddball question, a sort of tangent if you will.

 

If I had a campaign where no "Mind Manipulation" SFXwise existed, would any of the "Mental Powers" still be needed? Or would they be null an void for that campaign?

 

Just Curious

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Not voided the way I see it:

 

Magic Arrow: Ego Attack, Does BODY

 

Pheromones: Mind Control, Set Effect (lust for character), Limited Targets (opposite gender)

 

Virtual Reality: Mental Illusions, OIF Bulky, Extra Time, Target Must Be Willing Or Restrained, RSR: VR Manipulation.

 

Truth Serum: Telepathy, Based On CON, OAF Fragile, 1 Charge

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Mental Powers

 

I'm sorry, I phrased that poorly. What I meant was would they even be needed.

 

Magic Arrow: Ego Attack' date=' Does BODY[/quote']

Magic Arrow: Energy Blast, AVLD (vs MD), etc...

 

Pheromones: Mind Control' date=' Set Effect (lust for character), Limited Targets (opposite gender)[/quote']

Pheromones: Transform, Minor (Disadvantage: Psych Lim), etc...

 

Virtual Reality: Mental Illusions' date=' OIF Bulky, Extra Time, Target Must Be Willing Or Restrained, RSR: VR Manipulation.[/quote']

Virtual Reality: Images, OIF Bulky, Extra Time, etc...

 

Truth Serum: Telepathy' date=' Based On CON, OAF Fragile, 1 Charge[/quote']

Truth Serum: Transform, Minor (Disadvantage: Psych Lim), etc...

 

See what I mean?

 

- Christopher Mullins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...