New HG book concept - opinions requested

[proditor]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

Crud...

 

Well, I managed to wipe out my thought out response with a single keystroke, so I'll just say "Yes, I think this is a great idea, and even as a GM I'd buy it in a heartbeat."

[Legendsmiths]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

So far I think I've purchased 10 sidekicks and I only have 2 left. They're like butta.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

The key is to ensure that a FH Sidekick ties in to add-on sales. Enough for the casual gamer to get by on, but for that character that is playing a detailed mage or monk they're gonna want the detailed rules.

 

They still don't need vehicles and bases, because that stuff comes later in Heroic games (or usually). They need to build a character, understand enough of the world to get hooked, and understand how conflict resolution is handled. The fact that they could make a grab maneuver and use the target as a shield is something they can find out when the time comes or by purchasing the Combat Handbook.

 

The same can be said for Star Hero. Give the players enough to make a space opera hero and understand the Terran Empire. They don't need to know how to build star systems or design starships, only how much a blaster costs.

 

This might also be a new direction for DoJ to consider. If all the core rules are in Sidekick, get rid of 5ER. Make Sidekick the core as a loss leader (not unlike the console of video gaming) or at least a zero-sum game. Then expand the hell out of it. Combat. Powers. Skills/Talents/Perks. Bases. Vehicles. Martial Arts. Make those the definitive guides and get away from a single monolithic core. Then have genre sidekicks that are basically players guides for those genres. GMs will buy Star Hero and players will get Star Hero Sidekick. Whether the sidekick rules are included in the genre sidekick book is up for grabs. However, keeping them separate is still worthwhile I believe if the core rules are sold for minimal profit (ala $10). $30 seems to be the going price for games so I imagine a genre sidekick could still include the sidekick rules an be profitable (at Dereks aforementioned standard profit margin).

 

Just let 5ER go out of print an revise the Equipment Guide to include all of the Equipment rules and I think we'd be on to something.

[gojira]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

I think if spells were pulled from a Grimoire it would be best' date=' in the front section, to list the spell, point cost, END cost and effect. Then have an appendix which actually broke down the spell into its rules components. If a spell required a component not in Sidekick then asterik and refer to 5ER.[/quote']

I'll toss in my $2 (inflation) and say that those astericks could be what drives sales of the larger books. Want to know what that little asterick really means? Pay up, sucka!

[Spence]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

I think you need to empathize that NEW Gamers who are intimidated. I for one appreciate have all the rule in one place.

 

As for Sidekick Genre books, I do not know?

 

Good Luck

 

QM

 

 

For me TheQuestionMan has hit the single most important item in the "must have" list. And one that most of the regular posters acknowledge and then ignore in their solutions. Now please don't take that as an attack. Most of you are way more familiar with the inner workings of hero than I am. But I believe that is the problem. You are not seeing the forest because all those trees that are in the way. From what I have read, the gist is to have a version of SideKick that also contains other source material related to a "genre". For Fantasy Sidekick that would include a Bestiary, Spell Grimoire, Equipment Guide, and so on that relates to the genre and contains only items directly supported by SK. You would also have am abbreviated "genre" source"chapter" (vice sourcebook). All the basics that would allow a new player to start, right? WRONG! We collectively keep forgetting that the majority of RPG's that new players pick up and start with, require them to pick a predetermined character which they then get to customize to one extent or another. In D&D a first level fighter is a first level fighter. He may have a few bells and whistles that appear different but essentially a GM knows everything a first level fighter could possibly do or have when he is created. In Hero this doesn't exist. The new player must be prodded across the mental barrier. Mostly that is done by veteran players in person. The Fantasy SideKick should be designed to be able to do that for a group of players that have never seen hero, to include the GM. No one in the group ever played it. In my little corner of the experience world when someone tries "something new" the first time is usually with the GM and 1-3 players. Add an adventure at the end of the book that includes everything even PC's. Use only rules/equipment in the SK. The biggest mistake (IMO) with the Battleground supplements (which are awesome and I have all of them, in fact I have SoB and StaST as well) was being written too big. These are not adventures that a new GM still struggling with understanding the rules wants to tackle. The other mistake was saying that the adventure was designed for 4-6 PC of "standard" bla bla bla. The new players can read that a standard PC has X points, but they have no idea of game '"balance". Many people who quit before they ever really get started use reasons like, "the PC's die too quickly", "the PC's can't be hurt", and so on. But since they didn't have anyone to show them how to created a "balanced" PC they got it wrong and decide the system was too much work.

 

So add an adventure. For FSK make it a dungeon crawl but right in the first paragraph say "this adventure is not to do great roleplay, but rather to demonstrate how hero works. There will be fighting and lockpicking but alas no great storyline. Instead you can "kick the tires and take it for a spin". So you make a basic "dungeon" designed to exercise all the capabilities of the pre-generated "standard" PC's. The sidebars of the GM's text would include the explanation of how to do what is required. For instance when the party come to the "locked door" the sidebar next to the room/door description would have a "so you want to pick a lock" box. In the box it would have a page ref but also walk the GM though the process using the pre-gens stats. For the PC's don't use the standard way of writing them into the book. Instead have the write-up use a character sheet layout that mirrors the blanks included in the book just like the FireBrand example in SK.

 

What that all gets you is the ability of the new players to sit down "kick the tires and take it for a spin" and have a little fun without having to spend too much time. Write the adventure itself with many helpful hints to the new GM. That way you will be able to reduce the constant stopping to flip through rulebooks that plagues groups with new groups. As the new GM is running the sidebars contain shorthand help for all the rule related events.

 

Instead of:

PC #1: "My thief wants to pick the lock."

GM: "OK, what is your….ummm…wait a second…" flip flip flip

 

It is:

 

PC #1: "My thief want to pick the lock."

GM: "OK, ummm…"

 

(glances at side bar and reads "so you want to pick a lock? Remember Drago has a Lockpicking skill of 13-, his picks give him a +1 making the roll 14-, but the lock itself is well constructed and has a difficulty of -3. Drogo therefore needs a roll of 11- to pick the lock."

 

"what is your thief's lockpick skill"

PC: "13, but I am using his lockpick kit"

GM: "Good that means you need a 11 or less, roll"

 

That is the idea anyway.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

Spence: Carriage Returns are your friend. Breaking up your text a bit makes it much easier to read.

 

 

As far as your impression that the intention is to take SK and add genre stuff to it, thats not what I'm talking about.

 

Im talking about taking genre stuff from the published books on that subject and making a pared down, combined version that is friendly to both the Sidekick crowd and to players in campaigns that use the full rules.

 

The rules Sidekick would remain a seperate product.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

I think Spence makes a good point. While it would add design work, and therefore cost, for Genre Sidekick to incorporate a Genre Adventure and some Genre Staple Characters, the addition of this "play out of the box" feature would certainly help. Adding in some pre-fab characters, perhaps with some customization yet to be comnpleted ("pick one from column A, 2 from Column B and 4 from Column C"), would also make sense from this perspective.

 

As Spence says, no great storyline is needed. FH can be a fairly standard dungeon crawl. Champions might be a burglary, some investigation and a wrapup fight at the villain's hideout. This would not be dissimilar to the inclusion of Viper's Nest in some early Champions products. But, as Spence notes, it should showcase the mechanics of the system, not the storytelling ability of the author or subtle tricks within the system.

[Spence]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

Hugh Neilson

 

Exactly what I was meaning in my own babbling way.

 

[note carriage returns ]

 

Killer Shrike

 

You were right! They are my friends

 

And I can see keeping the SideKick and a "Genre"SideKick as separate products would be a better overall way of doing it.

[zornwil]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

I think Spence makes a good point. While it would add design work, and therefore cost, for Genre Sidekick to incorporate a Genre Adventure and some Genre Staple Characters, the addition of this "play out of the box" feature would certainly help. Adding in some pre-fab characters, perhaps with some customization yet to be comnpleted ("pick one from column A, 2 from Column B and 4 from Column C"), would also make sense from this perspective.

 

As Spence says, no great storyline is needed. FH can be a fairly standard dungeon crawl. Champions might be a burglary, some investigation and a wrapup fight at the villain's hideout. This would not be dissimilar to the inclusion of Viper's Nest in some early Champions products. But, as Spence notes, it should showcase the mechanics of the system, not the storytelling ability of the author or subtle tricks within the system.

Yes, I think KS' idea is similar to the "complete game in a box" idea that has been touted prior, and I think that has a lot of merit, whether in the manner KS presented or as Spence/others have (acknowledging the differences in approach). But I do think that going all the way and putting in an adventure and requisite supporting material makes it the easiest/best intro without requiring much work, as you state.

[Guest Admiral C]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

I was unable to comment on this thread a few days so I wanted to weigh in before it too much time had passed. I do agree that creating genre specific sidekick versions would detract from the main HERO line.

 

I'm still mildy annoyed about my copy of the equipment guide not 'any' new material in it. I assumed it would folow the model of the GURPS Ultra/High tech books as the default Sci-fi book (Star HERO) seemed to develop the ATRI index for just such a purpose. Granted I knew the book would be mostly reprints but I assumed at least 20-30 new equipment to fill in underutilized tech niches (like CyberHERO stuff for 5th). Also granted that it may have even stated that it would all be pre-printed material and I missed it. Oops.

 

What the EG has to do with specific sidekick genre books is that with one for every major genre (a tough choice to make what constitutes "major") a great amount of HERO data will be reprinted from book to book, I know I will think heavily before I buy a book that is compiled reprints, their really more valuable to groups that have regular HERO games, especially those group that have them in different genres. Those who have the sidekick version may not want to pay out money that will negate the need for their previous investment, and that's if their not intimidated by the far larger books.

 

Your right to assume that only GMs by the majority of the books anyway, genre sidekicks still won't find their way in players hand because they still have info that players don't need even if it's containted in a smaller page count. IMHO the current generic sidekick is as close as you can get to having a HERO players handbook.

 

If really wanted to do it though I could certainly see keeping the generic sidekick and publishing reprints by genre no bigger than say the HERO resource guide. Give it a glossy cardboard cover and assume they have the generic sidekick. Then you would have a reprint that may interest a GM too. Like if you made one for the Fantasy HERO/Turakian age it would have most of the package deals (racial and occupational), an equipment list, language list, quick break down for the westerlands reigon (or whaterever reigon Turakian age and the city featured in the Valdorian age overlap), break down of HERO products either by index or chart. The spells would be a special case, it would be a large chart detailing college, brief effects (non-stated), page number and book.

 

The thin would be to make these come out a little cheaper than sidekick, maybe 8.99 or so and make bundles centered on opposites a Star Hero/Fantasy hero resource bundle.

 

Adm

[Lord Liaden]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

I may be wrong, but doesn't the Equipment Guide include a chapter on poisons that's new?

[pinecone]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

LL, as far as I know ...yes. At least it was new to me...

[Black Rose]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

SK is a pared down version of 1 book -- the main rulebook. That means there is only one migration path there -- if SK entices a purchase of the full rulebook that is a successful migration pattern. However, the resolution of a particular person migrating is a simple yes/no. They either upsize to one book or they don't.

 

The genre specific SK's would be combinations of content from SEVERAL books. In the Fantasy scenario, if relevant portions from Turakian Age, the Grimoires, MMM, and more functional portions of the Fantasy HERO Phonebook (like equipment lists) are included, then the migration path from SK is not on/off. There are numerous opportunities to realize an upsize to a full product from each genre SK. Some players might get hooked on the Magic stuff and go buy the Grim's, another might like the monster stuff and be enticed to buy MMM, another might get into the setting and get TA for the full scoop and info on the rest of the world, and a few might decide to pick up FH. Some might get several.

 

The opportunities for additional sales are much greater in that scenario.

 

And they should include a bit in the sidebar that says something like, "If you enjoyed the spells mentioned here, and would like to see more, check out Fantasy Grimoire. If you liked the setting we used here, and want to know more about Kal-Turak the Ravager, check out Turakian Age. If you..." See what I mean? Make sure they know that, in addition to coming up with wonderful things on their own, they can always buy these nifty, already-written books, chock full of ideas to use and play with.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

"Too many cooks spoil the broth."

 

If you want to write the book but don't want to do it yourself, get one or two people together to help. The more people you add, the harder it will be to read. I think two people should be the most working together on a book unless you have a very experienced editor who knows exactly what he wants to see and will be doing the final rewrite to give it a single voice.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

I may be wrong' date=' but doesn't the [i']Equipment Guide[/i] include a chapter on poisons that's new?

And weapons of mass destruction.

[tesuji]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

I think its a wonderful idea. After all, in my experience most people want a GAME to start with when the pick up a new system.

 

I would definitely make sure a brief adventure is included.

 

Also, I would perhaps want to add a star heroes alien wars product.

[Guest Admiral C]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

I may be wrong' date=' but doesn't the [i']Equipment Guide[/i] include a chapter on poisons that's new?

 

Huh, I thought there were posion rules already in Fantasy HERO. I guess the books so massive it's hard to believe they would miss something like that. Ah well. BTW I don't consider WMD's "equipment" in a conventional sense. I was more focused on commenting on the lack of near future equipment.

 

My comparison still stands though that investing in books that reprint information from book to book just makes the buyer have to decide to take the high road or the low road when it comes to his personal collection.

 

Adm

[ghost-angel]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

"Too many cooks spoil the broth."

 

If you want to write the book but don't want to do it yourself, get one or two people together to help. The more people you add, the harder it will be to read. I think two people should be the most working together on a book unless you have a very experienced editor who knows exactly what he wants to see and will be doing the final rewrite to give it a single voice.

 

They approach I plan to use is to get a group, compile what should go in, what will go in and then assign sections to be written (effectively a chapter/section will only be written by two people: The Writer and The Editor.) so you'll have multiple writers with one editor to try and pull it all together.

 

As for experience at doing this ... welp, there's only one way to get experience. Do It.

[BigJackBrass]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

It's certainly a good idea for beginners, but probably only for beginners who are picking up a game with the intention of running it for friends as an entry into roleplaying. If they play at a club or are moving on from other games then I would expect either someone there to be able to introduce them to the system, or else if they've played other games then HERO is not especially difficult to grasp. Possibly quite expensive, depending on the supplements you choose, but very simple at its heart.

 

If there were to be a Pulp Sidekick, something playable out of the box with rules and adventures included, or Champions Sidekick compiled in a similar way, then wouldn't that just be Justice, Inc. or the original Champions? It seems unlikely to me that the company would reverse the current approach and go back to packaging games the way they did twenty years ago.

[MitchellS]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

If there were to be a Pulp Sidekick' date=' something playable out of the box with rules and adventures included, or [i']Champions Sidekick[/i] compiled in a similar way, then wouldn't that just be Justice, Inc. or the original Champions? It seems unlikely to me that the company would reverse the current approach and go back to packaging games the way they did twenty years ago.

In business there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking one step backward if it allows you to take 2, or more, steps forward later. I know one of Derek's original problems with the idea was that it seemed as though Hero was going back in time 15 years by producing a Champions Sidekick but sometimes you need to ride the wave and sometimes you need to paddle against it. In the RPG world all-in-one books, which are then expanded upon later, are the norm. It's just easier to see Hero ride the wave them paddle against it.

 

Almost every day on the M&M forum a Champions player shows up saying he has left Champions for M&M. DOJ needs to find some way to attract new players before only the die-hard fan-boys are left playing Hero.

[Fox1]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

Almost every day on the M&M forum a Champions player shows up saying he has left Champions for M&M.

 

Really?

 

I need to take a look at M&M it seems...

[MitchellS]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

Really?

 

I need to take a look at M&M it seems...

You're a crunch maniac. M&M is the last thing in the world that would interest you.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

You're a crunch maniac. M&M is the last thing in the world that would interest you.

 

Beat me to it!

 

When I read M&M, it read like "Champions Lite" to me. Aot of the same concepts, and a lot of narrative that could have been quiotes from a Hero book, but far less granularity.

[MitchellS]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

Beat me to it!

 

When I read M&M, it read like "Champions Lite" to me. Aot of the same concepts, and a lot of narrative that could have been quiotes from a Hero book, but far less granularity.

2.0 has a lot of changes. It's even more Hero-like now. It's almost as if GR was targeting Hero fans when they rewrote the rules. I don't believe there's much you can't do in M&M now that you can in Hero. But if you like crunch Hero is still the way to go.

[Fox1]

Re: New HG book concept - opinions requested

 

You're a crunch maniac. M&M is the last thing in the world that would interest you.

 

Is that the difference drawing people away from Champions? If so, pity.

 

Did some searching on the web, there isn't much of a product line, and given how long it's been out that's not a good sign. Only one adventure, a city setting, a gadget book... yawn.

 

I was hoping for a good line of adventures that I could steal. Oh well.