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New Power: Invulnerability


Trebuchet

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Mentor, Blackjack and I have been kicking this idea around, and we thought we'd post it for input from Herodom Assembled:

 

Invulnerability: (Stop Sign) This Power protects the character from taking BODY from any Physical and/or Energy Attack. This defense is fully Resistant and provides equal protection from both Killing and non-Killing attacks. Penetrating, Armor Piercing, and NND attacks which do BODY based on Energy or Physical attacks have no effect. It does not protect the character from the associated Stun from an attack even though it provides total protection from BODY damage. It does not protect the character in any way from Drains, Transforms, and the like. Invulnerability does not provide any protection from Susceptabilities or Side Effects. Invulnerability costs no END to use, and is a Persistant Power.

 

This Power may not be applied to any Automaton or character which takes the "Cannot Be Stunned" or "Takes No Stun" Powers, and is not recommended for vehicles or bases. GMs should exercise caution as this Power may be unbalancing in some campaigns.

 

Cost: Each individual category (Physical or Energy) costs 30 points.

 

One other thing we considered was requiring a single type of attack the character be vulnerable to, similar to that required for Desolidification. The way we see it, the only real ability invulnerability provides in the comics is to prevent the character from being physically harmed or killed by sheer force. Even Superman, virtually the poster child for invulnerability, gets hit hard enough to take Stun or be Stunned.

 

Comments and suggestions are of course welcome. :)

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

Mentor, Blackjack and I have been kicking this idea around, and we thought we'd post it for input from Herodom Assembled:

 

Invulnerability: (Stop Sign) This Power protects the character from taking BODY from any Physical and/or Energy Attack. This defense is fully Resistant and provides equal protection from both Killing and non-Killing attacks. Penetrating, Armor Piercing, and NND attacks based on Energy or Physical attacks have no effect. It does not protect the character from the associated Stun from an attack even though it provides total protection from BODY damage. It does not protect the character in any way from Drains, Transforms, and the like. Invulnerability does not provide any protection from Susceptabilities or Side Effects.

 

This Power may not be applied to any Automaton or character which takes the "Cannot Be Stunned" or "Takes No Stun" Powers, and is not recommended for vehicles or bases. GMs should exercise caution as this Power may be unbalancing in some campaigns.

 

Cost: Each individual category (Physical or Energy) costs 30 points.

 

One other thing we considered was requiring a single type of attack the character be vulnerable to, similar to that required for Desolidification. The way we see it, the only real ability invulnerability provides in the comics is to prevent the character from being physically harmed or killed by sheer force. Even Superman, virtually the poster child for invulnerability, gets hit hard enough to take Stun or be Stunned.

 

Comments and suggestions are of course welcome. :)

 

OK I like that idea. I just might steal it and use it in a new game I am going to start soon.

 

you have rep on the way, if I can give it. I could and did.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

its not a bad idea but its too cheap, considering 75% resistant damage reduction costs more.

i'd be inclined just to use 100% Damage Reduction at twice the cost of 75%.

Damage Reduction provides defenses against both Stun and BODY, and even against NND attacks. Since this new Power provides defenses only against BODY damage, we think the costs are in line with its utility. Many bricks and high-DEF characters never take BODY at all, since in a typical campaign with 12DC caps a character with 25+ defenses won't take BODY even from a maxed out 12d6 or 4d6K roll. (Stun, of course, is another thing entirely.) Even at 30 points per, it's far too expensive to be practical in a non-supers game.
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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

Considering how hard it is to take body damage in Champions I'm not sure if the power is useful or not for that genre. Always worth a test run though. :)
Actually, my concern was that it might be too expensive for its actual utility in Champions. But we figured it needed to be expensive enough that not every brick or EB will be buying it.
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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

Actually' date=' my concern was that it might be too expensive for its actual utility in Champions. But we figured it needed to be expensive enough that not every brick or EB will be buying it.[/quote']

The power only seems useful in selective circumstances. Most Champions bricks are going to have 30-40 pd/ed. That means they bounce body on basically all normal attacks [terminal falling is 30d6]. They are probably also going to have 20-40 resistant, meaning up to 7d6 killing will bounce too. So invulnerability is really only useful for those rare times someone gets thrown into a situation of unusual instant death. Things like getting thrown into the sun, etc. Most of the time that's pretty rare, IMO.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

The other thing this power does is effectively make all PD/ED vs STUN ONLY. Which we've normally treated as a limitation on the power (we've allowed PD vs STUN Only to simulate those who can get broken bones that just don't seem to get worn down or knocked out).

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

Damage Reduction provides defenses against both Stun and BODY' date=' and even against NND attacks. Since this new Power provides defenses only against BODY damage, we think the costs are in line with its utility. Many bricks and high-DEF characters never take BODY at all, since in a typical campaign with 12DC caps a character with 25+ defenses won't take BODY even from a maxed out 12d6 or 4d6K roll. (Stun, of course, is another thing entirely.) Even at 30 points per, it's far too expensive to be practical in a non-supers game.[/quote']

 

I don't have my rulebook with me, but IIRC Damage Reduction only applies to either Stun or BODY, and you'd have to pay extra to get both in one package.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

I don't have my rulebook with me' date=' but IIRC Damage Reduction only applies to either Stun or BODY, and you'd have to pay extra to get both in one package.[/quote']Damage Reduction is either Resistant or Non-Resistent. Is that what you are refering to?
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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

Invulnerability sounds to me like it would be good for building a god-like immortality SFX character, who was basically normal in all ways, except that it could never be wounded or killed. Am I interpreting this correctly?

 

If so, it would be great for characters like... I don't know, the Beyonder? Does anyone think Superman would qualify to have this Power? Maybe.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

If so' date=' it would be great for characters like... I don't know, the Beyonder? Does anyone think Superman would qualify to have this Power? Maybe.[/quote']

 

I think he does. I mean... come on. He only ever gets STUNned. Way too much STUN can kill, of course -- it starts doing BODY -- which would explain why Superman gets woozy and falls unconscious fighting Doomsday or that Sun guy in Superman IV, and they continue to beat on him, almost killing him... yet no wounds ever really appear.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

Sorry. Automatic log-out messed up my preview-edit-submit sequence. I'm revising my message and will add the result to the end of this.

 

EDIT:

 

I will call 0% DR at zero cost the, "zero point." If you do not include the zero point and plot log-base-2 of cost vs. DR (or damage=100%-DR), it is linear. This would indicate that 100% DR should indeed cost double what 75% DR does. However, if you include the zero point this breaks completely. If you plot cost vs. log-base-2 of damage (100%-DR), the zero point fits nicely but the cost at 25% does indeed fall (a little) off the line (as previously pointed out). This indicates that 100% DR should be infinitely expensive and the actual cost of 25% should be about 8.3 using your numbers (I believe the costs you use are for Non-Resistant DR, which would not seem to be very useful for an invlunerability power; I think the Resistant costs are 15/30/60, and this model would indicate that 25% Resistant DR should cost about 12.5 instead of 15).

 

In any case both models have inconsistencies if you use all existing standard costs, including the zero point.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

The power only seems useful in selective circumstances. Most Champions bricks are going to have 30-40 pd/ed. That means they bounce body on basically all normal attacks [terminal falling is 30d6]. They are probably also going to have 20-40 resistant' date=' meaning up to 7d6 killing will bounce too. So invulnerability is really only useful for those rare times someone gets thrown into a situation of unusual instant death. Things like getting thrown into the sun, etc. Most of the time that's pretty rare, IMO.[/quote']That was our thinking as well. It's only intended to represent a fairly rare Power in the comics; and one of limited utility in most campaigns.

 

Think about how else you could simulate this at the same cost: Buy 60 points worth of Armor (40 rPD or rED), then Harden it X2 (+½) for a total cost of 90 Active Points. Then apply "Only vs. BODY" for a -2 Limitation (Since BODY is 1/3 or less of the effect of most attacks which do BODY, I think -2 is reasonable.). 90/3 = 30 and you've only spent 30 Real Points to be functionally immune to almost any campaign's damage limits. 15d6 AP attack? Laugh at it; or at least at the BODY. (The 52 STUN average might be another story.) 8d6 RKA? Ignore the BODY from all but near-perfect rolls.

 

The only thing our proposed Invulnerability does is provide a way for characters with the right concept to ignore the upper end of the BODY damage scale, at stratospheric levels of BODY damage where no other player character or ordinary megavillain is going to get near. Survive being at Ground Zero of a strategic nuke. Save Earth from the Death Star beam by blocking it with your body. This is simply a way to represent that kind of defense; and will be of strictly limited use for most bricks in a Champions game.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

That's not too bad' date=' actually. I personally think people are too afraid of invulnerability in the system. In and of itself invulnerability generally wouldn't prevent you from being humiliated, manipulated, Entangled, Grabbed, thrown into another dimension, eye-poked, mind-raped, Transformed, stumped, grossed out, or zoinked . :D[/quote']That's exactly why we didn't allow Invulnerability to protect against Adjustment Powers...

 

"Sure you're invulnerable, Überbrick, but thanks to my patented Chango-Rayâ„¢ you're now an invulnerable turnip!" :eg:

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

75% fully resistant damage reduction that only applies to BODY damage costs 40 points. 5er p 144.
I would not be adverse to Invulnerability costing 40 points. I think it's too expensive at 50. (And applying only a -½ Limitation to Damage Reduction "Only vs. BODY" is absurdly low. There is no way "Only vs BODY" has the same value as "Only vs Stun" within the context of a typical game. "Only vs Stun" is waaaaay more useful.)

 

Can I ask the need this power addresses?
Lack of an explicit "Invulnerability" Power is a criticism often directed at Hero from players of other systems. I'm tired of dancing around the concept of invulnerability with bastardized constructs such as "Desolidification; Only to Protect vs BODY." Why not actually create such a Power; particularly if it can be done in a way that is consistent with the source material and is not unbalancing? At the very least it's an interesting discussion.
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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

I don't disagree....but....

 

Building the example power (40armour, etc...) would mean that for anyone unlikely to ever take 40+Body damage (a 350 point campaign, say) it would be cheaper to buy the power as armour, and for anyone in a campaign where such damage was commonplace it would be a complete bargain.

 

My concern is more with fixed cost powers in general than this construct in particular.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

I don't disagree....but....

 

Building the example power (40armour, etc...) would mean that for anyone unlikely to ever take 40+Body damage (a 350 point campaign, say) it would be cheaper to buy the power as armour, and for anyone in a campaign where such damage was commonplace it would be a complete bargain.

 

My concern is more with fixed cost powers in general than this construct in particular.

Many (probably most) campaigns have fixed damage and defensive caps. This Power would allow a character in such a campaign to be practically immune to taking BODY in combat, yet still be within those defensive caps.

 

Fixed cost Powers are always tricky to cost. You have to make them expensive enough that every Tom, Dick, and Harry doesn't buy them on a whim; yet not so expensive no-one ever does. On paper I suspect 40 points is better for this particular Power, but my gut instinct is that 30 is more appropriate considering how seldom it's likely to come up in most games. It's pretty hard to take BODY, especially serious life-threatening BODY, in Champions. (My PC Zl'f, with only 12 PD/ED, has naturally taken a point or two of BODY fairly often during the course of our campaign, but the one time she took a lot, down to -1 BODY, was from a BODY Drain and not a physical attack.) It's really only likely to be purchased by a character whose shtick is being invulnerable; most bricks will just get by with high PD and ED. (Our team's brick, Silhouette, will no doubt stick with her 32 PD/ED, high CON, and Desolidification.)

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

Mentor' date=' Blackjack and I have been kicking this idea around, and we thought we'd post it for input from Herodom Assembled: [i']Invulnerability: (Stop Sign) This Power protects the character from taking BODY from any Physical and/or Energy Attack. This defense is fully Resistant and provides equal protection from both Killing and non-Killing attacks. Penetrating, Armor Piercing, and NND attacks which do BODY based on Energy or Physical attacks have no effect. It does not protect the character from the associated Stun from an attack even though it provides total protection from BODY damage. It does not protect the character in any way from Drains, Transforms, and the like. Invulnerability does not provide any protection from Susceptabilities or Side Effects. Invulnerability costs no END to use, and is a Persistant Power. This Power may not be applied to any Automaton or character which takes the "Cannot Be Stunned" or "Takes No Stun" Powers, and is not recommended for vehicles or bases. GMs should exercise caution as this Power may be unbalancing in some campaigns. Cost: Each individual category (Physical or Energy) costs 30 points.[/i] One other thing we considered was requiring a single type of attack the character be vulnerable to, similar to that required for Desolidification. The way we see it, the only real ability invulnerability provides in the comics is to prevent the character from being physically harmed or killed by sheer force. Even Superman, virtually the poster child for invulnerability, gets hit hard enough to take Stun or be Stunned. Comments and suggestions are of course welcome. :)

 

Nice! My initial reaction was that it was way too cheap, but...

 

If you spend the same amount of points on resistant defense with the -1 Limitation: Only vs. BODY, you wind up with about 40 rDEF in a given category, which might as well be invulnerability to BODY damage if you aren't throwing nukes around.

 

So I think the point cost is fine.

 

-edit- beaten to the punch, this thread moves fast!

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

One thing this power would be good for is to provide a character with the ability to survive obscene amounts of physical harm (like from a nuke) but still not really have it affect most fights. Of course, you can get nearly the same effect with 75% Resistant Damage Reduction vs. BODY damage only...as long as it's not a really really big nuke.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

As you know from reading the "Walking on the Sun" Thread I have an entirely different take on Invulnerability. Since taking body damage is so rare in almost all cases this option seems very limited in utility.

 

IMO the STUN is the problem, not the Body.

 

Hawksmoor

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

Looks reasonable to me. The utility would be lower in Champs games but quite high in non-Champs games. Good for vampires, et al. who are unkillable by normal means, as well as magic spells with the same effect.

 

It's also perfect for certain superheroes, supervillains and even DNPCs who never seem to die, no matter how many times they're subjected to exploding volcanoes or bottomless pits or collapsing buildings. Call it "Ultimate Luck" for heroes & DNPCs who always manage to snag on a branch or land in a hay truck or find a pocket of air. Call it "Ultimate Escape Plan" for villains who always seem to perish at the end of a scenario, but no one ever finds the body. In both cases, limit it to damage that will put the character below -BODY. Charges and/or Activation Roll would also be appropriate.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

That's exactly why we didn't allow Invulnerability to protect against Adjustment Powers...

 

"Sure you're invulnerable, Ãœberbrick, but thanks to my patented Chango-Rayâ„¢ you're now an invulnerable turnip!" :eg:

 

I'm suddenly flashing back to "What will you do now? Your enemy is the world's most powerful piece of candy!"

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