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New Power: Invulnerability


Trebuchet

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

Looks reasonable to me. The utility would be lower in Champs games but quite high in non-Champs games. Good for vampires, et al. who are unkillable by normal means, as well as magic spells with the same effect.

 

It's also perfect for certain superheroes, supervillains and even DNPCs who never seem to die, no matter how many times they're subjected to exploding volcanoes or bottomless pits or collapsing buildings. Call it "Ultimate Luck" for heroes & DNPCs who always manage to snag on a branch or land in a hay truck or find a pocket of air. Call it "Ultimate Escape Plan" for villains who always seem to perish at the end of a scenario, but no one ever finds the body. In both cases, limit it to damage that will put the character below -BODY. Charges and/or Activation Roll would also be appropriate.

That sounds like some IPE as well as a Limitation. The Limitation should be pretty low in value unless you use disabling or bleeding rules, because the only thing that taking Body will otherwise do to the character will be make it easier for something like Drain Body to kill them. Unless the opponents start to piece this strategy together over time, the IPE makes it pretty unlikely the Limitation will come into play.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

Actually,I've been thinking about the possibility of 100% Resistant Damage Reduction.Given the fact that the Active Cost of Damage Reduction doubles each level,100% Resistant Damage Reduction should cost 120 points.

Since the Invulnerability Power is 100% Resistant Damage Reduction that only applies to BODY damage,I'd buy Invulnerability as follows:

Invulnerability: 100% Resistant Damage Reduction,Only Vs. BODY damage(-2) (120 Active points.,40 Real points).

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

That sounds like some IPE as well as a Limitation. The Limitation should be pretty low in value unless you use disabling or bleeding rules' date=' because the only thing that taking Body will otherwise do to the character will be make it easier for something like Drain Body to kill them. Unless the opponents start to piece this strategy together over time, the IPE makes it pretty unlikely the Limitation will come into play.[/quote']

I'm not clear on how IPE would affect this power at all..? It's basically just a "Get Out Of Death Free" card. I might also require a small Limitation "Must be justified by environmental conditions" or somesuch, so the player/GM at least has to concoct some excuse for survival.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

I'm not clear on how IPE would affect this power at all..? It's basically just a "Get Out Of Death Free" card. I might also require a small Limitation "Must be justified by environmental conditions" or somesuch' date=' so the player/GM at least has to concoct [i']some[/i] excuse for survival.

I think what was described effectively hides the fact that the character is pretty much invulnerable. I call that hiding the effects of the Power, so it is the highest level of IPE possible (though probably not a costly Advantage because the Power is one that, like Armor, would have basic IPE by default).

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

I think what was described effectively hides the fact that the character is pretty much invulnerable. I call that hiding the effects of the Power' date=' so it is the highest level of IPE possible (though probably not a costly Advantage because the Power is one that, like Armor, would have basic IPE by default).[/quote']

Ah. That's getting into the whole "what does IPE even mean?" issue, about which my opinion seems to be quite in the minority (read: I think IPE is a useless & unnecessary expense in most cases).

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

Ah. That's getting into the whole "what does IPE even mean?" issue' date=' about which my opinion seems to be quite in the minority (read: I think IPE is a useless & unnecessary expense in most cases).[/quote']

Well, I will admit to not buying it very often. However, the example of a character appearing to take a bunch of damage which was in fact blocked by their armor always seems to crop up, as it obviously will give a significant advantage. You could possibly argue that this should be handled with Images or Shapechange, but what else would the full level of IPE on Armor do? Also, things like focused lasers might be killing someone by destroying internal organs, but have no external indication of damage (one ramification of which will probably be that Paramedics rolls will be very difficult). Having an invulnerability Power while seeming to be on the brink of death strikes me as fitting into this category.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

Actually,I've been thinking about the possibility of 100% Resistant Damage Reduction.Given the fact that the Active Cost of Damage Reduction doubles each level,100% Resistant Damage Reduction should cost 120 points.

Since the Invulnerability Power is 100% Resistant Damage Reduction that only applies to BODY damage,I'd buy Invulnerability as follows:

Invulnerability: 100% Resistant Damage Reduction,Only Vs. BODY damage(-2) (120 Active points.,40 Real points).

While I can appreciate the logic behind this method, I feel that it renders the proposed Invulnerability Power far too expensive in Real Points to justify considering how little in-game effect it is likely to have in most campaigns. 80 Points for Energy and Physical Invulnerability after Limitations is simply too high. Furthermore, having a unique Power to represent this ability means it is far less likely some munchkin player will try to justify "100% Damage Reduction vs Stun" within a campaign once you've allowed 100% DR vs BODY.
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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

Well, comparing the cost of the power to a regeneration w/ resurrection...

 

1 BOD regen per turn, resurrect, 0 END, Persistent, Extra Time (1 turn), Self Only is 60 AP, 22 RP. If it's for resurrection only, reduce to 18 RP. This will work even if you are drained to 0 BOD, unlike Invulnerability, unless the drain recovery interval is bought way down.

 

30 AP for this power sounds like the right ball park; I would not go higher. I might say lower except I don't want to make it too easy to lower the RP cost to trivial levels with limitations. I would require one type of attack that can get through, like Desolid (and like resurrect requires one way to prevent it.)

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

30 AP for this power sounds like the right ball park; I would not go higher. I might say lower except I don't want to make it too easy to lower the RP cost to trivial levels with limitations. I would require one type of attack that can get through' date=' like Desolid (and like resurrect requires one way to prevent it.)[/quote']We originally considered that (as I noted in my initial post), and I think I have to agree this is a good limitation (small "L") on Invulnerability to prevent it from being unbalancing. I'll look at Desolidification to see exactly how that is worded. (That's why we posted it here in the first place - not as the final word, but to solicit input on viability and aspects of Invulnerability we may have overlooked.)

 

In case it wasn't clear from the writeup, Invulnerability is a Special Power, meaning it can't be put in Frameworks without GM permission. That gives those GMs who think a Stop Sign isn't enough authority to prohibit a particular Power a bigger hammer. When I post the updated Power description, I'll include that.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

For what it's worth, I'm experimenting with an Invulnerability for my high-point game. Requires GM approval and GM interpretation from time-to-time in play. But what doesn't? ;)

 

*Total Invulnerability: Within conception and special effects, you can buy complete and total invulnerability to one narrow type of damage. Prizm, the perfectly reflective man, could be invulnerable to light/lasers. Volcanus is immune to heat/fire. There still may be rare times when a special attack could still hurt you – Sonicman may still be affected by Dischord’s special sonic disruptor attack, as it does damage TO sound as much as WITH sound, for example. Cost is 50 points flat – no power frameworks, limits, etc.

 

No intricate calculations to figure appropriate cost, just 50pts seemed about right. Inherent limited SFX, didn't want it ending up costing 10pts or something by being put in EC with extra limits, etc.

 

So you could have Human Torch-type immune to heat/fire, but would still take damage from a fire attack defined as "NND - burns the oxygen away from target". Juggernaut-type immune to "physical" attack, ie kinetic force, but could still take damage from physical category damage like sonics, gas attacks, etc.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

I was going to say we'd need to recalc Damage Reduction in the face of what is' date=' effectively, 100% Resistant Damage Reduction, Body Only. Not that I think it's a bad idea - I kinda like it - but it has repercussions.[/quote']

If Treb is only thinking in terms of his own campaign, I think it's great as is. As he voices, it might even be a bit over-priced (consider - Desol "only versus BOD damage", would people really cost that at -1/4 (32 points) or go lower to -1/2 (27) or even -1 (20)? Depends on the genre/setting, of course, too! In a supers campaign, I might go -1 for that matter. In a "realistic" campaign, no way, probably go with -1/4 given how important lethality is and how significant any sort of Desol is)

 

If this is a specific rules recommendation, it would require a good bit of playtesting and thought. Not so sure I'd go there.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

75% fully resistant damage reduction that only applies to BODY damage costs 40 points. 5er p 144.

 

Can I ask the need this power addresses?

Nice catch, thanks!

 

But I think that's really at odds with Desol at 40, even though you can't affect the physical world. I think you lose utility.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

For what it's worth, I'm experimenting with an Invulnerability for my high-point game. Requires GM approval and GM interpretation from time-to-time in play. But what doesn't? ;)

 

*Total Invulnerability: Within conception and special effects, you can buy complete and total invulnerability to one narrow type of damage. Prizm, the perfectly reflective man, could be invulnerable to light/lasers. Volcanus is immune to heat/fire. There still may be rare times when a special attack could still hurt you – Sonicman may still be affected by Dischord’s special sonic disruptor attack, as it does damage TO sound as much as WITH sound, for example. Cost is 50 points flat – no power frameworks, limits, etc.

 

No intricate calculations to figure appropriate cost, just 50pts seemed about right. Inherent limited SFX, didn't want it ending up costing 10pts or something by being put in EC with extra limits, etc.

 

So you could have Human Torch-type immune to heat/fire, but would still take damage from a fire attack defined as "NND - burns the oxygen away from target". Juggernaut-type immune to "physical" attack, ie kinetic force, but could still take damage from physical category damage like sonics, gas attacks, etc.

In my experience, this seems to work. I do it differently, and my top end of Invulnerability is 30 for a very common/general SFX as in reality nothing is so common that it's going to come up that much (especially when people start to figure out a character is invulnerable - not counting of course TV henchmen against Superman! :D ), but rock on with 50...I would just note it might be a little prohibitive, you might find nobody wants to buy it, ever. That's how my Invulnerability started, then I costed it down too much, then bounced it back up to 15 for Uncommon/Very Specific (e.g., acid, gravity), 20 for Common/Specific (bazooka, water), and 30 for Very Common/General (e.g., heat, wand-based).

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

In my experience' date=' this seems to work. I do it differently, and my top end of Invulnerability is 30 for a very common/general SFX as in reality nothing is so common that it's going to come up that much (especially when people start to figure out a character is invulnerable - not counting of course TV henchmen against Superman! :D ), but rock on with 50...I would just note it might be a little prohibitive, you might find nobody wants to buy it, ever. That's how my Invulnerability started, then I costed it down too much, then bounced it back up to 15 for Uncommon/Very Specific (e.g., acid, gravity), 20 for Common/Specific (bazooka, water), and 30 for Very Common/General (e.g., heat, wand-based).[/quote']

 

Indeed, for a 300pt game, I would be very leery of dropping 50pts on something like this as a player. I established it for a high-point game where I expected the high-end of normal attacks to be around 20d6/100AP. 50pts felt about right. I didn't originally look at it this way, but that's half the AP of what I expected most damage to be in the range of. So, I might set it at a sliding scale for lower-die campaigns - for a 60AP campaign, only charge 30pts, etc.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

As far as costing the power appropriate to the campaign, why not try something new like

 

Invulnerability = 10% of total character cost

 

Just an idea; like others, I don't think absolute costs fit well with all the various power levels people play.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

Maybe I'm reaching but the problem here seems to be with falling damage being nearly 3 times what the average 350 point superhero dishes out. We could just reduce falling damage, I suppose, or.......

 

:eg:

 

Despite saying many times recently that I am against fixed cost powers and invulnerability generally (I just like arguing), can I suggest this...

 

If you are going to do immunity, let us not mess about let us not limit ourselves to normal and killing damage, let’s go for adjustment powers and the whole shebang.

 

Life Support works by preventing you from taking damage from certain things. I’ve never been that happy with Life Support. I mean, if you spend 10 points to be immune to terrestrial poisons and you are bitten by The Rattler whose bio specifies that his bite contains rattlesnake venom, do you take damage just because he paid the points or not? No logic. Silly.

 

Mind you, LS does get some things right. 10 points to be immune to suffocation. Never had a problem with that, really, and it tends to be quite a rare thing anyway….

 

Taking that as a starting point…

 

Taking no BODY damage from a specified source, sfx or in a specified environment say…20 points

 

That would cover damage from a common sfx, common source or common environment, something like fire, animals or, say, roads.

 

Weird, huh, can’t take BODY when on a road. Still….

 

Advantages and limitations

 

Advantage

 

(STOP) VERY COMMON SFX/SOURCE/ENVIRONMENT +1

 

So to be immune to ENERGY Body damage would cost 20 (x+1) = 40 points

 

Limitations

 

UNCOMMON SFX/SOURCE/ENVIRONMENT: -1 Sonics/snakes/furniture shops

RARE SFX/SOURCE/ENVIRONMENT –2 Clockwork/rattlesnales/space

 

Let’s go further and include STUN damage. For 60 points the Life Support stops STUN damage as well as BODY. The same modifiers apply.

 

If you have LS at the 60 point level, for +1 you can be immune to any kind of adverse effect from that SFX/SOURCE/ENVIRONMENT.

 

So, for 60 (+1 for VERY COMMON) and (+1 for ALL EFFECTS) i.e. 180 points you can be immune to energy, no matter what it purports to do or how. You can’t be flashed with flares, burned with fire, knocked back with concussive force, drained with neg-energy. Hell you can’t even be stopped by an energy force wall, you’re immune, baby.

 

Going back to not needing to breathe, that would be 60 points very rare, or 20 points. OK that is twice what I thought was a reasonable starting point before, but I’m not feeling like halving the points on everything else and I can live with it.

 

Personally I’d be inclined to limiting the maximum LS points one character can have to, say 300, but you may have no restraint at all, I don't know.

 

You can group several rare effects/sources/environments to make one uncommon or common sfx/source/environment.

 

This will utterly muck about with really high point games. I don’t care: I never play really high point games :)

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

Nice catch, thanks!

 

But I think that's really at odds with Desol at 40, even though you can't affect the physical world. I think you lose utility.

 

Oh I don't know: I think not being able to effect the real world unless you pay 3 times the price for anything you want to effect it is pretty utility worthy, and then you have an advantage which enables attacks to effect the desolid. Invulnerabitity goes way beyond that....in some ways...

 

I think the thing I don't get about this particular iteration of the power is the fact that it is limited to BODY. I mean, the way I see it, if it can hurt you, enough of it can kill you. You are not invulnerable to fire if wading through it you keep going 'ow! ouch! ooh!' then pass out. I mean your flesh may not actually burn but it is getting to you somehow. Even if it heats you until the chemical processes no longer work, you are going to die. I can't think of a single example of a character that takes damage but just can't be killed. Some might resurrect, but then there is a power to do that. In fact you could do this type of invulnerability with resurrection, couldn't you, and probably cheaper. If you are taking BODY damage you'll be taking far more stun...

 

Also, if you have invulnerability to BODY damage you can apply a -1/2 limitation to all your other defences 'only to stop STUN damage'. That would sure save a lot of points....maybe 30 or more....

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

Also, if you have invulnerability to BODY damage you can apply a -1/2 limitation to all your other defences 'only to stop STUN damage'. That would sure save a lot of points....maybe 30 or more....

 

And sell back 9 Body as well.

 

Most of the bricks I've played with Hardened defenses have never taken a single point of Body, except when faced with NND Does Body attacks or similar.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

I think the thing I don't get about this particular iteration of the power is the fact that it is limited to BODY. I mean, the way I see it, if it can hurt you, enough of it can kill you. You are not invulnerable to fire if wading through it you keep going 'ow! ouch! ooh!' then pass out. I mean your flesh may not actually burn but it is getting to you somehow. Even if it heats you until the chemical processes no longer work, you are going to die. I can't think of a single example of a character that takes damage but just can't be killed. Some might resurrect, but then there is a power to do that. In fact you could do this type of invulnerability with resurrection, couldn't you, and probably cheaper. If you are taking BODY damage you'll be taking far more stun...

 

This is why I think that my version Damage Mitigation is better. I grasp that is the STUN bleedthrough of attacks that makes invulnerability a moot point. I am immune to Fire guy falling unconscious while in the center of a raging inferno is a nonstarter for me.

 

Hawksmoor

 

BTW Repped!

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

This is why I think that my version Damage Mitigation is better. I grasp that is the STUN bleedthrough of attacks that makes invulnerability a moot point. I am immune to Fire guy falling unconscious while in the center of a raging inferno is a nonstarter for me.
I in no way intended for the Power Invulnerability to be the end all of making a super-tough character. It simply shields him from one particular aspect of damage, BODY. Your example Fire Guy should probably also have LS: High Temperatures and Self Contained Breathing, high ED, and possibly Damage Reduction Only vs. Heat/Fire. Without these he might not take BODY from being immersed in magma or walking through a refinery fire, but he could still suffocate or pass out from pain.

 

Invulnerability is not intended to make a character indestructible or unbeatable.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

Indeed' date=' for a 300pt game, I would be very leery of dropping 50pts on something like this as a player. I established it for a high-point game where I expected the high-end of normal attacks to be around 20d6/100AP. 50pts felt about right. I didn't originally look at it this way, but that's half the AP of what I expected most damage to be in the range of. So, I might set it at a sliding scale for lower-die campaigns - for a 60AP campaign, only charge 30pts, etc.[/quote']

Ah, makes sense.

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Re: New Power: Invulnerability

 

As far as costing the power appropriate to the campaign, why not try something new like

 

Invulnerability = 10% of total character cost

 

Just an idea; like others, I don't think absolute costs fit well with all the various power levels people play.

The problem I have with that is just long-term character configuration/maintenance. But I'm not naysaying it as a house rule solution. I just think there should be a better way for the core game, if in fact it's even something that sees the light of day there.

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