Burning Chrome Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 I'm curious what comic/graphic novels people feel capture some of the Hudson City "flavor". I've never been into reading comics having only read DC Comic's "The Watchmen". I'm looking for some suggestions on titles that might serve to get a GM in the Dark Champions/Hudson City mood. I assume Gotham would serve as a good source of inspiration but I have a tough time deciding which comic/graphic novel set in Gotham would cover the less "superhero" aspects of the city just from the listings on DC Comics website. Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guzalot Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels Try Frank Millers Sin City. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels Sin City is a good suggestion, though it's got a sort of "retro" feel in parts that doesn't fit, and some West Coast-isms that also don't quite jibe. Sleeper might be inspirational in some respects. I think there are two or three trades out for this title now. Same for 100 Bullets, though personally I don't like it nearly as much. Batman: Year One If I think up more, I'll post again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutant for Hire Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels Daredevil: Born Again This to my mind is the archetypical Dark Champions storyline. Daredevil, a very street level superhero has his archenemy find out his secret identity, and then proceeds to try to break Daredevil. Even though it has a guest appearance from the Avengers, the Avengers are portrayed from a very "street level" view of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psm Posted August 23, 2005 Report Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels This might be a bit of a reach but I would suggest, Starman:Sins of the Father or Starman:Night and Day. Although, a bit more high power I like how the writer portrays the city and the protagnist's role in it. Plus, they're pretty good graphic novels. And I second all the previous suggestions too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning Chrome Posted August 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels I saw Sin City in the theatre and it was intense. Frank Miller seems to be a recurring theme in the suggestions so I'll definately have to take a look at the other Sin City titles (are there more than the three from the film?). I didn't realize Miller also did several Batman titles I'll definately have to pick those up. Batman seems to frequent the seedier side of Gotham so I'm sure they'd be of interest. Any particular Sleeper or is the whole series a good read? I'm jotting down the other suggestions to fill my reading list. I'm just waiting for the Dark Champions and Hudson City books to arrive from UPS and looking for some advance "mood reading" since it looks like it'll be monday before they show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels Re: Sleeper, I've read each of the trade paperbacks as (a) Allen got them, and ( loaned them to me when he was done with 'em. I enjoyed them all and don't remember one of them being any better than the others. Since they more or less tell an ongoing story IIRC, best to start at the beginning and go forward, I'd say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psm Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels There's also a prequel to Sleeper called Point Blank. Not as good as the main series but still very enjoyable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredrik_nilsson Posted August 28, 2005 Report Share Posted August 28, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels It's not a comic, or a graphic novel, but I'd recommend Tim Burton's Batman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trencher Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels The Question. Viglante. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhamin Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels I didn't realize Miller also did several Batman titles I'll definately have to pick those up. Batman seems to frequent the seedier side of Gotham so I'm sure they'd be of interest. This would imply that you haven't read The Dark Knight Returns. Run. Don't walk, to your favorite source of Graphic Novels and buy this. In fact, don't finish reading this post. Opinions on the recent sequal are mixed, but Mr. Miller's vision of an aging Batman in a world that has sold out is one of the two or three works that more or less defined the modern genre of "grim & gritty" comics that Dark Champions/Street Level Supers is based on. The 80's era Politics are a bit dated now, but the story looses none of it's magic. x Playing Dark Champions without reading this is alot like being a Sci-Fi geek who has never seen this "Star Wars" thing everyone goes on about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning Chrome Posted August 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels I've been a fan of the Tim Burton movie Barman since it first was in theatres. Keaton was quite convincing as a man with two personalities and all the conflict that entails. The other Batman films, while still entertaining and visually interesting, lacked the grim feeling I got from the first one. Funny someone should mention the Dark Knight Returns. I actually picked it up on Friday and spent the weekend reading about 2/3 of it. It is very much the style I was looking for. I'm still looking for the Year One compilation mentioned earlier, I found it online but not locally yet. I just got my shipment from HERO monday so I've got several "inches" of material to read now. As a side question since I'm completely new to the HERO system how much of what section of the 5th ed rev rulebook should I read before digging into the Dark Champions and Hudson City books? I've played and run RPGs since the early 80's from nearly every line TSR, ICE, GDW, WoTC, WW, FASA, etc so I'm used to the learning curve with new material. However since this system is so modular I'm not sure exactly how to approach the 500+ page monster core book yet as I've only breezed through it to see how it was organized. I want to avoid becoming overloaded with optional systems while trying to sort out the main rules. Are certain chapters considered rules with others more considered reference? The powers sections looks enormous but seems at a glance alot like spell listings from other games, i.e. mainly reference. The DC and Hudson City books look like juicy reads but until I understand the common notations I'd only be able to grasp the flavor stuff I'm afraid. The core book looks pretty dry but I read longer and more obscure books while getting my engineering degree so if a complete read is recommended I'm not opposed to it, just want to make sure I'm not going about it the wrong way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard00 Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels As a side question since I'm completely new to the HERO system how much of what section of the 5th ed rev rulebook should I read before digging into the Dark Champions and Hudson City books? It sounds like you are unfamiliar with Hero rules in general, so my suggestion takes that into account. Read the whole thing. You need to get a feel for the rules before diving into the system. You'll need to be familiar with all the components of the characters (characteristics, skills, talents, perks, powers, disads), and some of the optional rules pertaining to such. You'll want to know about combat, movement, time... Um, I'd probably just end up listing the table of contents. Seriously, plan on sitting down and reading it, even if you're only skimming some sections. I know it sounds like a chore, but it could save you a lot of headache later on. You'll want to familiarize yourself with the rules so you can at least know where to look for 'em when you need 'em. Perhaps someone else has a better approach, but that's my recommendation. G'luck, by the way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethosos Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels Sidekick, at the very least. Or the Player's Compedium, which is shorter and usually a GM's aid. If you got any of those, and you understand them, then you're ready to tackle the larger volume. I would suggest reading the main parts first, then go over what interests you the most. The more you understand the details, the better you'll be at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jim Posted August 31, 2005 Report Share Posted August 31, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels i believe that there are seven Sin City graphic novels, but it might only be six Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mad GM Posted September 1, 2005 Report Share Posted September 1, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels If time is tight, you can scim over a lot of the powers, advantages, disadvantages, and frameworks. But if you're serious about running, you'll have to go back to them eventually. While you don't need to be able to recite the value for an OAF, or all the adders for Mind Link on demand to run a DC game, you do need to know the hows and whys of character points. The index of 5E and 5ER is highly praised for a reason. Frankly, these forums are also an excellent place to get answers to questions as you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mad GM Posted September 1, 2005 Report Share Posted September 1, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels And oh yeah, much of Brian M Bendis work is good for ultra-street level (not Powers, which I would recommend for a Rust Age supers campaign, but the stuff like Goldfish and Jinx) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Negative Posted September 4, 2005 Report Share Posted September 4, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels I'm curious what comic/graphic novels people feel capture some of the Hudson City "flavor". I've never been into reading comics having only read DC Comic's "The Watchmen". I'm looking for some suggestions on titles that might serve to get a GM in the Dark Champions/Hudson City mood. I assume Gotham would serve as a good source of inspiration but I have a tough time deciding which comic/graphic novel set in Gotham would cover the less "superhero" aspects of the city just from the listings on DC Comics website. Any suggestions? Check out "Gotham Central", which focuses on the Gotham City Police Department itself. It gives you a good read, and focuses on the "less superhero" aspects, and when it does focus on superheroes, you see it from the other side of the coin. Also from the aforementioned Bendis, check out "Alias". This has nothing to do with the TV show, but focuses on Jessica Jones, a former superhero who is now a private detective. She still has her powers, but just felt like she "wasn't any good at it." This one features a lot of superheroes, but it features them as PEOPLE, and not as heroes. This has a lot of good storytelling, and often presents the story in a creative and interesting way (when Jessica is hired to find a runaway teen, the artist actually created the teen's entire illustrated diary and then scanned in partial pages). Also from Bendis, follow his run on Daredevil. Not only does this focus on an appropriate Street Level Hero (Daredevil himself), it features a lot of other well-realized street level Heroes (Luke Cage, Power Man) and villians. Furthermore, the stories themselves focus on real "non-superhero" aspects of life. A very cool and innovative story line for what happens when your secret identity is outed (don't forget Matt Murdock is a lawyer), and real emotional stories (Daredevil becoming frustrated that nothing ever seems to change and he doesn't make real progress in fighting crime). Also features Jessica Jones, so even more reason to check out Alias. While I'm not particularly a fan, you might also want to check out the Nighwing graphic novels. Nightwing, the former Robin, is "protector" of a town near Gotham called Bludhaven. As Batman's rogue gallery has become so iconic, through longevity and the movies, (and often both over-powered and over-the-top), Nightwing's foes seem a little "de-powered" and definitely dark (though not colossally sociopathic like the Joker). Very few (none I can recall) epic threats, just city crime. Also a worthwhile read for Nightwing's secret ID, a member of the notoriously corrupt Bludhaven Police Department! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredrik_nilsson Posted September 4, 2005 Report Share Posted September 4, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels Opinions on the recent sequal are mixed' date=' but Mr. Miller's vision of an aging Batman in a world that has sold out is [b']one of the two or three works[/b] that more or less defined the modern genre of "grim & gritty" comics that Dark Champions/Street Level Supers is based on. The Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen... which is the third book? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredrik_nilsson Posted September 4, 2005 Report Share Posted September 4, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels As a side question since I'm completely new to the HERO system how much of what section of the 5th ed rev rulebook should I read before digging into the Dark Champions and Hudson City books? I've played and run RPGs since the early 80's from nearly every line TSR' date=' ICE, GDW, WoTC, WW, FASA, etc so I'm used to the learning curve with new material. However since this system is so modular I'm not sure exactly how to approach the 500+ page monster core book yet as I've only breezed through it to see how it was organized.[/quote'] The first thing you should do is to read the Intro to the HERO System PDF-document. I gives you the basics of the system. When you've read that document you'll hopefully have an idea about wchich parts of the system you'll use. It might be wise to "force" the players to read it too, so that you don't have to start the first session with a course in how everything works. After you've finished the intro document, give the HERO System Genre by Genre a few minutes. This text will help you even more to open your eyes for the important parts (for your chosen genre). If time is tight' date=' you can scim over a lot of the powers, advantages, disadvantages, and frameworks. But if you're serious about running, you'll have to go back to them eventually.[/quote'] Just as Mad GM suggests, you might skip powers to begin with. If you don't skip'em, choose only the straight forword ones to begin with, and avoid the power modifiers (adders, advantages and limitations). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorG Posted September 4, 2005 Report Share Posted September 4, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels i believe that there are seven Sin City graphic novels' date=' but it might only be six[/quote'] You are absolutely correct. Unless I have missed one there have been seven novels. Sin City Sin City: A Dame to Kill for Sin City: Booze, Broads, & Bullets Sin City: Family Values Sin City: Hell and Back Sin City: That Yellow Bastard Sin City: The Big Fat Kill Trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhamin Posted September 6, 2005 Report Share Posted September 6, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels The Dark Knight Returns' date=' Watchmen... which is the third book?[/quote'] IMHO, The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen are absolutely the main influences, but the early 80s run of Daredevil by Frank Miller should not be discounted. At the time it came out, it was very different that anything else out there. A low powered super living in a supposedly silver age world deals very Dark Champions plotlines involving Drug Dealers, Gang Wars, the Punisher, Bullseye, and Electra. Dark Knight and Watchmen were their own One-offs, set in no particulair continuity. Daredevil was part of the Marvel Universe and paved the way for alot of the darker more lethal heroes/villians that would later work their way into the mainstream continuites. Of course, because of this, Dark Knight and Watchmen are easy to pick up and read but the Daredevil stuff is spread across 3 trade paperbacks and has alot of refrences to what was going on in other comics 25 years ago. This tends to make it a harder read. Actually, I suspect that books like these were the reason that Hudson City exists in the Champions Universe but for some reason the main heroes never go there. The "Champions vs. Cardshark" notions where the players ask why the main heroes don't spend a weekend and clean up Hudson have pretty exact parallels to a world were the Avengers fly around in their Quinjet while the Punisher executes 17 year olds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bloxham Posted September 6, 2005 Report Share Posted September 6, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels The Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen... which is the third book? I'd say Batman: Year One has its place. If someone else had written it, it would have been more widely discussed, but, as it's Frank Miller DKR is always going to win out. Moore's Killing Joke is twisted and fabulous as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard00 Posted September 6, 2005 Report Share Posted September 6, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels While not as dark as some, I thought "Green Arrow: The Longbow Hunters" had much to offer the Dark Champions genre. Some great characterization and a nice story. Joe-Bob says check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhamin Posted September 6, 2005 Report Share Posted September 6, 2005 Re: "Hudson City" like graphic novels So, The Miller Daredevil The Miller Batman: Year One Green Arrow: Longbow hunters Huh, looks like it was a good idea to hedge my bet by saying 2-3. Yep, Watchmen and The Dark Knight returns are pretty much universal, but there were a bunch of other works that came out in the early 80s that really turned comics on their ear. Dark Champions is based on the Zeitgeist that grew out of all of them. That and pretty much everything Frank Miller ever did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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