Jump to content

"High Level" Warriors


Tywyll

Recommended Posts

I'm converting some very high level DnD characters over from my old Campaign to Hero. This is going mostly smoothly. the trouble I hit is dealing with CSLs. How high should they get? What is a "realistic/reasonable" amount for what would be an 18th-20th level character? There aren't many high point NPCs floating around in the main rulebooks to base comparisons off of. I know the Uber-Ninja in Ninja Hero has +10/+11 with all of his stuff active at once. Is this about right? Has anyone played a 75+75 game up to 250-400 pts? If so, where did your fighter's CSLs get to?

 

Just curious as to what other's think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: "High Level" Warriors

 

In the AD&D-Hero conversion notes in the old 4th Ed Fantasy hero book, I seem to recall that Hero conversions got 20 character points per level to rebuild with, out of which one had to buy a certain number of CSLs with All Combat (8 pts each) depending on character class: fighters had to buy one per AD&D level, and other classes had other ratios.

 

D&D3.x conversions work well enough using that guide too, though I think Killer Shrike has some more in-depth conversion guides on his site.

 

I don't recall whether characteristics were transferred free or whether they also had to come out of the 20 pts/level alotment, but I still have the book kicking around gere somewhere so I can find out easily enough if you're interested.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: "High Level" Warriors

 

+1 CSL per 2 D&D Levels. 20th Level = +10.

 

I started with 1:1 but it got outta control fast.

Well, I'm familiar with AD&D 1st & 2nd editions and not 3e, but I remember that the various classes had breakdowns on when their THAC0 increased. For fighters, for example, it was every third level. For rogues and priests it was every 4 levels (or was it 5?) and for mages it was every 6th or something. I'd do something like that.

 

A 20th level fighter would be at about +6 CSL (all combat),or even +7.

A 20th level rogue or priest would be at +5.

A 20th level mage would be at +3 CSLs.

 

Even if you don't follow that particular formula, I'd probably use a sliding scale depending on the PC's class. And I might allow additional CSLs for specialties, specializations, spell casting, and the like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: "High Level" Warriors

 

Here is a general document on Fighters:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion3e/Class3e/Fighters.shtml

and various Warrior Package deals:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/PackageDeals/CompositePackages/FighterGeneric.shtml

 

 

But that aside, the thing to remember about CV is that it is all relative. OCV 3 vs DCV 3 is the same as OCV 11 vs DCV 11.

 

What constitutes High CV in your setting is dependent upon what constitutes Average CV in your setting. Personally, characters in my campaign tend to have a lot of CSLs compared to published characters, so it takes an impressive CV to constitute a "high level" warrior. But that isnt really relative to your setting unless you have a similar disposition of CV.

 

 

Another thing to remember is that on a bell curve the majority of statistical difference comes in the first couple point of variance. This is significantly different from a d20 linear where each +1/-1 is exactly 5%.

 

For example, if a character has +1 relative CV (OCV 4 vs DCV 3 or OCV 12 vs DCV 11 for instance), then the percentage of success goes from 62.5% to 74.1% which is almost a 12% gain. If they have +2 relative CV it goes from 74.1 to 83.8, which is a little less than a 10% gain. If they have +3 relative CV it goes from 83.8 to 90.7 which is a 7% gain. And so on.

 

Thus having just a couple more CV than average gives a net +21.3% success increase, but having 4 more CV than average only gives a net +32.9% success ratio. It is a process of diminishing returns.

 

Extra CV's beyond a couple basically provide insuranace vs other high CV characters, not average characters. If they are higher echelon levels that can be put into DCV, or converted for damage they will more often than not be better served in that role vs most opponents.

 

 

 

So blah blah blah, etc, my recommendation is to determine the average CV for your campaign first and use that as the baseline for where your top fighters end up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: "High Level" Warriors

 

Thanks for the feedback. Unfotunately, I find it difficult to set a "base" CV level for people because the books do so little to create cohesive progression of examples. In MMM for instance, you have the barbarians with their 5 CV, +3 HTH CL. And you have so many types of CLs. While I like the idea of converting a fighet with roughly 1 Overall Combat level per 2 DnD levels, what about partial levels? The character's I've seen built or develop in play tend to have a spread of 2, 3, and 5 pt levels. So overall, how do you determine what their skill "should" be?

 

I think I am frustrated because the sourcebooks, like the Beastiary and MMM have monsters with so few CL, it seems obvious they were made to be challenging to a beginning character, not to an advanced one. I don't have my book on hand, but I think the mighty warrior demon only has 4 CLs... that just doesn't make sense.

 

Anyway, certainly good places to start. I suppose the MMM characters could serve as "base" ideas, as well as the +1 per 2 DND levels. Definately the "average" Warrior would probably have a 12 Dex, and +1 or 2 CSL.

 

So Killer Shrike, where do your characters get to? Just curious since you mention them having such large differences from published characters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: "High Level" Warriors

 

The "problem" with a lot of the published HERO characters is DEX Inflation -- they are given extra DEX to be good at combat instead of Combat Skill Levels.

 

E.G., Ogre in MMM is given 14 DEX, I'd give ogres 8 DEX (IMO, they clearly should have less than a normal human) and 2-3 CSLs. Take a look at dozens and dozens of HERO character write-ups (4th and 5th ed.) and you'll see extra DEX that isn't always appropriate and a lack of CSLs when the character clearly has training.

 

That might account for a bit of what you're seeing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: "High Level" Warriors

 

DEX inflation happens for the same reason STR inflation does. It is cheaper than buying all the goodies the DEX gets you.

 

DEX gets you 2 points of effects for every point spent.

__+0.3 Speed (3 points)

__+1 DCV against all attacks (5 points)

__+1 OCV with all attacks (call it 5 points also)

__+1 with all DEX based Skills & DEX rolls (5 points)

 

It is almost as good of a deal as STR, which gives 2.1 points of effects per point, plus the hard to define in points value of higher encumbrance and lift limits.

__+2 DC (10 points)

__+2 PD (2 points)

__+2 REC (4 points)

__+5 STUN (5 points)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: "High Level" Warriors

 

I agree with Hierax.

 

For characters who are getting better at Combat, I buy CSL's. For characters who are getting faster and more agile, I buy more DEX. Certainly, a 20th Level fighter will probably have a little more DEX than a 1st level fighter, (2-5pts more) but the difference shouldn't be too extreme. Most especially in a heroic level game. I also like Lightning Reflexes, because it allows fighters to react quickly without turning their burly Axe-man into an Olympic-class gymnast.

 

Martial Arts are also important to represent increased fighting skill. They can turn a normal warrior into an outright killing machine! By 20th level, the average D&D Fighter should have at least 30pts worth of Martial Maneuvers and extra DC's. It also represents a Fighter turning basic knowledge of his craft into a system, so that he can begin training others in his own weapon/fighting style.

 

As a guideline, assume a 1st level character to be a basic just starting out 100pt character. Each "level" is 20Xp gained, thus a 20th level equivalent will be around 500pts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: "High Level" Warriors

 

So Killer Shrike' date=' where do your characters get to? Just curious since you mention them having such large differences from published characters.[/quote']

 

I agree with the DEX inflation issue. DEX, STR, and CON all have recursive effects, making it cheaper to buy them instead of various things based on them seperately. Including OCV/DCV.

 

As far as looking in MMM and other supplements as a guide, I generally find that most of the published characters are pretty weak, or inefficiently designed. I rarely use any of them, and when I do I always tweak them.

 

As far as where the characters end up in my campaigns, that varies by campaign and powerlevel, but in general warrior type characters in my fantasy games tend to start somewhere in the 9+ range and end up in the 12+ range with their main attacks after some experience, about 1/3 of which come from CSL's. A few characters with the equivalent of OCVs or DCVs in the 15+ range in certain circumstances are not completely unheard of, particularly among characters using Martial Manuevers and/or Shields.

 

Again, since CV is relative, while that works in my campaigns it wouldnt work in other GM's games if they had a different baseline.

 

As a side note, I discuss effects of characteristic recursion here:

http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHERO/HEROAnatomy.htm#CHARACTERISTICS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: "High Level" Warriors

 

Besides DEX Inflation, I'd also advise you to avoid what I call "Baseline Inflation".

 

Personally, I follow the Hackmaster guideline of "Heroes are heroic and commoners are common".

 

I'm not sure which xD&D version(s) you're coming from but in the pre-3E/d20 era there were 0-level characters and I look at them as being the common normal baseline (THAC0 20, BAB +0, that sorta thing).

 

I have a "0-Level Fighter" as a baseline with just WF and +0 CSL, which allows anyone with an actual Level to have CSLs which represent extra combat experience/training (i.e., "Levels") beyond this baseline.

 

This way I can have a standard "City Guard" or run-of-the-mill "Soldier" of 10 DEX, WF and +0 CSL instead of the 13+ DEX and ~+3 CSL versions you'll find in MMM as a lower baseline to go higher from. i.e., 10 DEX is normal, +0 CSL is normal, anything else higher is exceptional, how much higher is what the "Level" part represents.

 

The lower you set your "Low Level" baseline the less you'll have to give the "High Level" characters for them to feel like they are high level relative to the "Low Level" characters.

 

Well, FWIW, thats my opinion, others will differ. Listen to and carefully consider what everyone has to say and try out a few things until you find what will work best for your own campaign.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: "High Level" Warriors

 

Here are a couple of my rules for conversion from D&D 3.x. I haven't tested them very thoroughly for very high level characters, but mechanically they should be about, "equivalent:"

D&D 3.x                            Hero 5E(R)
=======                            ==========
Dex x                          ->  Dex x
+x base attack bonus           ->  CSLs: +roundDown(x/2) Overall
weapon specialization          ->  CSLs: +1 with suitable Tight Group (3pt)
greater weapon specialization  ->  CSLs: +1 with suitable Tight Group (3pt)

Those I recall well. Others I don't recall exactly and don't have with me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...