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Poisons and Diseases


GAZZA

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Re: Poisons and Diseases

 

Gazza,

 

I give up. We're saying the same things over and over to each other and not getting anywhere. You and I simply aren't reasoning this out the same way and so we aren't getting anywhere because we aren't changing each other's minds about basic precepts here. I would argue, for instance, that LS: Immune to disease DOES let you be a carrier of a disease because the LS protects you from the harmful effects, that's essnetially what LS is there for. The germ just can't do anything to hurt you. You seem to think that it should expel the germ completely. And the idea that "no normal human can buy LS because they can't buy Powers" works both ways if you're trying to buy Power Defense to simulate resistance to diseases. Also, there has been a lot of disagreement over what we're arguing over. Are we arguing over being immune to regular diseases and poisons like snake venom, which is what I thought we were dealing with. Or are be dealing with Super tech, which is a whole other ball of wax. Or both?

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Re: Poisons and Diseases

 

I think the biggest challenge is that poison and disease require some method of getting inside the target to be effective while the game system is modelling external effects only.

 

.....

 

Whew. Okay, this was supposed to be a quick post. Now look what you've done!

This was quite a clever post! I like it.

Gives me some interesting ideas about natural poisons built with multipower attacks in mind... hmmm.....

repped

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Re: Poisons and Diseases

 

I give up.

No fair giving up when you're asking me questions that need replies! :)

 

I would argue, for instance, that LS: Immune to disease DOES let you be a carrier of a disease because the LS protects you from the harmful effects, that's essentially what LS is there for.

I agree with the first part of that sentence, but not the last. In other words - I'm agreeing that you could be a carrier in such a case, since to me I don't see that question has any bearing on whether or not you are immune to it. I disagree that Life Support Immune to Disease is "there for" carriers. Some carriers might have it, as might some non-carriers (ie those who simply aren't even touched by the disease). Some carriers might not have it (being a carrier of a disease does not necessarily mean you don't suffer its effects - you might suffer the effects, but have such a good REC that it doesn't really bother you).

 

And the idea that "no normal human can buy LS because they can't buy Powers" works both ways if you're trying to buy Power Defense to simulate resistance to diseases.

Certainly. I was not saying that Power Defense was better because normal humans could buy it. I was saying that using a "normal humans" argument was invalid because normal humans can't buy either. As I pointed out, though, this is not a strong objection since you could supply a limited (or even unlimited) version of either as a talent.

 

Also, there has been a lot of disagreement over what we're arguing over. Are we arguing over being immune to regular diseases and poisons like snake venom, which is what I thought we were dealing with. Or are be dealing with Super tech, which is a whole other ball of wax. Or both?

Both, sort of. :)

 

Here's my position stated more plainly:

  • If all the immunity buys you is immunity to "environmental" poisons and diseases, similar to the way "LS: Immune to radiation" does nothing against "Rad-Man's" radiation based energy blasts, then I'm fine with it. In a sufficiently high powered game (supers, for example) I'm not even against including the venoms of all normal animals and plants, or diseases such as those caused by the Ebola virus in such a category. To put it another way: if the guy whacking you with the poison or disease didn't pay points for it, I have no objection to your "flavour" based immunity stopping the effect.
  • Once we're talking about attacks that have actually cost points, I'm against Life Support giving immunity. Now, I don't dispute that I can buy my Disease powers with NND: Not vs Life Support (immune to disease). But I can also buy my flame based RKA as NND: Not vs Life Support (immune to intense heat). I wouldn't do that, though. I would expect, if you want to be able to shrug off my RKA, that you had best invest in some resistant ED. Likewise, I would expect that if you want to be able to shrug off my Disease powers, you should buy some Power Defense (because I'm going to be building them with Drain STR and BODY simultaneously, for example).
  • As a corollary to the above, though - if you're buying Power Defense anyway to represent your resistance to my disease based powers, and since it is likely that these powers generate more dice of effect than "environmental" effects, you might as well save the points on the Life Support immunity and just rely on the fact that your Power Defense will protect you from environmental conditions as well.

I hope that's plainer.

 

Now, I am well aware that you could use similar reasoning to remove many of the "safe environment" conditions on Life Support. If vacuum based powers and environments are important to your game, then perhaps it is worth doing this. The same for intense heat/flame, and so forth. It so happens that poisons and diseases are among the most common Drain special effects in my (FH) games, so I feel that it is indeed worth going beyond the Life Support "all or nothing" approach.

 

As always, your method may vary.

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Re: Poisons and Diseases

 

I agree with the first part of that sentence, but not the last. In other words - I'm agreeing that you could be a carrier in such a case, since to me I don't see that question has any bearing on whether or not you are immune to it. I disagree that Life Support Immune to Disease is "there for" carriers.

 

In the sentence: I would argue that LS: Immunity to diseases DOES let you be a carrier...

 

the "that" refers to "harmful effects" not "be a carrier".

 

So you do agree with the last part as well, you just didn't know it. :D

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Re: Poisons and Diseases

 

Yeah' date=' but you know it does work as defense and always had. LS: Immune to high heat allows you to be immune to NND heat attacks. Same with cold, or anything else. It's easy to say LS shouldn't be a defense but it has been for 24 years so far. :)[/quote']

 

Not in the rulesbooks the rest of us have been using. Here's the exact quote from 4th - IIRC correctly, similar language is in both 3rd and 5th:

 

"Even though a character can survive in a certain environment, he will still take damage from attacks with that special effect, due to the sudden system shock. For example, a character who could survive extreme heat would still take damage from fire attacks."

 

So LS: immune to extreme environments SPECIFICALLY gives you no defence against fire-based attacks. Likewise, I have certainly always ruled that LS: immunity to terrestrial diseases gives you no protection aginat attacks with the special effect "disease".

 

there is one exception - I have allowed LS: terrestrial poisons to protect against poisons from normal animals. So if a rattlesnake bites you - protection. If Slitherlass bites you - no protection.

 

Yeah, I realise there's a logical inconsistency there, but there is rules consistency to compensate.

 

cheers, Mark

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Re: Poisons and Diseases

 

This is the curse of hero: there are so many ways to do things that it is difficult to find appropriae defences. The only solution i have come up with is to define how diseases and poisons have to be built. One way to mitigate the effeects is to use damage reduction as the defence : only v poisons OR only v diseases would be -2 and only v poisons AND diseases would be -1. You can make it cheaper by adding RSR (CON roll) and substitute the (points in the disease or poison)/10 as a negative modifier instead of the points in damage resistance.

 

Whatever 'damage' you take is then reduced substantially. Not a perfect defence, but nothing is absolute in Hero.

 

This doesn't address power defence making you immune to cholera. You'd need far more tinkering to address that, I'm afraid....

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Re: Poisons and Diseases

 

You've heard of the -1/4 Limitations "Real Weapon" and "Real Armor" which prevent you from hacking through a stone wall with a sword, or "turning on" a suit of plate armor as a zero-phase action, etc. How about "Real Poison" and "Real Disease"? This would mean that someone with the appropriate LS is immune no matter how the poison/disease is built (RKA-NND-Does BODY, Drain, Suppress, etc.). I suppose there might be other implications that the disease/poison has to behave "realistically."

 

I agree that you shouldn't be immune to all of Disease-man's attacks just because you bought LS: Disease, and that's the SFX of his powers, because thay aren't intended to realisticaly represent actual diseases. But, if the player/GM wanted to, they could take "Real Disease" for -1/4 and try to simulate that disease as accurately as possible, and then it wouldn't matter the method they finally chose, someone immune to that disease won't be affected regardless of Power Def, PD, ED, or whatever.

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Re: Poisons and Diseases

 

Gazza,

 

I give up. We're saying the same things over and over to each other and not getting anywhere. You and I simply aren't reasoning this out the same way and so we aren't getting anywhere because we aren't changing each other's minds about basic precepts here. I would argue, for instance, that LS: Immune to disease DOES let you be a carrier of a disease because the LS protects you from the harmful effects, that's essnetially what LS is there for. The germ just can't do anything to hurt you. You seem to think that it should expel the germ completely. And the idea that "no normal human can buy LS because they can't buy Powers" works both ways if you're trying to buy Power Defense to simulate resistance to diseases. Also, there has been a lot of disagreement over what we're arguing over. Are we arguing over being immune to regular diseases and poisons like snake venom, which is what I thought we were dealing with. Or are be dealing with Super tech, which is a whole other ball of wax. Or both?

 

 

I have two points I'd like to make:

 

1) Outside of a Superheroic game, any GM can reasonably restrict a normal human from buying immunity from all diseases or poisons, but if your GM won't let your Rattlesnake-Handler character have immunity to rattlesnake venom simply because "no normal human can buy LS", then it could be time to shop for a new GM, or start GMing yourself. [If you want the job done right...;)] FRED does say "You can build a modern spy or a fantasy swordsman with only Characteristics, Skills, and Talents (though he may need Powers to simulate some types of equipment or special abilities)." That is specific permission to your GM to permit selected Powers to anyone. There are real people in the real world with abilities that can only be simulated in the Hero system with Powers or arbitrary new Talents. If your GM chooses to deny you the ability to simulate those abilities, you have the right to choose to play with a different GM.

 

2) It is reasonable to interpret LS:Immunity to disease as the ability to expel/destroy the germs, because that is what an immunity to disease usually does in the real world. Being a carrier of a disease that you are immune to is unusual. Being a carrier means that either the infection is unusual or your immune system is. If I wanted to build an Disease that creates carriers of people with an immunity to it, I would attach a "Transform to Carrier" power to it, possibly with NND:defense is lack of immunity to this disease. If you are the GM, of course, you can skip the stage where you construct the disease as a power and go straight to stating "this is what happens"

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Re: Poisons and Diseases

 

if your GM won't let your Rattlesnake-Handler character have immunity to rattlesnake venom simply because "no normal human can buy LS"' date=' then it could be time to shop for a new GM[/quote'] Of course. I said as much in the initial post where I brought that up. (If I want to split hairs, I might point out that "your" Rattlesnake-Handler is, by implication a PC and therefore not a normal human...). My point was simply that the same way you can make LS available as a talent, you can also make Power Defense available.

 

When was the last time you used a disease in a superhero game?
Outside of super powered disease attacks? Never. Life Support immunities are overpriced in superheroic games, IMHO - 3 points (from the BBB) was already pushing it.
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Re: Poisons and Diseases

 

2) It is reasonable to interpret LS:Immunity to disease as the ability to expel/destroy the germs' date=' because that is what an immunity to disease usually does in the real world. Being a carrier of a disease that you are immune to is unusual. Being a carrier means that either the infection is unusual or your immune system is.[/quote']

Ah, no. People carry diseases to which they are immune or extremely resistant all the time! It is why people almost always get sick when they travel. It is one of the biggest reasons the Americas were conquered so easily. You host a whole slew of diseases all the time for which you suffer no (or very minor) symptoms.

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Re: Poisons and Diseases

 

Ah' date=' no. People carry diseases to which they are immune or extremely resistant [i']all the time[/i]! It is why people almost always get sick when they travel. It is one of the biggest reasons the Americas were conquered so easily. You host a whole slew of diseases all the time for which you suffer no (or very minor) symptoms.

Going with prestidigitator here, humans carry a whole host of virii and other diseases with them that their personal immunte systems are unaffected by. The cold, for example, is not a virus but a strain of constantly mutating virus. You can never catch the exact same cold twice, but you can get different colds from different strains. The flu works that way as well. Otherwise immunizations would never work (they're just toned down versions of the original virus).

 

and then there's Typhoid Mary types.

 

Carriers happen all over the place, a good Immune System will help reduce or eliminate many symptoms to virii and diseases to which you've had previous contact.

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Re: Poisons and Diseases

 

Here's an idea. All diseases and poisons should be built as mental powers based on CON. Hallucination, hydrophobia, damage: it's all there AND I like the idea of a high CON making you more resistant. Other effects (paralysis, drain etc) have to be built as mental powers based on CON too. Generally you'll want the damaging powers NND (appropriate LS)

 

At least, that way, players know how to protect themselves from poisons and diseases: high CON or appropriate LS.

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Re: Poisons and Diseases

 

Here's an idea. All diseases and poisons should be built as mental powers based on CON. Hallucination, hydrophobia, damage: it's all there AND I like the idea of a high CON making you more resistant. Other effects (paralysis, drain etc) have to be built as mental powers based on CON too. Generally you'll want the damaging powers NND (appropriate LS)

 

At least, that way, players know how to protect themselves from poisons and diseases: high CON or appropriate LS.

:no::P :shrug:

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Re: Poisons and Diseases

 

At least' date=' that way, players know how to protect themselves from poisons and diseases: high CON or appropriate LS.[/quote']

BTW, should players always know how to protect themselves against all poisons or diseases? Kinda takes the fun out of it, don't ya think? I don't know. EDIT: it also may place a bit of a damper on defining new and creative, "poison," if people can just make themselves totoally immune. Returns it to a count-the-dice arms race in a way.

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Re: Poisons and Diseases

 

Going with prestidigitator here, humans carry a whole host of virii and other diseases with them that their personal immunte systems are unaffected by. The cold, for example, is not a virus but a strain of constantly mutating virus. You can never catch the exact same cold twice, but you can get different colds from different strains. The flu works that way as well. Otherwise immunizations would never work (they're just toned down versions of the original virus).

You are making my point for me. The colds and flus that you are immune to, you are not passing on to anyone else. The only cold or flu you pass on to someone else is the one you are currently suffering symptoms of--the one you are not yet immune to. All of the others you've had in the past--not a carrier of.

and then there's Typhoid Mary types.

Typhoid is unusual. Typhoid Mary, moreso. The ability of rare individuals to transmit typhoid without having any symptoms baffled medical science. Typhoid Mary apparently infected 22 people from 1901 to 1907 before there was enough evidence for the New York City Health Department to isolate her. Thousands of people have recovered from typhoid without becoming carriers.

According to the Centers for Disease Control approximately 5% of people who contract typhoid continue to carry the disease after they recover.

Carriers happen all over the place, a good Immune System will help reduce or eliminate many symptoms to virii and diseases to which you've had previous contact.

 

Here is a different argument: DiseaseMan attacks character Able with a disease. Able, who doesn't have Immunity to Disease, suffers the effects, survives, doesn't become a carrier. DiseaseMan attacks character Bravo. Bravo does have the Immunity to Disease, suffers no effects, but becomes a carrier. The result here is that character points that Bravo spent have now been used to confer the advantage "Sticky", and arguably several others to DiseaseMan's attack. If DiseaseMan's player (or the GM) wants DiseaseMan's attacks to have those advantages, let him pay character points for them.

 

Making the victim pay to grant abilities to the victimizer is so extremely wrong...

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Re: Poisons and Diseases

 

Not in the rulesbooks the rest of us have been using. Here's the exact quote from 4th - IIRC correctly, similar language is in both 3rd and 5th:

 

"Even though a character can survive in a certain environment, he will still take damage from attacks with that special effect, due to the sudden system shock. For example, a character who could survive extreme heat would still take damage from fire attacks."

 

So LS: immune to extreme environments SPECIFICALLY gives you no defence against fire-based attacks. Likewise, I have certainly always ruled that LS: immunity to terrestrial diseases gives you no protection aginat attacks with the special effect "disease".

 

there is one exception - I have allowed LS: terrestrial poisons to protect against poisons from normal animals. So if a rattlesnake bites you - protection. If Slitherlass bites you - no protection.

 

Yeah, I realise there's a logical inconsistency there, but there is rules consistency to compensate.

 

cheers, Mark

Markdoc very well sums up the mechanical simplicity here. What people are struggling over is their sense of how it "should" work and what the terms all mean and how to reconcile to common sense ("What do you mean I can walk in the sun but I get damaged from a 6d6 fireball attack????")

 

It would be intrigueing to create some "invulnerability DEF", all-purpose SFX-based DEF that defeats any/all damage at the scale it exists at. For example, "Invulnerable to Heat, 20 DEF". So any heat attack of up to 20 is shrugged off. Do the same for poisons, most mundane poisons now have no impact although a few serious ones would.

 

Still, we end up with the conundrum, "But I should be able to live in the sun and not pay a bazillion points!" but I think that's also an issue of scale as well as unusually (but not unheard-of, I grant) idiosyncratic need. Another solution is to simply create pure Invulnerabilities based on SFX, as discussed in other threads.

 

But all these do involve changing rules. Staying purely within the rules, the mechanics provide a simple if perhaps unsatisfying way out. I bring up these alternatives (long argued elsewhere) simply because I think it's appropriate consideration, even if its rules change oriented.

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