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Complicate the Person Above

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Re: Complicate the Person Above

 

L Marcus has been playing with dice with my sleep over the last few days. STOP. :idjit:

 

 

 

Stauffenberg is a personal hero, and I admire him. His last words were my sig here for a long period of time.

 

I have only read a populist account of his life/bomb plot. I have been meaning to read a more scholarly account which is on my bookshelf. Are you saying that the government to be created from the coup was non-democratic? Since the coup was instigatated my military men, the government would be in effect martial law?

 

To my understanding (and I recall you probably teach this for a living thus know your stuff much better than me) the Kreisau Circle was a civilian group independent from Stauffenberg's Secret Germany group, with little communication between the two.

 

And I wholeheartly agree with your views of Scientology.

 

Bazza dices with the the Devil for his soul :thumbdown - and Kinky Satanic Sex! :thumbup: - every Friday the 13th! :eg:

 

He uses loaded dice to get some ... :eek:

 

 

Yes, you are right - mixed that up. There was communications between them and ideas flowing back and forth (as much as possible under circumstances of utmost conspiracy) about the future of Germany. His brother had close connections to the Kreisauer Kreis.

 

Stauffenberg was an honest man, but he did also support Hitler far to long in my oppinion (till 1942/43). He did right in the end which counts A LOT MORE.

Still, he is not one of my personal heroes because there were many, many more people who opposed Hitler from the very beginning, even before he rose to power, who came from humble working-class backgrounds - some communist, some socialist, some (social-)democratic or union.

 

In Germany Stauffenberg and the failed coup get far to much attention than the manifolded restistance of the labor movement and ordinary heroes and heroines who started earlier, had greater pains to endure and died as brave as Stauffenberg did.

 

So - I am not so much against Stauffenberg and surely not against what he did but against the one-sidedness the whole resistance against Hitler has here in Germany.

 

Regarding the "future government" of Germany after the coup: They hoped to get rid of Hitler, abolish the SS and Nazi-Party, stop the persecution of jews, make peace with the West and probably continue the war against the Soviet Union - depending on the peace-talk with the western allies.

 

Actually, they question about the "future government" was one of the weak points about the whole group of conspirators: Practivcally all officers were noble-born and had no love for the parliamentary system and would have favoured a state closer to the Kaiserreich. Stauffenberg was one of the less reactionary - he wanted to get the social-democrat Dr. Julius Leber as the head of state. Wasn't possibel - Leber was arrested weeks before the coup started.

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Re: Complicate the Person Above

 

Bazza dices with the the Devil for his soul :thumbdown - and Kinky Satanic Sex! :thumbup: - every Friday the 13th! :eg:

 

He uses loaded dice to get some ... :eek:

Roter Baron fancies himself the reincarnation of Stefan George.

 

Yes, you are right - mixed that up. There was communications between them and ideas flowing back and forth (as much as possible under circumstances of utmost conspiracy) about the future of Germany. His brother had close connections to the Kreisauer Kreis.

 

Stauffenberg was an honest man, but he did also support Hitler far to long in my oppinion (till 1942/43). He did right in the end which counts A LOT MORE.

I think that the reason why as that he was an honorable soldier of the German state, regardless that its current leader was a poison apple. That he kept his honour intack after the Bomb Plot says a lot about his character, IMO.

 

IIRC, Claus and his brother Berthold were present at the funeral of Stefan George, held in Switzerland. Also, IIRC the George Circle told the Nazi leaders the funeral was to be held in the evening so they could have a private service and escape the Nazi's attempt to make a "national hero" and politize SG.

 

It is my impression that Claus held firm to SG as his fuhrer (and mentor) not Hitler. Why else whould he name the military coup Secret Germany and read George's poetry to the group?

Still, he is not one of my personal heroes because there were many, many more people who opposed Hitler from the very beginning, even before he rose to power, who came from humble working-class backgrounds - some communist, some socialist, some (social-)democratic or union.
I can understand that. The whole german resistance deserves equal recognition, Claus is just a natual figurehead, as his action had the most "impact".

In Germany Stauffenberg and the failed coup get far to much attention than the manifolded restistance of the labor movement and ordinary heroes and heroines who started earlier, had greater pains to endure and died as brave as Stauffenberg did.
Agreed. (see above)

So - I am not so much against Stauffenberg and surely not against what he did but against the one-sidedness the whole resistance against Hitler has here in Germany.
Agreed also. I think the movie at least will open people's eyes that there was a German resistance to Hitler and the Nazi Party. The French resistence is more well known, hopefully the movie will go a long way to alert people to the Widerstand. I can recall a few times on the NGD where posters were surprised that there was a German Resistance.

Regarding the "future government" of Germany after the coup: They hoped to get rid of Hitler, abolish the SS and Nazi-Party, stop the persecution of jews, make peace with the West and probably continue the war against the Soviet Union - depending on the peace-talk with the western allies.

 

[Actually, they question about the "future government" was one of the weak points about the whole group of conspirators: Practivcally all officers were noble-born and had no love for the parliamentary system and would have favoured a state closer to the Kaiserreich. Stauffenberg was one of the less reactionary - he wanted to get the social-democrat Dr. Julius Leber as the head of state. Wasn't possibel - Leber was arrested weeks before the coup started.

I was just looking up Stefan George on wikipedia, and his poem (or prose) Secret Germany was a proposed system of government. Did this poem have an impact on the "future government" plans?

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Re: Complicate the Person Above

 

Bazza is William Shakespeares evil twin, Wilfred. The only play that he wrote was "McDeath's potty" but it was never seen on stage because of way too many fart-jokes!

 

Well, my knowledge aboutGeorge is very limited. Honestly, I only heard about him from you now for the first time. From waht Wiki tells me he was very much ambivalent in his reception: People who were zionist AND anti-semitic liked him, his ideas about a "Holy Germnay" ("Geheimes Deutschland" = Secret Germany in his later poem) seemed idealistic elitist and wanted to reastablish a "noblesse of manly character". This idea was likewise reassuring for people with Nazi-leanings and anti-Nazis. He himself did not consider his ideas as a way to form a new state - he was no politician.

 

I think this sums up the political problems of Stauffenberg and his supporters pretty much: We are against Hitler (at last!), but politically we are naive in our idealism and think in grand, but meaningless political terms of "manliness", "noble blood" and "Holy /Secret Germany". Very German in a sense.

 

By the way I agree with you: The new movie will be very successful to show people that there was a resistance in Germany. And if it is only for Tom Cruise. - Thanks for the rep - can't rep you (dah!)

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Re: Complicate the Person Above

 

death tribble was once mistaken for Darren Watts, by Steve Long.

 

@ Roter Baron

Mr Roter Sir,

 

I've thought of another plus for the new Tom Cruise film: the DVD "special features". Hopefully the DVD will come with a second or third DVD and it will have a documentary (or something close) explaining the 20 July plot from a historical point of view.

 

One of my favourite DVDs because of its extensive special features, is The Great Escape.

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Re: Complicate the Person Above

 

Bazza once calculated and invented a popular dance designed to make the wrong people become couples. He did this despite not being a divorce lawyer. It's the principal of the thing with him.

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Re: Complicate the Person Above

 

Bazza once calculated and invented a popular dance designed to make the wrong people become couples. He did this despite not being a divorce lawyer. It's the principal of the thing with him.
Now if only I could find someone to date (never ever had one, and I'm 33. you do the math. ;) )

 

Superskrull took on the who Kree Armada + Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) and won!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then he woke up. :P

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Re: Complicate the Person Above

 

Cancer is a brightly shining cloud of burning moongoose with flappy ears!

 

And if you think that that is weird, over-the-top and nigh-imposssible fantastic what would you say if I told you that said cloud is just a very clever and halfway mundane disguise for his REALLY bizarre look?

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Re: Complicate the Person Above

 

There are some people whom, what ever they tell you, is best taken with a pinch of salt. But for things told you by death tribble you'd best add pepper, ketchup, a table spoon of mayonaisse, a twist of garlic, a dash of 1000 island dressing and garnish it with parsley, bay leaves and sesame seeds.

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