Advantagous sfx

[Sean Waters]

I know we talked about this recently but the thread has been dead a few days and was quite lengthy anyway - I didn't want to put people off, having to catch up.

 

So the question is: to what extent should sfx enhance the abilities of a character by giving bonuses to a character?

 

I would argue that, as a base, given that Hero is supposed to be a system of mechanics with sfx laid over the top and not being integral to the function of the mechanics, NOT AT ALL.

 

It has long been accepted in Hero though that sfx can have inor effects. Start of the rot, I'd say. A concession to sloppy character building.

 

Part of the proble, of course, is the lack of detail that limitations and advantages provide: on a 60 point power, a -1/4 to +1/4 spread is 48-75 points. That is a lot.

 

Thus we have the '+/- 0' advantage/limitation - something that doesn't justify saving 12 points or spending 15. this hole has been filled (to an extent) by the introduction of adders, but the +/- 0 is still with us and, barring a really major change in the system, always will be.

 

Fine. Why are you writing this, Sean?

 

I was looking at the mechanics for grab, and noticed, that 'depending on sfx you can use streching to escape a grab'.

 

What?

 

I mean it is one thing for a GM on an idividual basis to allow a character, possibly with a power skill roll, to escape a grab using, or aided by, stretching. No problemo.

 

What pushes by buttons is the system which professes to have used sfx for flavour, and nothing more (you may want to catch Darren Watts pod cast - there is a recent thread pointing at it) specifically approving using sfx as a justification for piling on the utility. Presuably Mr Fantastic's stretching let him escape but Machine Man's doesn't. Logical, fine, but also a voilation of the principles of the system.

 

Being able to escape a common combat manouvre like grab is far more than a +0 advantage, IMO. It is something that Mr Fantastic's player should have paid points for.

 

I like Hero above pretty much every other system simply because the ground rules are clear. What you do with them once you have them out of the box is up to you, but if you build a character and give it to 10 people, and they all get to fill in the background and sfx, but the powers, characteristics and skills remain the same, they should all do the same thing in game, as far as I am concerned.

 

If the sfx do not match the powers that is a failure of the player to think through their concept, or a good excuse to spend XP.

 

I do appreciate I am ranting but this is something I feel strongly about.

 

Do we want a system that is mechanics led? Or sfx led?

 

Or a little bit of both?...like every other system?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I would argue that, as a base, given that Hero is supposed to be a system of mechanics with sfx laid over the top and not being integral to the function of the mechanics, NOT AT ALL.

(snippage)

What pushes my buttons is the system which professes to have used sfx for flavour, and nothing more...

I think you're mischaracterizing the HERO System here, Sean. While you might prefer it if HERO's base position was that SFX do not affect the function of the mechanics at all, that has never, in fact, been HERO's base assumption. It has always been noted that SFX can have relatively minor effects on how a particular build works, and that's been in every version of the system ever published.

It has long been accepted in Hero though that sfx can have minor effects. Start of the rot' date=' I'd say. A concession to sloppy character building.[/quote']The problem with this line of argument though, IMO, is that it assumes it to be possible for the game designers (or the GM, or the players, or anyone) to anticipate in advance how every possible permutation of mechanic with special effect will work, and to provide mechanics for handling that every permutation. That's obviously impossible.

 

And I would submit that you know it to be impossible, because you post suggestions for brand new mechanics, or radical alterations of existing mechanics, in this forum with a frequency and verbosity suggesting that you believe wolverines will devour your hindquarters if you stop typing long enough to let your keyboard cool down...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I think your brain is stuck.

 

SFX have always been able to influence the game in minor ways. Fire Guy should be able to light a candle, or maybe provide a bit of warmth. Ice Guy should always be able to get a cold drink, or maybe make the room a bit chilly.

 

If Rubberband Boy is slapped in Handcuffs he should be able to escape with relative ease - they would be two SFX of two powers (Stretching and Entangle respectively) interacting.

 

That's how we play the game - you may want to play "Mr. Energy Blast 1 vs Mr. High STR & Entangle Man" but most of the rest of us don't.

[OddHat]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Do we want a system that is mechanics led? Or sfx led?

 

Or a little bit of both?

 

A little bit of both, thanks. Inflexible, non-intuitive mechanics are a weakness, not a strength. If Johnny Hotpants has an EB defined as shooting fire out of his hinder, he's going to lose a few d6 under water, accidently set things on fire, and occasionally be able to roast meat by squatting over it and letting loose. I'm not bothered about that, and I don't see it as something he ought to spend or lose points for.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

"Next on Nightline: Sean Waters -- Threat or Menace?"

 

Sean, do you lie awake at night thinking stuff like this to post, or go over FREd with a hired lawyer, looking for 'loopholes' to make into a press release?

 

 

Seriously, though...while a number of the discussions you've started have been interesting, you tend to start so many of these things I begin to wonder...

 

 

 

 

 

Now carry on with the discussion, please!

[Fitz]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

If we do not allow SFX to have any impact on their associated Powers, then we have to expect that either every user of a particular Power is going to be pretty much identical to every other, or else that we have to be very careful during the Power construction to apply just the right Advantages and Limitations to account for every possible future consideration.

 

Personally, I prefer to just live with the expectation that SFX may have an effect on the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of Powers. It provides a bit of wiggle room that I like; excessive rigidity just isn't as much fun.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

If you really want the quirks of a sfx to be captured by the game rules, you could actually type

 

"(Can do any power trick fire sfx can do with a power skill roll -0) (Cannot do any power trick fire sfx cannot do -0)"

 

after each of your powers, but for most people, this is just understood.

[Vanguard]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I don't know about The Hero System of today but I do know that in Champions (Hero 4th) SFX reigned surpreme.

 

It was all about SFX. Now, you wouldn't get huge bonues or really high powered Advantages out of them but if Firestorm launched his Fire Bolt down the dark tunnel, it would light the place up and if it hit anything flammable at the end, it would more then likely catch on fire (would be up to the GM and dependent on the material in question).

[Utech]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I'm with the chorus here.

 

The special effects are what make the game special. Thinking about exactly what sort of special effects I want when I make a character is fun! Cool special effects should definitely be rewarded.

 

This isn't just about fire and ice. This is about any kind of special effects you can imagine. If my TK special effect is a pink arm of energy that extends from my body and picks things up, that pink arm ought to be able to arm wrestle! The fact that it is pink might help or hinder in certain social situations...

 

I am much more interested in seeing powers interact than numbers.

[Springald Jack]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

What I see the basis of the HERO system being is a freedom from game assigned SFX. I can build whatever power I concieve, but this is not because sfx are unimportant but rather because they are all important.

 

However no matter how good I am at building powers sometimes a particular quirk of how things should interact isn't going to be in the mechanics. That's when the mechaincs get overruled.

[OddHat]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

And to clarify slightly, there are cases when a player will ask for an advantage from their SFX that they should really pay points for, or where SFX impose a limit that should get the player something.

 

I see that as a GM's judgement call. The game designers can give examples, but ultimately it's up to the GM to say "If you want to use your stretching to do that, make a power skill roll. You'll need to pay points to do it regularly."

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I'm not with the chorus here. I can see Sean's point. The fundamental point of Hero is that the mechanics are the mechanics and the system used the mechanics to determine game effects. SFX were to be the added extra that overlay those mechanics and gave the game colour. Obviously the game designers said that particular SFX should possibly provide added benefits and drawbacks but these should be effectively +0 and cancel out.

 

Firestorm might launch his Fire Bolt down the dark tunnel, light the place up and burn anything flammable at the endbut he would also suffer in the rain as it made his fire less fierce.

 

Evens. And all about negotiation between the GM and the player in the spirit of making the game seem more realistic.

 

I think what Sean is concerned about is for some of the SFX stuff being hardwired into the system. Fundamentally it is overlaid just now but the example put forward there hardwires it in.

 

From what I've seen so far people here would like the system to hardwire more SFX into the system. After all - we're here to play powers not numbers right?

 

Doc

[Utech]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I think what Sean is concerned about is for some of the SFX stuff being hardwired into the system. Fundamentally it is overlaid just now but the example put forward there hardwires it in.

I guess I just don't see it this way. If the rule was "Stretching like Mr Fantastic always allows characters to escape Grabs" then a special effect would be hardwired into the system.

 

In my opinion, the idea that some special effects might allow some characters to escape Grabs is just using common and dramatic sense. If I felt a player was abusing this "escape clause" , I would certainly insist that the character spend Experience for an appropriate Power.

 

I would hope that this issue never really comes up because the appropriate Power is purchased during character creation. But if it somehow escaped us during character creation (perhaps Stretching unexpectedly becomes part of a VPP..?) then I would go with common and dramatic sense and allow sfx to trump game mechanics.

[OddHat]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I'm not with the chorus here. I can see Sean's point. The fundamental point of Hero is that the mechanics are the mechanics and the system used the mechanics to determine game effects. SFX were to be the added extra that overlay those mechanics and gave the game colour. Obviously the game designers said that particular SFX should possibly provide added benefits and drawbacks but these should be effectively +0 and cancel out.

 

Yes, of course. Which posts do you see as arguing against that?

 

Firestorm might launch his Fire Bolt down the dark tunnel, light the place up and burn anything flammable at the endbut he would also suffer in the rain as it made his fire less fierce.

 

Evens. And all about negotiation between the GM and the player in the spirit of making the game seem more realistic.

 

Yes.

 

I think what Sean is concerned about is for some of the SFX stuff being hardwired into the system. Fundamentally it is overlaid just now but the example put forward there hardwires it in.

 

From what I've seen so far people here would like the system to hardwire more SFX into the system. After all - we're here to play powers not numbers right?

 

Doc

 

No need to stretch it to absurdity. There's a difference between following the well established "SFX may offer minor advantages and limitations" path, which becomes more intereting with Power Skill in the mix, and going to a GURPS style SFX are built into every power approach.

 

That said, the GURPS system worked well enough, and also included the option of fiddling with special effects.

[ApocalypseZero]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

The way I see SFX are purely for visual references. Now, if you take your Powers/SFX to, for this example 'Escape Grab', then I'd say that it would need to be either a Power Trick Roll or the need for an actual Power. In my way of thinking, there could always be an Everyman like skill for Power Tricks to let players pull off that one thing, but multiple uses for the same effect would result in a power being bought. Maybe even forcing the player to put all his points into such a power until it is fully paid for.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

I'm not with the chorus here. I can see Sean's point. The fundamental point of Hero is that the mechanics are the mechanics and the system used the mechanics to determine game effects. SFX were to be the added extra that overlay those mechanics and gave the game colour. Obviously the game designers said that particular SFX should possibly provide added benefits and drawbacks but these should be effectively +0 and cancel out.

 

Firestorm might launch his Fire Bolt down the dark tunnel, light the place up and burn anything flammable at the endbut he would also suffer in the rain as it made his fire less fierce.

 

Evens. And all about negotiation between the GM and the player in the spirit of making the game seem more realistic.

 

I think what Sean is concerned about is for some of the SFX stuff being hardwired into the system. Fundamentally it is overlaid just now but the example put forward there hardwires it in.

 

From what I've seen so far people here would like the system to hardwire more SFX into the system. After all - we're here to play powers not numbers right?

 

Doc

Actually - you're saying what we're all saying and you're agreeing with us; even if you don't want to. Sometimes your SFX works for me, sometimes against you.

 

We don't want SFX hardwired into the system - neither do we want them to be merely the color of the packaging. The SFX have to interact wtih the Game, and sometimes that means little bonuses and sometimes little punishments.

 

-Sean, we're sorry to administer this HERO Beat Down, but it's for your own good. Please hold still while we smack you around with a wet noodle.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

What? I'm enjoying this. I LIKE noodles...

 

Dr A: yes I do lie awake at night....

 

If you read the first post*, I think I do accept that sfx can and should have minor effects on character powers, simply becasue there is not enough granularity in the character building system to allow fpr very minor effects to be modelled on a point for point basis.

 

What gets my goat is the rulebook handing out sweets like this. Utech says cool special effects should be rewarded: I disagree - I'd rather reward good character design. I mean I can come up with sfx that will let me do virtually ANYTHING (it work by rearranging molecules on sub atomic level. I stop time. Whatever). I KNOW that you can't think of everything when you build your character, so you can use the POWER SKILL if it is a one or two off, but if you want to do more than that, or more often, you spend experience points to bring the character in line with their supposed abilities. That is what XP are for to my mind - refining characters, not just making them more powerful.

 

It has been sais, as well, that this sort of thing is just common sense: if you can deform your body like Mr F, of course you can escape a grab. I agree.

 

Being able to escape grabs if you have the right sort of stretching is 'common and dramatic sense'. So much so that there really is little excuse for not building +2d6 STR 0 END (no figured -1/2, only to escape grabs -2) for 4 points right into the character. The rulebook suggesting that something that CAN be built easily should be given away for free, to the detriment of characters with exactly the same points build but a more reaslistic set of sfx is what makes my blood boil. This is NOT a zero-sum point - there is no balance.

 

Can also just thank Doc for his kind words. Anyone want to form a barber shop quartet?

 

 

 

 

 

*Not that I'm suggesting for a moment that anyone hasn't....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Being able to escape grabs if you have the right sort of stretching is 'common and dramatic sense'. So much so that there really is little excuse for not building +2d6 STR 0 END (no figured -1/2' date=' only to escape grabs -2) for 4 points right into the character. The rulebook suggesting that something that CAN be built easily should be given away for free, to the detriment of characters with exactly the same points build but a more reaslistic set of sfx is what makes my blood boil. This is NOT a zero-sum point - there is no balance.[/quote']

The caveat that isn't stated is that the SFX of the Entangle have to make sense to. Entangle: Synaptic Nerve Shutdown won't be escaped by Stretching anytime soon. Not in a game I'm in at least.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

The caveat that isn't stated is that the SFX of the Entangle have to make sense to. Entangle: Synaptic Nerve Shutdown won't be escaped by Stretching anytime soon. Not in a game I'm in at least.

 

...and it doesn't make much sense to be able to get out of that with strength either ...and to be fair the rulebook does not suggest that the same concession should be given to entangle, just grab (which in itself sets up a logical inconsistency - any while I' at it hy can I not squeeze through small holes and....)

 

My difficuly is this: allowing sfx to rule mechanics actively penalises the thoughtful player who 'wasted' a raft of points building the character in accordance with the concept. Also it give no guidance as to how much stretching helps...is it better to have 1" or 10"? Oddly enough if you are basing it on the use of the power skill then less is best - you avoid some of those annoying penalties.

 

In an individual capaign a GM can tailor the balance so that everyone gets a fair shake of the stick, but actually suggesting that i it is acceptable in the rulebook sets a very bad precendent.

[zornwil]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

If we do not allow SFX to have any impact on their associated Powers, then we have to expect that either every user of a particular Power is going to be pretty much identical to every other, or else that we have to be very careful during the Power construction to apply just the right Advantages and Limitations to account for every possible future consideration.

 

Personally, I prefer to just live with the expectation that SFX may have an effect on the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of Powers. It provides a bit of wiggle room that I like; excessive rigidity just isn't as much fun.

This is, to me, the pure and simple truth, said well. The point being made, I would add, is that we're talking about the game level experience, not the system itself, and on that level is where we do and should "tweak" (even change) the mechanics. HERO is giving some guidance in saying, in essence, "the game level can tweak as it likes so long as the overall effect isn't at around +/-1/4 utility" (not in so many words, but in, to me, clear effect)

 

And to this point, you do raise a legitimate question/issue for consideration - the grain of HERO it is often said by inference is at that +/-1/4 mark, that finer tuning is getting to a level the system isn't meaningfully costed around. However, as Sean indicates, the higher the points related to what we're modifying, the wider and wider that swing in points. In theory that swing shoulid be relative at each power level, but it does betray that at very high power levels, just how solid is this, and is this an indication that the system doesn't scale up at a certain level (of course, just one indication of several, I think at least at SOME point we can all easily identify HERO doesn't work well, whether one person thinks it's at the 10,000 point character level or the 1,000 point level).

[zornwil]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

...and it doesn't make much sense to be able to get out of that with strength either ...and to be fair the rulebook does not suggest that the same concession should be given to entangle, just grab (which in itself sets up a logical inconsistency - any while I' at it hy can I not squeeze through small holes and....)

 

My difficuly is this: allowing sfx to rule mechanics actively penalises the thoughtful player who 'wasted' a raft of points building the character in accordance with the concept. Also it give no guidance as to how much stretching helps...is it better to have 1" or 10"? Oddly enough if you are basing it on the use of the power skill then less is best - you avoid some of those annoying penalties.

 

In an individual capaign a GM can tailor the balance so that everyone gets a fair shake of the stick, but actually suggesting that i it is acceptable in the rulebook sets a very bad precendent.

I think it's a fair point as to the examples and to what degree mechanics can be trumped. I don't know the magic line. The example in this case doesn't disturb me, I would say, though.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

...and it doesn't make much sense to be able to get out of that with strength either ...and to be fair the rulebook does not suggest that the same concession should be given to entangle, just grab (which in itself sets up a logical inconsistency - any while I' at it hy can I not squeeze through small holes and....)

 

My difficuly is this: allowing sfx to rule mechanics actively penalises the thoughtful player who 'wasted' a raft of points building the character in accordance with the concept. Also it give no guidance as to how much stretching helps...is it better to have 1" or 10"? Oddly enough if you are basing it on the use of the power skill then less is best - you avoid some of those annoying penalties.

 

In an individual capaign a GM can tailor the balance so that everyone gets a fair shake of the stick, but actually suggesting that i it is acceptable in the rulebook sets a very bad precendent.

Maybe to you it does. To me it says "Hey, don't let the rules get in the way - if it makes sense to you, go with it."

 

You're echewing common sense in the hopes the book will provide some in the form of iron rigidity. Relax man, really. It doesn't set a bad precendent, it doesn't even set a precedent - it's showing you where sometimes you need to let SFX rule the Game, depending on your judgement.

 

If you can't handle the idea of dramatic judgement on the part of the Players (including GM) maybe you need to look elsewhere for a hobby because it's obvious roleplaying is possibly not your thing.

 

You have genuinely good ideas but sometimes you just go five degrees to WTF with your thoughts - and this is one of those times.

[zornwil]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

(snip)

You have genuinely good ideas but sometimes you just go five degrees to WTF with your thoughts - and this is one of those times.

 

Oh, I dunno, I think he raises good issues even if the angle itself is WTF. Besides, that's Sean's charm and the sort of thing you get with pretty insightful thought, lots of clunkers with the pearls of wisdom.

[OddHat]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

Oh' date=' I dunno, I think he raises good issues even if the angle itself is WTF. Besides, that's Sean's charm and the sort of thing you get with pretty insightful thought, lots of clunkers with the pearls of wisdom.[/quote']

 

I don't see this as a clunker. It is possible to go too far with allowing SFX to trump mechanics. I just see it as a GM's job to prevent this, and don't think that turning SFX into something that have no effect on how mechanics opperate is a direction I'd like to take. GURPS did it by trying to detail and price every possible SFX-Mechanic combination, and the result (for me at least) was even more min-maxing and less intuitive builds. Abberant tried it, by officially stating that your flame blast was "Quantum Energy" and couldn't actually set stuff on fire unless you paid for it. I disliked the feel of that as well. There are things about Hero I'd change, but this at least feels well enough balanced.

[Utech]

Re: Advantagous sfx

 

In an individual capaign a GM can tailor the balance so that everyone gets a fair shake of the stick' date=' but actually suggesting that i it is acceptable in the rulebook sets a very bad precendent.[/quote']

 

I would rather say that it gives a very good idea. In the midst of a long, long passage about combat mechanics it reminds the reader that this is a game and is supposed to be fun. That the cool part of your character is the special effects of your powers -- not the clever manipulation of DCV, OCV, and maneuver plusses and minuses, etc.

 

I am not suggesting that we throw the game mechanics out the window! Both game mechanics and special effects serve the game. Too much emphasis on game mechanics can ruin a game. Too much power given to special effects can ruin the game. Finding the right balance is tricky. The idea needs to be brought up in the rulebook from time to time.

 

And so it is.