Gun write up: .442/450 Solid Frame Wesley Double Action

[MosheZadka]

Hi. My character needs to have this gun (I'm playing a Dr. Watson clone, and that's Watson's infamous "service revolver"). Does anyone have a write up for this gun?

 

Thanks.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Gun write up: .442/450 Solid Frame Wesley Double Action

 

There are many example Webleys on page 302 of Pulp HERO. If you don't have that resource, I'd go with a a 1 1/2 - 2d6-1 RKA built with all the "Weapon" Power Mods (Charges. Focus, Independent, Str Min (8-10), Real Weapon, etc).

[Toadmaster]

Re: Gun write up: .442/450 Solid Frame Wesley Double Action

 

It would be roughly the same as a .45 Colt revolver or .45 Auto. As I recall there is no real difference in game terms between Single action and Double action (something I disagree with btw).

[Edsel]

Re: Gun write up: .442/450 Solid Frame Wesley Double Action

 

The muzzle energy is very similar to that of the 455 Webley, which is just slightly better than that of a 38 special. At only 715 feet per second muzzle velocity it will be even worse at penetrating things than a .45 ACP, but then in that era body armor really wasn't a concern. I'd be tempted to give it a -1 RMod since it is short barreled and low velocity I doubt it would have much accuracy at range.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Gun write up: .442/450 Solid Frame Wesley Double Action

 

The muzzle energy is very similar to that of the 455 Webley' date=' which is just slightly better than that of a 38 special. At only 715 feet per second muzzle velocity it will be even worse at penetrating things than a .45 ACP, but then in that era body armor really wasn't a concern. I'd be tempted to give it a -1 RMod since it is short barreled and low velocity I doubt it would have much accuracy at range.[/quote']

 

I would agree with you in general , but I'm just looking at the other guns in DC thats why I felt it was roughly equal to the .45, the new weapons stats don't seem to have much empirical method to them like the older Hero stuff did, the Webly has a big bullet and at the time was considered a pretty powerful gun.

 

For my own game I got much more detailed than DC and went back to stats closer to the earlier products. I divided damage into penetration (damage) and knockdown (stn). The .455 webley is slower than the .45 but it is a fair bit heavier, which is the problem with going by energy alone (unlike some I feel energy is important I just don't think it tells the whole story).

As an example for the rounds mentioned I have the following stats.

 

.38 Spl 1d6+1 +0 stn

.38/200 (heavy bullet.38 used by the British to replace the .455) 1d6 +1 stn

.45 ACP 1d6+1 +1 stn

.45 Colt 1d6+1 +2 stn

.455 Webley 1d6 +2 stn

 

As you can see I pretty much agree with your statement.

 

Under the new rules where the .45 ACP does more damage than a .41 mag (a much more powerful weapon in reality) I don't see any reason the Webley wouldn't be pretty close.

 

Sorry for the dissertation.

[Edsel]

Re: Gun write up: .442/450 Solid Frame Wesley Double Action

 

I think its damage should be about eqaul to the .45 as well. I am of the school that a bigger diameter round makes a bigger hole and therefore more damage.

 

I am curious about what data you have found for the 44 Webley/442 RIC. It is hard to find much data for that round. The sources I located listed it as having a 200 grain bullet at 715 fps or 220 grain bullet at 700 fps, whereas various loads of the .45 ACP vary from 185 up to 230 grains, with velocities ranging from 800 fps to 1140 fps.

 

I found the 45 Colt Government (the round fired by the famous Peacemaker) to be very effective for its era. 255 grain bullet at 800 fps.

 

All data taken from: Cartridges of the World, 10th Edition, published by Krause

 

EDIT: Made the correction in bold type, I had reversed two numbers.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Gun write up: .442/450 Solid Frame Wesley Double Action

 

Actually was going off the Webley .455, most of the .44/.45s of the early smokeless period were fairly simple, so for the slightly off the wall ones I just consider them about the same as the .455 Webley or .45 S&W, these were kind of middle performers representitive of the caliber. THe .45 Colt was actually quite a bit more powerful than the others initially but it was customarily loaded to a lower level about equal with the .45 ACP, prior to the .44 Magnum there were peole loading the .45 Colt pretty hot, it had performance similar to moderate .44 Magnum loads, using modern guns and ammunition the .45 Colt can perform right alongside the .44 Magnum.

While the modern .45 ACP is a bit more powerful than the Webley .455 if you look at the older loadings of the .45 they are much closer, the .45 has more energy but the Webley has a heavier bullet, I'd give the edge to the .45 but wouldn't put the .455 to far behind, it had a very good reputation with British officers, much like the .45 has in the US.

 

My main source is the one you list, although I have several editions and the data does vary a bit from edition to edition. I have a data base I have put together with a typical load for hundreds of rounds from many sources (where ever I can get data, if it seems reliable it goes in there).

 

For the ones that would apply here I have

 

.44 Webley 220 gr bullet, 700 fps, 239 ft/lbs

.455 Webley 265 gr bullet, 600 fps, 220 ft/lbs

.45 ACP (early) 230 gr bullet, 805 fps, 331 ft/lbs

.45 ACP +P (current) 200 gr bullet, 1050 fps, 490 ft/lbs

.45 Colt (reduced load) 255 gr bullet, 855 fps, 405 ft/lbs

 

.41 Magnum (moderate load) 210 gr bullet, 1300 fps, 790 fps

.44 Magnum 240 gr bullet, 1500 fps, 1200 fps

 

It looks to me as though I don't actually have the .442 listed, I need to look into that, I know I have stats for it in at least COW if not another.

 

If you look at the above stats you can see mild .41 Magnum is far more powerful than even a hot +P .45 ACP, yet does less damage in HERO, the .44 Magnum is 2 1/2x more powerful than the .45 ACP but does the same damage. IMO somebody had a little too much cult of the .45 influencing them when writing up 5th ed and DC stats. Because of this I have a real hard time trying to recommend stats to fit with the new official HERO stats, perhaps I was a bit to hasty but -1DC behind the .45 ACP or equal with is about the same to me. As in my earlier post, the stats I use, I actually have them (.45, .455) different but roughly equal. Your suggestion to have a -1 Rmod makes sense too, I do this for mine, if the bullet has a velocity less than 250 m/s it is -1, as they go faster they get a + to Rmod (this allows rifles to get better rmod than pistols based on more than just barrel length).

 

I also am of the big bullet is better club, but I do realize that velocity must count for something because most people agree rifles are far superiior to pistols but rifles use small light (relative to pistols) bullets at high velocity.

 

Anyway I hope we haven't completely confused the original poster, particularly since I think we pretty much (in a long winded round about way) agreed with the nice simple first reply. I do tend to ramble on when I get into this topic.

[MosheZadka]

Re: Gun write up: .442/450 Solid Frame Wesley Double Action

 

The original poster is both happy for the simple original reply and the extensive discussion, and is not at all confused.

[gewing]

Re: Gun write up: .442/450 Solid Frame Wesley Double Action

 

Actually was going off the Webley .455, most of the .44/.45s of the early smokeless period were fairly simple, so for the slightly off the wall ones I just consider them about the same as the .455 Webley or .45 S&W, these were kind of middle performers representitive of the caliber. THe .45 Colt was actually quite a bit more powerful than the others initially but it was customarily loaded to a lower level about equal with the .45 ACP, prior to the .44 Magnum there were peole loading the .45 Colt pretty hot, it had performance similar to moderate .44 Magnum loads, using modern guns and ammunition the .45 Colt can perform right alongside the .44 Magnum.

While the modern .45 ACP is a bit more powerful than the Webley .455 if you look at the older loadings of the .45 they are much closer, the .45 has more energy but the Webley has a heavier bullet, I'd give the edge to the .45 but wouldn't put the .455 to far behind, it had a very good reputation with British officers, much like the .45 has in the US.

 

My main source is the one you list, although I have several editions and the data does vary a bit from edition to edition. I have a data base I have put together with a typical load for hundreds of rounds from many sources (where ever I can get data, if it seems reliable it goes in there).

 

For the ones that would apply here I have

 

.44 Webley 220 gr bullet, 700 fps, 239 ft/lbs

.455 Webley 265 gr bullet, 600 fps, 220 ft/lbs

.45 ACP (early) 230 gr bullet, 805 fps, 331 ft/lbs

.45 ACP +P (current) 200 gr bullet, 1050 fps, 490 ft/lbs

.45 Colt (reduced load) 255 gr bullet, 855 fps, 405 ft/lbs

 

.41 Magnum (moderate load) 210 gr bullet, 1300 fps, 790 fps

.44 Magnum 240 gr bullet, 1500 fps, 1200 fps

 

It looks to me as though I don't actually have the .442 listed, I need to look into that, I know I have stats for it in at least COW if not another.

 

If you look at the above stats you can see mild .41 Magnum is far more powerful than even a hot +P .45 ACP, yet does less damage in HERO, the .44 Magnum is 2 1/2x more powerful than the .45 ACP but does the same damage. IMO somebody had a little too much cult of the .45 influencing them when writing up 5th ed and DC stats. Because of this I have a real hard time trying to recommend stats to fit with the new official HERO stats, perhaps I was a bit to hasty but -1DC behind the .45 ACP or equal with is about the same to me. As in my earlier post, the stats I use, I actually have them (.45, .455) different but roughly equal. Your suggestion to have a -1 Rmod makes sense too, I do this for mine, if the bullet has a velocity less than 250 m/s it is -1, as they go faster they get a + to Rmod (this allows rifles to get better rmod than pistols based on more than just barrel length).

 

I also am of the big bullet is better club, but I do realize that velocity must count for something because most people agree rifles are far superiior to pistols but rifles use small light (relative to pistols) bullets at high velocity.

 

Anyway I hope we haven't completely confused the original poster, particularly since I think we pretty much (in a long winded round about way) agreed with the nice simple first reply. I do tend to ramble on when I get into this topic.

 

 

My house rule? 1d6+1, +1 stun for .45 ACP.

10mm 1.5 d6

.45 Super 1.5 d6, +1 stun probably. hasn't actually come up

.41 magnum 2d6-1 or 1.5d6 +1 stun depending on how I finally rule on .45 super

 

.45 Rowland matches .44 magnum.