Question for the gun-bunnies

[Susano]

I'm developing firearms for my Kazei 5 setting, and want to use the Mateba Model 6 Unica since it was featured (IIRC) in Ghost in the Shell. My question is -- what would it's HERO stats be? Any special OCV or Rmod bonuses?

 

Here's the gun:

 

 

And here's an article on it:

 

http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Revolvers/Mateba_Model_6.htm

[Edsel]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

It should do standard .357 calibur damage. Other than the unique operation of the gun its is basically just a .357 calibur revolver. In my games a 6" barrel would just barely qualify it for a +1 RMod (the 8" model certainly would). The double action first shot is a kinda interesting situation. I generally give single-action firearms a +1 OCV, especially revolvers, since the light trigger pull means that there is less chance of pulling the gun off target when applying pressure to pull the trigger. Since the first shot is double-action I wouldn't give it that bonus on the first shot, but I would for following shots. Of course if you cocked the hammer for the first shot it is in essence firing that shot in single-action mode as well.

 

The recoil of the upper assembly should cut back on the recoil a bit so you might go with a lower than normal STR for the standard .357 revolver. I'd go with an 8 STR Minimum.

 

Hero System default would call it a 1 1/2d6 RKA, +1 OCV, +1 RMod. My home system would call it 2d6+1 with a +1 STUN Mod (we use pretty lethal house rules).

 

Weak .38 Special loads are not going to generate enough force to work the action properly (normally .38 Special can be used in a .357 revolver). I bet you could use hotter than normal .357 loads If the gun is tough enough to take the pressure the recoil will be nullified somewhat as I stated earlier.

 

As with any uncommon and unconventional gun there are a lot of people who like it and a lot who don't. It is hard to find enough data on this gun to make a really good call on it accuracy and quality. I have read some reports of the gun doubling (accidentally firing two shots for a single pull of the trigger), but like I say the data is pretty sketchy. I would worry about how rugged the design is in adverse conditions. Of course Togusa used a later fictious model of the gun so I am sure that they had worked out any problems by then.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

Interesting but in game terms its just another .357 Magnum.

 

The similar Webley-Fosbery mentioned in the article was developed in the early 20th century, it also was a self-cocking revolver, nothing to make it stand out except it was the gun used to murder Marlowe's partner in The Maltese Falcon. As it used the same round as the Webley .455 used by the British it was allowed to officers who bought their own weapon, during WW1 it was found to be more vulnerable to the mud and filth of the trenches than more traditional revolvers.

 

I don't think I would really do anything different with this gun than any other revolver, although it can not use the range of rounds that a .357 normally can (.38 Special, .38 S&W, mid range .357 rounds), although it should still be able to fire these as a single shot that must be manually cycled between shots (not a great idea but if all you have is a box of .38's at least you can still shoot back), I would also probably give it a better chance to misfire using ammo other than standard types (hollowpoints, AP and ball should be fine but plastic bullets, shot rounds etc probably won't cycle it I would guess). If you want to make it stand out in someway I could go along with Edsel's suggestions.

 

Interesting idea in a techno-geek way, and I'm sure there are many who buy it for the unique factor, but really it takes a very solid and basic design (revolver) and alters it to add more things to go wrong. The practical side of me says its a bad idea, but I still think it is kind of a neat gun, I've always liked the Webley-Fosbery, now there is a new version.

[Susano]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

Thanks. Edsel's stats do look good to me.

[Blue]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

I think there has to be a STR Minimum on a weapon that big

[gewing]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

If you stick to the .357, I would probably leave damage as is.

 

I MIGHT give it something like a +1 or +2 ocv only for follow up shots because of the low mounted barrel and the recoiling operation. That SHOULD make it quicker back on target, though I don't know if it really would.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

hmm....

 

Interesting pistol, but honestly it seems like you would just get the worst of both worlds -- the slow reload of a revolver, and the barrel slide / moving parts of an automatic.

[Susano]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

hmm....

 

Interesting pistol, but honestly it seems like you would just get the worst of both worlds -- the slow reload of a revolver, and the barrel slide / moving parts of an automatic.

 

I am under the impression the pistol's accuracy helps counter this.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

I am under the impression the pistol's accuracy helps counter this.

Even so +1 + -1 = 0.

[Susano]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

Even so +1 + -1 = 0.

 

True, which means it goes from "oh, heck no!" to "will this work for me?"

 

Of course, in K5, the real question is "Will I look cool using it?"

[gewing]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

True, which means it goes from "oh, heck no!" to "will this work for me?"

 

Of course, in K5, the real question is "Will I look cool using it?"

 

 

Yeah, it would look cool, but a RUger in .500 Linebaugh would be pretty good too.

 

If you want to REALLY create an imposing looking "pistol" though it would be single shot...

 

http://www.sskindustries.com/encore.htm

 

 

He is a NUT, imo, but has done some GREAT cartridge designs.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

Yeah, baby. Nothing says cool like a retro cannon styled single shot big bore pistol. Gives new meaning to the term "HAND CANNON".

 

Sweet gewing! Thanks for the link.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

True, which means it goes from "oh, heck no!" to "will this work for me?"

 

Of course, in K5, the real question is "Will I look cool using it?"

What Im saying is that I dont think it needs any mechanical treatment; seems like its pros would cancel its cons and you end up with a middle point 357 revolver with a gimmick.

 

I mean, if that sort of design were particularly advantageous, there would be more than one of them on the market. Afficianados would favor the design and other gun makers would perforce produce equivalent versions. Since that isnt the case, Im forced to the conclusion that its just a curiosity, notable only for its unusualness.

 

It does look cool though. If you want to reflect its "cool factor", just give it +5 PRE, Offensive Only (-1), or more obliquely +1 to Intimidation.

 

Personally, I would just consider it as a "Display of Power" using the normal PRE Attack rules. Vs knowledgeable folks its worth the same +1d6 as any other gun since they realize that its no more dangerous than any other less fancy pistol, but vs less knowledgable people it might be worth +2d6 since it looks so heavy and frightening.

 

Another advantage to doing it this way is that like all things PRE Attackish it loses its punch with repeat exposure, which is probably more appropriate than a flat bonus that always applies. It is also generic and the method is applicable to any unusual / bad *** looking weapon.

[gewing]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

Given the huge number of top-break revolvers in anime, I wonder if it would be possible to make a top break design that would have really serious strength, enough for the super magnum cartridges like the Linebaughs, the new S&W run, etc...

[Toadmaster]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

Well I was leaving this alone since I sort of figured you were going for a cinematic thing anyway so a little fudging to give an auto revolver its gimmick seemed appropriate.

 

As this has become more of a discussion of the real world application, I would have to agree the gun is kind of silly, I mean considering that the first auto revolver was introduced prior to WW1, it wasn't a great success and there have been no others for 60+ years (according to the link to the gun), there is probably a reason for that, its cool but not a really great idea. It has one advantage over a double action auto, if the round doesn't fire pull the trigger again, a new round will be brought in line as the cylinder is turned (bad idea if the round was a hang fire), the DA auto you would have to chamber a new round. It also has one advantage over a DA revolver that I can see, you don't get that double action trigger pull, I'm not one that feeles this is really an issue but some do. However it also defeats one of the safety issues that make revolvers a popular choice for newbies, the heavier double action trigger pull, on this gun you would have to decock it if you are done shooting and still have live rounds in the gun. I wonder if it has a safety? the Webley-Fosbery did.

 

Gewing, I would think the design of a top break revolver would pretty much prevent it from being used for really powerful ammo, as I understand it the Portcyl on most single actions is stronger than a Swcyl and both are stronger than a top break. I'm not familiar with any top break revolvers more powerful than the old .45 S&W, the only current top breaks I can think of are the H&R revolvers, mostly .22 LR or Magnum and some in .32, they did make one in .32 Magnum but I don't recall if that ws a top break or not. (all these years and I still use Aftermath's abreviations for magazines )

 

Still like the auto-revolver they do look cool, and something large bore like say .45 Colt would make a handy monster hunters gun since it would be fairly easy to load special rounds in as needed (silver bullets, garlic shot, saboted mini-stakes etc)

[gewing]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

It MIGHT be possible to design a really strong top break, but I imagine it would be quite bulky to get the strength.

 

 

They do look cool, I always think of the 3 shot iirc one that Leon uses on the firing range in Bubblegum Crisis. It looked like about 70 caliber...

[Edsel]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

Of course the gun used by Togusa in Ghost in the Shell is refered to as a M2008 Mateba, a fictious future model of the gun. I am not certain that his is a .357 Magnum. I guess that the gun is one that won't be produced until at least 2008 and his could be a later version of that as well. By then perhaps he has a carbon nano-tube frame with a catch that allows a top-breaking gun to handle something like .475 Linebaugh, or something even more powerful.

[Susano]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

Given the huge number of top-break revolvers in anime' date=' I wonder if it would be possible to make a top break design that would have really serious strength, enough for the super magnum cartridges like the Linebaughs, the new S&W run, etc...[/quote']

 

Actually, what some people liked was how the barrel is in-line with the bottom cartridge, which is how Vash's gun is set up in Trigun.

 

And for the record, +1 OCV, +1 RMod is better than most Dark Champions revolvers, which sets it a part nicely.

[Susano]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

It MIGHT be possible to design a really strong top break, but I imagine it would be quite bulky to get the strength.

 

 

They do look cool, I always think of the 3 shot iirc one that Leon uses on the firing range in Bubblegum Crisis. It looked like about 70 caliber...

 

15mm Earthshaker. If you have the K5 PDF, look for something called Stormbreaker.

 

Ah... here it is:

 

19 Remington Stormbreaker: RKA 3d6+1, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4); Beam (-1/4), 4 clips of 3 Charges each (-3/4), OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), STR Minimum (-1/4) plus +1 RMod; OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) [3]

 

(This version is for one a character uses in the game, hence the 4 "clips.")

[gewing]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

15mm Earthshaker. If you have the K5 PDF, look for something called Stormbreaker.

 

Ah... here it is:

 

19 Remington Stormbreaker: RKA 3d6+1, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4); Beam (-1/4), 4 clips of 3 Charges each (-3/4), OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), STR Minimum (-1/4) plus +1 RMod; OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) [3]

 

(This version is for one a character uses in the game, hence the 4 "clips.")

 

 

Yeah, that was Shoko's main weapon wasn't it? when she had any ammo, that is.

 

That reminds me to post a question to the mailing list. What have been the Advances in tech in the last 5 years? Are laser weapons more common?

 

Are combat cyberdroids even more scary?

 

Oh well, I'll try to remember to copy this to an e-mail and send it out...

[Susano]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

Yeah, that was Shoko's main weapon wasn't it? when she had any ammo, that is.

 

That reminds me to post a question to the mailing list. What have been the Advances in tech in the last 5 years? Are laser weapons more common?

 

Are combat cyberdroids even more scary?

 

Oh well, I'll try to remember to copy this to an e-mail and send it out...

 

Yup. But the write-up is from Kitten's character sheet. Being a 43 STR cyborg means she can handle it just fine.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

Point in fact, this is a semi-auto revolver, so if I were to make any suggestion (and I may be missing something here, happens) it would be to reflect someone could pull off rapid fire/chamber emptying manuevers with it. If you're reflecting an anime style, then this is amazing similar to Vash's pistols, which are the world's fastest firing revolvers.

 

Autofire, Blazing away, etc., would all be viable here. Give it a +1 OCV for accuracy when not using special manuevers. And then, I may be barking up the wrong tree entirely. Wolves are sometimes dumb like that.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

Revolvers cycle much faster than semi-autos, so a semi-auto revolver would actually have a slower potential maximum rate of fire not faster. The idea that revolvers have a slower rate of fire is something that game designers seem to have come up with and it has travelled from system to system.

 

As this kind of statement generally results in someone claiming revolvers are slower look to the autocannon, the fastest firing cannons are the multi-barrel gatling style cannons and the single barrel revolving chamber style cannons.

 

If you are suggesting that the revolver be set up as a true auto weapon that would be possible I suppose but the mass of the cylinder, barrel etc would upset the point of aim far worse than your standard full auto pistol like a Mauser M712 or Glock 18, and that is before you consider using a powerful cartridge like the .357 magnum. Full auto pistols using much less powerful cartridges have rarely been a success. Of course it is anime so physics may not apply

[Edsel]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

For an example of just how fast you can fire a revolver visit this site and watch the video. I have seen a better copy of this video before but I can't seem to find a better link right now.

 

It'll take a few seconds to load after it gives you a false error about no longer having the film.

 

I have been studying the mateba and see that it comes in either .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum. I have also read that a .454 Casull version is available but I can't confirm that. I have found several accounts of people who have fired the mateba and all claim that the recoil is very light.

[gewing]

Re: Question for the gun-bunnies

 

Revolvers cycle much faster than semi-autos, so a semi-auto revolver would actually have a slower potential maximum rate of fire not faster. The idea that revolvers have a slower rate of fire is something that game designers seem to have come up with and it has travelled from system to system.

 

As this kind of statement generally results in someone claiming revolvers are slower look to the autocannon, the fastest firing cannons are the multi-barrel gatling style cannons and the single barrel revolving chamber style cannons.

 

If you are suggesting that the revolver be set up as a true auto weapon that would be possible I suppose but the mass of the cylinder, barrel etc would upset the point of aim far worse than your standard full auto pistol like a Mauser M712 or Glock 18, and that is before you consider using a powerful cartridge like the .357 magnum. Full auto pistols using much less powerful cartridges have rarely been a success. Of course it is anime so physics may not apply

 

 

Look up what Thel Reed and such can do with a revolver. He is actually SLOWER with a semi-auto, because he has to wait for it to cycle!