Jump to content

Religion Hero??


Kehrer

Recommended Posts

Re: Religion Hero??

 

or perhaps a campaign book designed for a particular system....., or is that what you mean..

 

 

I still think that religion is more likely to succeed as an individual campaign or scenario design theme rather than a complete game or sub genre. Religion could reasonably be the center focus of Champions' date=' Dark Champions, fantasy Hero, Pulp Hero or Star hero with equal appropriateness. The GM design determines all.[/quote']
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 61
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Re: Religion Hero??

 

I'm inclined to agree that religion hero is really a sub-genre (or meta-genre really), as you can implement it in any other genre.

 

But that's not to say that you can't write a book on it. I think it'd also be fun, as well as educational, to write about a plethora of religions, philosophies and mythic archetypes. A book that discusses how religion affects social spheres as well as personal ones could be used as game ideas in a campaign. Having a guide, essentally a comparative religion section, could help the GM figure out if and what types of conflicts could occur between followers of various religious sects. For example, Buddhists get along with basically everyone...from shamans to monotheists to polytheists to atheists.

 

I think religion is a sorely neglected topic in games. The TV show Battlestar Galactica put an interesting spin on religion for example. Even in fictitious settings, one rarely thinks about how followers of various religions will react to one another. Look at today's problems with fundamentalism and how it shapes world events.

 

I think if it's done right, Religion Hero would be non-offensive....at least if you have a semi-open mind. A good place to get ideas for yourself until such a book comes out is http://www.religioustolerance.org. Lots of comparative articles and discussions of doctrine amongst various religions. Also covers obscure religions, like Jainism, Sikhism, Shintoism, Manicheasts, Bahai'ists and others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest daeudi_454

Re: Religion Hero??

 

The problem is that most "devout" practitioners of most religions- well... aren't tolerant. Anyone else is wrong at best, evil people to be killed at worst.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Religion Hero??

 

There are so many resources for Angels & Demons in RPGs what exactly did you have in mind.

 

Fantasy Hero by Hero Games - Divine and Diabolical Racial Package Deals

http://www.herogames.com/Products/FH.htm

 

Vibora Bay by Hero Games - Fallen Angel/Demon

http://www.herogames.com/Products/VB.htm

 

Bestiary by Hero Games - Demons & Avatars

http://www.herogames.com/Products/Bestiary.htm

 

GURPS In Nomine by Steve Jackson Games

http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/

 

Demon: The Fallen by White Wolf

http://www.white-wolf.com/demon/

 

Fireborn by Fantasy Flight Games

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/fireborn.html

 

Angel RPG by Eden Studios

http://www.angelrpg.com/main.htm

 

Primal Order by Wizards of the Coast

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=330

 

Rapture: The Second Coming by Holistic Design

http://www.holistic-design.com/introRapture.htm

 

The Seventh Seal by Creative Illusions - War between Heaven and Hell on Earth.

http://www.morriganrpg.com/gm-SevSeal.html

 

Celestius Ex, 2nd Ed A Christian Roleplaying Game by Crown of Thorns Studio

http://www.celestius-ex.com/

 

Glorantha by Chaosium - Ascension and Classes of Gods

http://www.glorantha.com/new/index.html

 

Brave New World by Pinnacle Games & Alderac Entertainment Group - The Covenant

http://www.forbeck.com/?cat=11

 

Godsend Agenda D6 by Khepera Publishing - Alien Angels & Demons

http://www.godsendagenda.com/

 

Deities & Demi Gods by Wizards of the Coast - The Classics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deities_&_Demigods

 

Armeggeddon: The End Times by Eden Studios - Dark Urban Fantasy with a twist.

http://www.edenstudios.net/armageddon/news.html

 

Nobilis RPG Game of Greater Powers by Hogshead Publishing/Guardians of Order - Beautiful Book

http://www.guardiansorder.com/games/nobilis/products.html

 

Testament: Roleplaying in the Biblical Era by Green Ronin Publishing - By our own Scott Bennie

http://www.greenronin.com/catalog/grr1019

 

GURPS Religion by Steve Jackson Games - The best Sourcebook for Religion RPGing out there... So far

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Religion/

 

Shadowrun: Magic in the Shadows by Fantasy Productions - Deals with Religion and Angels and Demons as Spirits.

http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/fanpro/intro_mits.shtml

 

Champions of Vancouver - Gabriel, Archangel of Communications. An Avatar rather than a true Archangel.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32740

 

 

Good Luck

 

QM

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Religion Hero??

 

The problem is that most "devout" practitioners of most religions- well... aren't tolerant. Anyone else is wrong at best' date=' evil people to be killed at worst.[/quote']

 

While I'll give you a qualified yes on your comment about devout practitioners, the fact is that in the existing market for RPG books, those people are rare. It's not so much that you're wrong as that your point doesn't matter.

 

That said I am not neccessarily advocating a Religion HERO book as I don't advocate books I won't buy, and right now I woldn't buy a book on religious themes in gaming unless I saw something with a novel approach as I already have several books which deal religous themes in gaming generally or specifically.

 

Also covers obscure religions' date=' like Jainism, Sikhism, Shintoism, Manicheasts, Bahai'ists and others.[/quote']

As a technical note Shintoism isn't so much obscure as regional

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Religion Hero??

 

Well, I'd say Jains and Sikhs are relatively obscure outside their native countries. Granted even shintoists outside Japan are usually Japanese, but they still are around. For example take a gander here: http://www.tsubakishrine.com/test/home.asp

 

I think it's good to know at least the basics of even obscure religions/philosophies. There's an old asian saying that says, "He who knows only one religion knows none". I really think having a comparative religious study would be a great boon to gamers. Religion is at the heart of many great game ideas. Religion provides conflict and mystery, two of the central ingredients in any story. Understanding the commonality and differences of religions can help provide building blocks for a campaign. It'd also be a good way to create your own religion for a fantasy or sci-fi game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Religion Hero??

 

There's approximately 4 million Jains, and 20 million Sikh's in the world. Perhaps small in comparison to the world's population, but that actually puts both religions in the top 15. In England, Sikhs are the 4th largest religious group (not counting non-religous or atheists) behind Christians, Muslims, and Hindus and comprise about 336,000 members.

 

Go to any large city in the free world (5 million+ cities), and I'm sure you'll find at least a few score followers of virtually every religion in the world. One of the few cool things about monster cities in my opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 7 months later...

Re: Religion Hero??

 

It depends on what you mean, too, by a "religious game." A game about a religion? A game about believing in a faith? A game about beliefs themselves?

 

If you want the focus around a corrupt, unfaithful/irreligious town, even if you don't use the system and use HERO, Dogs in the Vineyard's town-generation chapter is quite useful. If you want the focus around PC moral choices, DitV will at least give good ideas in general if not be a system better suited to that than most (I think the latter, but given the purpose here is "Religion HERO" I'll assume we want a HERO end result as a given).

 

Regarding beliefs and centering roleplaying choices around those, I've heard a lot of people praise Burning Wheel, I have still not gotten around to reading it. So that might be good "study material."

 

Random thoughts -

 

I think an interesting thing to deal with is the hubris that develops around most player/PC relationships.

 

Most games, including HERO, reward PCs (and therefore players) for winning conflicts. You'd probably want to shape your XP around saving souls and such, if the game is about being of a certain religion. In fact, you might even not reward defeating evil, or reward it less than promoting good. This will help downplay always resorting to the terrible swift sword (again, depending on the type of campaign you want).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Religion Hero??

 

The problem is that most "devout" practitioners of most religions- well... aren't tolerant. Anyone else is wrong at best' date=' evil people to be killed at worst.[/quote']

 

And some devout practitioners aren't really interested in dealing with their game-master's external religious-cultural perspective of their faith; or with gaming materials that are well researched and respectful, but still completely off-base from the perspective of the religion in question, because the author isn't a practitioner, and could not research actual source texts and cultural realities. I am certain Testament is excellent from a gaming perspective, but I'm also certain it would look radically different if written by an educated Jew. I'm of the opinion that, excepting a truly exceptional game-master with truly exceptional players, a game that uses real world religions as its impetus can only work with a religiously homogeneous roleplaying group made up of actual practitioners of the faith in question, or a heterogeneous group where none of them are practitioners.

 

Can you imagine if a Christian GM tried to run a Jewish themed game set in ancient Israel, or Roman Judea, for me? Or tried to run a scenario for a really hard-core orthodox Jewish character run by a hard-core orthodox player - even where religion is really just a tertiary issue? In my experience it doesn't work. There are radically divergent ethical and theological assumptions that come into play that inevitably create friction if real world religion becomes an issue in the game. Why would a religious Jewish player (as an example) want to deal with religion in a game that had implicity christian assumptions - or visa versa?

 

I have a player who ran occassionally to give me a break who decided to break my general rule, which was to avoid religion as a theme in heterogeneous religious groups. He did this because he wanted a religious story-line for my character, who was religious, though in a very subdued way in the game. He comes from very fundy christian roots, and even though he is agnostic and very open minded, a lot of those assumptions shone through. He was being as respectful and meant well - and I did not get upset with him at all - but I was also uncomfortable with some of his (unintentionally and extremely) ignorant assumptions about what the character would do, and how the character would react. And personally, as a Jew, the storyline just didn't work in terms of roleplaying a Jewish character dealing with Jewish religious themes. It fell flat - flat like a cardboard cutout blown onto its face by a strong wind. Smack-flat.

 

This isn't to say that religion cannot be used to great affect in a game, but with real world religions I think, unless your group is essentially homogeneous in religious terms, that its best to tread very lightly, and to have it be part of the ambiance rather than the plot. The experience is likely to reveal more about the prejudices of the players and GM towards the religion in question, than illuminate the religion the story is revolving around - and that can be a very uncomfortable experience if one of the people at the table is an actual practitioner.

 

On the other hand, I have run a game where an amalgam monist religion/philosophy was a driving force in the game, and where heresy, prophecy, sectarian conflict, and the nature of the divine were significant themes. I think it worked - and produced some very profound sessions we are both very proud of - because 1) it was a solo game, 2) I (the Jew) and my player (the Christian) were very careful to ensure the theme and thrust were universal, 3) this player and I are very close and know eachother very well, and 4) it was similiar to real world monotheism without actually being real world monotheism.

 

I have other players I wouldn't have run that game for, even if I were offered a million dollars.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Religion Hero??

 

Actually, I think a historic based religious based RPG would be a cool idea. Problem is, no one would want to play it. It will incense or at least alienate many Christians because it would make them question many theological issues they take for granted.

 

Imagine this for a roleplaying exercise. God, commands your forces (the Israelites) to massacre all the Sihonites. Every last man, woman, child, old man and oxen. Why? Because Yahweh told you to do it. Would you be able to do it (and yes, this isn't just a modern day way of thinking....conscience has been with man since the dawn of our consciousness). And yes, Yahweh did order on several occasions the massacre of several peoples (look at Numbers or Samuel).

 

Roleplaying exercise #2. The year is 325AD and the Synod at Nicea has convened, declaring Arianism, or the belief that Jesus is not of the same divine nature as God as heretical. You are ordered to sniff out any Arians and force them to denounce their belief...or to perish.

 

Roleplaying exercise #3. You meet a man who rescues you from certain death. While tending to your wounds, you notice in his belongings the scripture, The Gospel of Thomas...a known Gnostic teaching declared heretical. The man saved your life...what do you do?

 

Roleplaying exercise #4. Your king orders you and your men to attack his enemy in another province and to kill all of them, including the priest who has been agitating the other lord to move against your own lord. Where does your allegiance lie...to your lord and liege, or to your faith?

 

And these are but a few of the hundreds of scenarios I could think of. I didn't even touch anything about the Crusades or the Reformation which is ripe for ideas. How about any of the wars fought during this time period, like the English Civil War?

 

But it will not only make irate those who will not appreciate putting Christianity under a new light, it will also fail to attract those who aren't biased towards religion one way or the other. Most people are very wary of anything smelling of religion, because they are afraid of the hard sell.

 

I personally would like to see not just Christian themes covered, but anything with a religious overtone ala Battlestar Galactica. Religion is a very sticky topic though right now and there's definitely a Cold War being waged in this country over religious themes. So a game about religious themes and history could either be really hot, or it could blow up. I personally feel that we need to expose people to many religious themes so that they are exposed to more than just one dogmatic viewpoint (or none at all) precisely because of this Cold War that's going on. But like I said, it's a super-sensitive issue right now...so either way, you'd have to be careful

 

What I find interesting about this post is that it doesn't take into account the very real likelyhood that a religious person would find using God as a deus ex machina to advance the plot, and both God and the Prophets as non-player characters, inherently offensive and disrespectful in of itself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Religion Hero??

 

I have used religious themes in a lot of games, but usually in a SF/Fantasy setting and not using real world religions. I don't think a game based on religion would work and one based on RL religions would be too likely to cause offense. Of course it also depends on your players. I could see some players I know enjoying a game based on the manga/anime series Angel Sanctuary (where the background is a war between angels) and others I know would be offended.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Re: Religion Hero??

 

The first issue of Targum, Highmoon's PDF magazine support for Testament,

The first issue includes:It's for d20, but fans of the setting should find enough cool bits to justify a purchase. Yeah, I am a contributor, so please note my bias. :-)

 

Ostraca: Lost Books by Spike Y Jones - Use lost books of the Bible as inspiration for your games.

The Caravan at Kuntillet'Ajrud by Christopher Heard - A look at the inns of the ancient Middle East.

The Hekau-Adept by Scott Bennie - The Egyptian master sorcerer, complete with a new spellcasting system.

The Twelve Tribes of Israel: Part 1 by Daniel M. Perez - Bring the heritage of the twelve tribes into your game.

Free Paper Minis from Arion Games.

 

It is available at http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=7727&src=EnWorld At $6.95 for 35 pages, some might cosider it pricey, but the subject's fairly esoteric by gamer standards (Some of the rabbinical legends on the sons of Jacob are good enough to justify it, in my eyes).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Religion Hero??

 

Well there are three ways to look at it:

 

Religeon as theme: This is probably the #1 you see religeon in RPGs. Somebody takes a classical religeous lesson or story and models a role-playing stuation out of it. Someone might use the game to impart a moral lesson, sometimes appreciated, sometimes not. Or there may be a statement about religeon or faith through a PC or NPC. The power of faith may overscome some great evil, even if it's just faith in a god that doesn't exist outside the game world.

 

Religeon as Mythos: Also common. Many games feature angels, gods, demons, priests, etcetera. Here the main matter is just deciding on stats and powers, as well as degree of influence on play.

 

Religeon as Meta-Genre: Probably the rarest of the three, religeon as a Meta-Genre would imply using Hero to try to bring about religeous experience or a feeling of proximity to the divine. RPGs could theoretically be very effective for this, and for some people it works quite well. Just as often though, these are the same people who believe spells are real and they are really possessed by demons. All in all it works out best for the hobby if this sort of thing is only done on an extremely limited basis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Religion Hero??

 

Well, depending on what religion you practice, having "God" or a prophet played as an NPC would definitely be sacreligious. Islam comes readily to mind. Allah is not an anthropomorphic being (unlike how he is often portrayed in Christianity), and neither Allah nor Muhammed should be iconified or depicted in any way (for that matter, neither is the 12th "Hidden" Imam for the Shiia). Allah is not seen as manifesting his presence in the physical world to make things happen...that is the job of human beings. Humans are just trying to fulfill Allah's covenant, which is why Muslims call Jews and Christians "people of the book", and in ancient times, accorded far more tolerance and protection than Christians afforded Jews or Muslims. Rather Allah is a presence within (even Muhammed never "saw" Allah, he only received the "recitations"...which btw is what Koran means).

 

But to a Jewish or Christian player, I don't foresee this as a problem. Afterall, the New and Old Testament (Torah) are rife of examples of God (El, Yahweh, Jehovah, Shaddai, etc) directly intervening and being in the presence of humans. And since my examples were particularly in regards to Christianity, I don't think they'd find it so odd or irregular. While it's true that God usually works by proxy (Moses, Jesus or various angels....or even disembodied presences like the burning bush...or in Nicene terms, through the Holy Ghost), there are enough examples in the Bible to not find it too odd that God would directly intervene in some manifestation.

 

But in some ways, it's this revelation that the GM should think about such issues is why I think a Religion-based game would be interesting. I have studied many religions as a hobby and have discovered many interesting things which they have in common and in which they are different. Being aware of these commonalities and differences is what is not only fascinating, but important even in today's ever more polar society.

 

For example, Christianity (Protestants and Catholics mostly, lesser to a degree the Eastern Orthodoxy) is very concerned about orthodoxy...or "straight thought". They want to make sure everyone has the same core beliefs (heretic btw in Greek meant "free thinker" or "one who goes his own way", thus a heretic was someone who was not an orthodox thinker). Islam and Judaism on the other hand are more concerned with orthopraxy....the correct mode of practice and worship. What you think and believe about Yahweh or Allah is not as important as the rituals and worship of Him. This is why the mystic branches of Judaism and Islam survived and even flourished (Kabbalah and Sufism respectively) while in Christianity it did not (for example the Gnostics).

 

And then of course there's the non monotheistic religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and various shamanistic/animistic or ancestor worship religions. These in turn have their own idea of what is divine, spiritual or worldly, profane, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Religion Hero??

 

 

But to a Jewish...

 

As a religious Jew and a long-term gamer I do foresee a very big problem. I think you're assuming a "Chistian" take on Judaism that doesn't exist. In a lot of areas Judaism is more similiar to Islam than Christianity. This is one of them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Religion Hero??

 

The fundamental problem I see with Religious hero is that you really have to have an indepth knowledge of, at the very least, one religion to run. If your players don't have that level of depth or some sort of bias view on religion, it could cause the game to fizzle out quickly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Religion Hero??

 

Speaking as what probably counts as a "devout" believer - and, if I may say so, a "devout" gamer! - I think the idea of making an RPG based around religion, or even a sourcebook about religions in general, is at best a quixotic ideal and at worst an invitation to a hatchet job. The problem is that everyone thinks they have the best perspective on the universe: Christians (in full disclosure, that includes me) think there is only one God, and by and large, the ideas and guidelines (or even outright commandments) in the Old and New Testaments are valid, allowing for varities of interpretation thereof. Jews reject the New Testament, holding to what they see as the only real divine scriptures, the Law and the Prophets (what Christians call the Old Testament). And so on with any religion you pick. And some modernist person who doesn't believe in any religion will treat them all as, at best, amusing morality tales for the unenlightened, and, at worst, purely fictional or even delusional methods for covering up mental illnesses and manipulating the masses. So really, nobody is qualified to make an objective, fair description of the various religions, and, even if there was someone, there certainly wouldn't be enough like her/him/it to provide a decent market for the book!

 

That said, my take on religion is RPGs is that I use it as a tool, much like I use psychology or sociology or history or physics, and so forth: it is a tool which I as GM and player can use to enhance the game. I'm not going to make my games or characters depend upon knowledge or application of any particular religion, any more than I am going to have characters or games which have as their primary focus accurate and detailed knowledge of psychology (in which I have a BA, for all that's worth) or physics (in which my brother is a college professor). I'm trying to make interesting stories, not treatises or lessons. (BTW, DragonRaid isn't so much an RPG as it is a Scripture-teaching tool; when I finally had a chance to look through it, it's clear - and explicit - about its purpose, and for that purpose I suppose it woould work well. I know it would not work well for me both for gamer reasons and believer reasons.) When I do use religion explicitly in games, it's always as a storytelling aid (and while I admit to sometimes using a bit of "morality tale" in a few games, it's always on the level of "good is better than evil," no more specific than something you might find on the Hallmark Channel).

 

I think it might - might - be possible to do a sourcebook on religions, sort of in the GURPS sourcebook mode (haven't they done one already?). But that's a very different thing than designing a religion RPG. A religion RPG would almost have to be built specificially within one religious perspective, with treatments of other beliefs derived from within the primary. And for that very reason, its sales market would be A) gamers who happen to follow that religion; and B) gamers who are open-minded and/or curious enough to pay money to read things that they know are likely to oppose their world view.

 

Again, as believer in a particular religion, I feel that my beliefs are challenged and even derided enough in daily life - including, I must say, by people within my chosen hobby - that I feel no need to seek out marginal opportunities to buy stuff that will chap my hide even if it's quality material. When I want that kind of challenge, I'll go for the real thing, not a watered-down game book. (Just so you don't think I'm just an intolerant witch-burning ignoramus, let me add here that, while I haven't had a chance to play them, I find both In Nomine and White Wolf's Hunter fascinating reading.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Religion Hero??

 

Well, it's always dangerous to try to pidgeonhole a religion as having a certain "standardized" set of beliefs or practices, and I admit I'm guilty of doing that too. Look at the differences between Protestants, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodoxy, or Sufism, Wahhabism, and Shia "Twelvers", or between say Lurianic Kabbalah, and Marrano (a somewhat derogatory term historically speaking...it means "pig"...so forgive me) Jews. All religions are like this. Even in Buddhism you've got branches that believe in divine intervention (Pure Land), and those that don't even really pay attention to reincarnation (Chan and Zen). So it's very possible for many Jews (and even some Christians) to take offense at a God who directly intervenes in worldy affairs. Afterall, it was a mortal offense to even utter Jehovah once upon a time. But then again, that was in the days before Rabbinic Judaism had taken hold (which really happened after the two incredibly destructive Jewish-Roman wars of 68AD and 132AD...if I remember the dates correctly. Look up Bar-Kohkba revolt).

 

But I think it's precisely knowing all these differences that is interesting from a gaming perspective, and educational from a real world one.

 

It's also interesting that Jewish culture was the first in Europe to embrace secularism and even an early form of Atheism/Agnosticism. Because of the Sephardic exodus of Jews from Spain at the end of the 1400's (btw, Sephardic comes from Sefarad....or Spain...it does not mean only Semitic Jews) and some Jews rather faking getting converted than leave, these Marrano Jews lost some of the true meaning of Judaism. When some of these Jews had to leave and then experienced "real" Judaism in other areas, many could not understand or accept it. Benedict (Baruch) Spinoza was an example of this.

 

Now, with all this said and done, I do think that gaming or even writing a Religion Hero book is fraught with many pitfalls, and these should be examined carefully. First and foremost is understanding your audience. If the book was written too scholarly, it might seem boring, though it might have an edge in seeming unbiased. Another problem is that some religious gamers might take offense at information about various religions and their practices, history or beliefs....even if said information is factually correct. For example, I have incensed many Christians who could not believe that A) God would order a people to commit genocide (read Numbers or Deuteronomy for some examples) or B) That Jesus not once spoke out against slavery, and that in fact, some writings in the New Testament actually talk about proper rules and punishments for slaves.

 

The trouble is when we try to examine these religions and their teachings, practices and beliefs from our modern day standpoint. We have to look at things in context from an ancient people's point of view. In fact, a Religion Hero book which failed to take into account history, and how religious teachings have evolved would be a disservice. The plain fact of the matter is that religions do evolve...even fundamentalist groups.

 

So yes, Religion Hero would be very difficult to pull off. And doing it wrong could alienate customers from Hero Games, not to mention cause rifts between the playing group. But if the cost of failure is that high, I think the rewards are equally high. It would I think deepen faiths of some players by giving them a better understanding of their religion, it may enlighten those players who are irreligious to better understand what religion offers, and for all involved, it could lead to better tolerance and acceptance of other religions. But I could definitely understand why Hero Games would not want to take the risk of publishing such a book. But I think a homegrown resource would be a good idea...and in fact, I'd be more than happy to help build one if enough folks are interested.

 

And just for the record, I was baptized Catholic. But two grandfathers were Catholic, one grandmother Protestant (Lutheran) and one grandmother Muslim (Sufi). But I consider myself mostly Buddhist, with a dash of Taoism and esoteric Sufism thrown in for good measure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...