Worst comic book superfight ever

[Marketeer]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I'm going to echo the "Wonder Woman got robbed in the fight with Storm" bit; the whole fight jumped the shark when WW had a hold of Storm's leg... and didn't win right there.

 

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Storm getting kicked in the head by Diana should have had only two outcomes:

 

a) Diana pulls her blow. Ororo is /merely/ KTFO'ed.

 

Diana doesn't pull her blow. The pulpy mass that used to be Ororo's head is last spotted travelling in the general direction of the horizon at several times the speed of sound. Her torso, however, is not accompanying it.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The whole Magneto fight at the end of the Xorn story arc blew chunks.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Xorn? Watch this Flash animation. It explains all.

 

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/218160

[Whitewings]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Xorn? Watch this Flash animation. It explains all.

 

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/218160

Ridiculously convoluted and explains nothing. Very appropriate.

[mirage]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Not being a big Marvel fan let so me get this straight:

 

Spiderman can beat Firelord.

In addition Spiderman can't stop the Punisher.

 

With continunities like this its no wonder I'm not going to become one anytime soon.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Not being a big Marvel fan let so me get this straight:

 

Spiderman can beat Firelord.

In addition Spiderman can't stop the Punisher.

 

With continunities like this its no wonder I'm not going to become one anytime soon.

 

The continuity spread's worse than that, if you count the Enforcers or the Jackal or the Vulture on the low end of Spidey villains who've given him problems (though they later retconned semi-reasonable explanations for the latter two).

 

It's not that Spidey *can't* take a high-end foe convincingly: the Spidey/Juggernaut battle around ASM 228-230 was a prime example of doing this right; but he shouldn't be winning a slugfest with a Herald of Galactus without a pretty convincing edge.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The continuity spread's worse than that, if you count the Enforcers or the Jackal or the Vulture on the low end of Spidey villains who've given him problems (though they later retconned semi-reasonable explanations for the latter two).

 

It's not that Spidey *can't* take a high-end foe convincingly: the Spidey/Juggernaut battle around ASM 228-230 was a prime example of doing this right; but he shouldn't be winning a slugfest with a Herald of Galactus without a pretty convincing edge.

Heralds of Galactus are over-rated. They aren't anywhere near as consistently invulnerable in the comic books as some of the comments on these boards would suggest.

[Prometheus]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Me too. And Spidey can beat Firelord' date=' temporarily, if he pulls out all the stops. So I've got no problem with it.[/quote']

 

 

Superfights have always been a means to an end, and if you can sell it to me, I won't bat an eyelid. This is Mythic Stuff after all, or at least to me it is.

 

Like the Batman vs Guy Gardner fight- there was only one way that goes in a straight fight, but the writers knew that and "sold" their version pretty well. It's still one of the funniest, most satisfying, and... shortest fights ever.

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

well, it is a comic book. Consistency isn't a strong suit of the medium. If it works for the story for Spidey to show how much of a bad@$$ he is by going all out and beating up Firelord, then that's how the story will get written.

I also remember the Spidey of that era putting a pretty solid hit(well, kick) on the Gray Hulk, and it look like the Hulk felt it. So, if he can hit the Hulk(even the slightly less tough Gray version) hard enough for him to feel it, it's not too much of a stretch to say he can hurt Firelord if he punches him all out a couple hundred times in a short period of time.

Ah, the Gray Hulk was MUCH weaker than the Green Hulk... even when he got angry, he didn't get close to a calm Green. All the old Hulk foes, such as the Absorbing Man, or Thing (who was powered-up at the time, admittedly), were seriously out-classing him in his grey form. He beat them by out-smarting them, or not at all.

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

one of the worst fights I ever saw was the Hulk v Thing 90's style. It took two comics and in the FF comic the once again mutated thing (spikey and stronger than evar!) and the recently depowered Gray Hulk (Mr. Fixit). In the FF story the thing basically beats the crap out of him thinking he's a Hulk Wannabe. (Fixit keeps his mouth shut so that he doesn't give away his identity) Then in the Hulk' date=' Mr. Fixit out thinks the Thing, and ends the fight by basically drowning him and then reveals his identity. It was...unfulfilling. The Thing should have had at least one clean win.[/quote']

And here's the fight I was talking about! Cool.

 

Personally, I loved the rematch... of course, the rematch is the only one I read. I felt the Thing did have a 'clean win', all things considered, since he absolutely beat Hulk - Doom had to pull his fat out of the fire, and THEN, Thing went on to beat up a Hulkbot. The issue left no uncertainty that Hulk was utterly outclassed by Thing.

[Starlord]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yeah--almost seems like that could be it's own crossover book.

 

On top of that Supes then says something like, 'That was my toughest fight ever'...yet in NO WAY can you be given that impression by what was shown. Additionally, we now supposedly have Superman's greatest fight ever taking place offscreen.

 

As to who should have won...well I'm a Thor fan more than a Superman fan so I'm biased...but it seems to me that someone needs to officially decide just how vulnerable Supes is to magic weapons...that would throw it clearly in Thor's favor...otherwise I suppose that Supes would win. Still, we were jipped on the fight.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Heralds of Galactus are over-rated. They aren't anywhere near as consistently invulnerable in the comic books as some of the comments on these boards would suggest.

 

Looking for consistency in comics is a mug's game.

 

However, going beyond an analysis of their powers (Spidey's incredibly fast, the Heralds' Power Cosmic allows them to manipulate almost anything at will, including the ability to hit things that are incredibly fast, like spaceships travelling at FTL), the writers who best understand and utilize the Heralds best (ie. Kirby) have them do so at a mythic level at which Spider-Man at his best doesn't touch; Spidey's thematic strength is that he's grounded in his human foibles and fights on a more human level than Marvel's heavyhitters

 

The Heralds are essentially the archangels of Kirby's Galactus God-myth (with the Surfer taking on Christ overtones as well). How much more obvious does the analogy need to be than Gabriel? Having Firelord serve as a "jobber" (to put it in rasslin' terms) essentially makes Spider-Man Marvel's equivalent of Batgod, with obnoxiously unquenchable pluck substutiting for obnoxiously frightening competence. If Spider-Man were to be beat a Herald, he should do so not because the angels are wimps, but because humanity is clever and/or demonstrably worthy of the angels' respect.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Actually, a 'BatGod' analogy for taking down a Herald would be what Doom has done to the Silver Surfer -- via sheer obnoxious intellect, prep time, custom-tailored gizmos, and mercilessly taking the guy from his blind side, the Herald of Galactus drops and away Doom gallivants with all his stolen power.

 

Of course, the difference is, it's believable for Doom to screw with cosmic powers by sheer force of genius, as he's Victor von freakin' Doom, the only man who was a mental peer to Reed "Galactus calls me for help with his science homework" Richards.

 

What Spider-Man did to Firelord isn't at all like what Grant Morrison did with 'BatGod', but more like, oh, what Don King did with boxing.

[Starlord]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Looking for consistency in comics is a mug's game.

 

However, going beyond an analysis of their powers (Spidey's incredibly fast, the Heralds' Power Cosmic allows them to manipulate almost anything at will, including the ability to hit things that are incredibly fast, like spaceships travelling at FTL), the writers who best understand and utilize the Heralds best (ie. Kirby) have them do so at a mythic level at which Spider-Man at his best doesn't touch; Spidey's thematic strength is that he's grounded in his human foibles and fights on a more human level than Marvel's heavyhitters

 

The Heralds are essentially the archangels of Kirby's Galactus God-myth (with the Surfer taking on Christ overtones as well). How much more obvious does the analogy need to be than Gabriel? Having Firelord serve as a "jobber" (to put it in rasslin' terms) essentially makes Spider-Man Marvel's equivalent of Batgod, with obnoxiously unquenchable pluck substutiting for obnoxiously frightening competence. If Spider-Man were to be beat a Herald, he should do so not because the angels are wimps, but because humanity is clever and/or demonstrably worthy of the angels' respect.

 

The question is "Can Spidey hurt Firelord?". If he can hurt him he can win, right? Let's remember that Firelord wasn't thinking rationally during the fight, he was very frustrated and annoyed. Also, it IS in-character for Spidey's power level to increase a great deal when he becomes truly enraged. Anybody who has read a couple hundred Spidey comics should know this.

 

I would only agree with the Batgod analogy if Spidey did this on a regular basis, which he doesn't.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

There is no evidence to suggest that Firelord's durability goes *down* when he's angry, and given that he's taken hits from Thor and the original Phoenix and stayed fighting-fresh... Spidey may stop holding back some when he gets mad, but he ain't no Savage Hulk. He doesn't boost *THAT* high when he's angry.

 

(add -- not to mention that like any Herald of Galactus, Firelord is capable of getting into fights with space warships on even or superior terms. Terrax used to pick fights with Skrull *battlecruiser squadrons*.)

 

BTW, as a high-end benchmark of Herald durability, I note that the full force of the Mindless Hulk, /after/ having worked himself up into a towering rage, has proven entirely unable to make the Silver Surfer even blink. We are talking 'Norrin is just quietly sitting there and waiting for the big green idiot to get bored and stop punching him.'

 

Firelord, of course, is less powerful than the Surfer, but this gives us a high end of his possible range. (add -- or the possible range of any other Herald of Galactus, as the Surfer is the unquestioned top of the Herald rankings.) The aforementioned Air-Walker incident gives us a lower bound for his possible durability range (as that was the weakest Herald ever).

 

While the range between these two points (lower bound and upper bound) encompasses a wide area of uncertainty, note that *anywhere* in this range is still way above what even a bloodlusted Spider-Man could be reasonably expected to dent.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Actually, a 'BatGod' analogy for taking down a Herald would be what Doom has done to the Silver Surfer -- via sheer obnoxious intellect, prep time, custom-tailored gizmos, and mercilessly taking the guy from his blind side, the Herald of Galactus drops and away Doom gallivants with all his stolen power.

 

Of course, the difference is, it's believable for Doom to screw with cosmic powers by sheer force of genius, as he's Victor von freakin' Doom, the only man who was a mental peer to Reed "Galactus calls me for help with his science homework" Richards.

 

What Spider-Man did to Firelord isn't at all like what Grant Morrison did with 'BatGod', but more like, oh, what Don King did with boxing.

 

Doom going after the Surfer's powers the way he did works pretty well on a thematic level; Doom is a Romantic anti-hero who *would* covet the power of God (which is essentially what the power cosmic is in the Kirby myth), and would play the Romantic era Experience vs. Innocence card on the Surfer to trick him into giving the powers away.

[proditor]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

As to who should have won...well I'm a Thor fan more than a Superman fan so I'm biased...but it seems to me that someone needs to officially decide just how vulnerable Supes is to magic weapons...that would throw it clearly in Thor's favor...otherwise I suppose that Supes would win. Still' date=' we were jipped on the fight. [/quote']

I agree completely. The consistency of Superman's magic vulnerability is *at best* sketchy as all heck. I've always liked the version where he is no more resistant to the effects of magic than a normal human (Which is, I believe, the way it was supposed to go). So, Wonder woman's sword has an enchantment to cut things? Goes right through his invulnerable hide since that is the purpose of the magic. But Mjolnir? No specific "Bashy" enchantment, after all, you have frikken Thor winging the thing around, why would you even need it?!? So, he'd have his full invulnerability as he's "just" resisting a bash attack.

 

This made the most internal sense to me, but as we all know, the second you need to overcome Supes, all you need is a very hazy understanding of his powers, the writing skills of a 6th grader on ritalin, and the word "Magic".

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The question is "Can Spidey hurt Firelord?". If he can hurt him he can win' date=' right? Let's remember that Firelord wasn't thinking rationally during the fight, he was very frustrated and annoyed. Also, it IS in-character for Spidey's power level to increase a great deal when he becomes truly enraged. Anybody who has read a couple hundred Spidey comics should know this.[/quote']

 

I see we won't be avoiding a rehash of the prior thread. To add a few more comments that came from there:

 

- Does it seem to anyone else that the longer a Herald of Galactus remains planetside, the less powerful they become? Perhaps their power is set to drop off when they shirk their "find Galactus' next meal" duties.

 

- Please don't tell us how tough Air-Walker, Terrax and the Silver Surfer are [EDIT: Or Nova]. Spidey didn't beat them. He didn't even come close when he appeared in the Silver Surfer's own book (first series). He beat FIRELORD. Has Firelord ever actually won a fight against anyone? He's blown up some spaceships, and that power level would undoubtedly have creamed Spidey, but Firelord was refraining from use of his area effect attacks because he didn't want to harm civilians. In other words, he voluntarily refrained from using the attacks that would easily have won the fight because he role played his disadvantages, to put it in gamer parlance.

 

- Jeff T hits the nail on the head above. If Spidey can hurt Firelord, and can avoid being hurt back, he can eventually win.

 

- My read of the books isn't "Spidey beat Firelord. It is "Spidey, exerting supreme effort and exhausting himself in the process, managed to knock Firelord down for a moment." That took everything he had. He'd be SpiderCinders if the Avengers had not shown up at that moment.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Another Herald feat I just remembered...

 

Nova, whom Galactus gave the same flame-based Herald powers as Firelord (sans funky fighting staff), went through the entirety of the spaceborne defenses around the Skrull Imperial Throneworld.

 

In her first act after becoming a Herald.

 

For the purpose of leading Galactus to the Skrull Throneworld so he could eat it.

 

Friends, when the complete "home guard" fleet and fixed defenses of the capital world of one of the Marvel Universe's three greatest intergalactic empires is incapable of even slowing you down(*), you damn sure ain't getting punched by Spider-Man.

 

And here's the punchline. Nova is less powerful and experienced than Firelord.

 

 

 

(*) Heck, I'm unclear on whether they even /tried/ to slow her down, or if they simply took one look and went 'Oh, great, it's a Herald of Galactus. We're screwed. Abort to Plan Run The Hell Away!' Not that would make much of a difference re: the point I'm trying to make here.

[Starlord]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

There is no evidence to suggest that Firelord's durability goes *down* when he's angry' date=' and given that he's taken hits from Thor and the original Phoenix and stayed fighting-fresh... Spidey may stop holding back some when he gets mad, but he ain't no Savage Hulk. He doesn't boost *THAT* high when he's angry.[/quote']

 

I was saying that he'd possibly lost his tactical thinking abilities...honestly if he really couldn't hit Spidey he should've just gone 'small-nuke' on him and taken out the whole city block. Also, he didn't have the wherewithal to cosmically boost his defenses up to invulnerability level. After that, there really isn't something hard and fast out there IMO that says an enraged Spidey can't at least sting Firelord. So it seems possible, however improbable, that scores of stings could take Firelord down. I just don't think it is the impossibility that some people think it is.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I believe in his wiki article, it's stated that magical effects which replicate real world phenomena have no greater effect on Supes(i.e., his invulnerability works against mystic hammers and lightning). But purely mystical attacks bypass that invulnerability.

So, if Thor actually gets around to directly blasting supes with "god energy"(or whatever they're calling it nowadays) from the hammer, kal-el's toast.

I should also point out that the plausibility of Thor getting fragged by heat vision while he's holding his hammer is near-zero. He'd use Mjolnir to absorb and reflect the heat vision back at Supes, like he's done to Gladiator and Hyperion, and about 500 other instances besides that.

[OddHat]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Doom going after the Surfer's powers the way he did works pretty well on a thematic level; Doom is a Romantic anti-hero who *would* covet the power of God (which is essentially what the power cosmic is in the Kirby myth)' date=' and would play the Romantic era Experience vs. Innocence card on the Surfer to trick him into giving the powers away.[/quote']

 

Which also nicely points out that who should win in Comic Book fights, who we as readers can accept winning, has more to do with the power of the story and skill of the story teller than the "objective" raw abilities of the characters.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> Does it seem to anyone else that the longer a Herald of Galactus remains

> planetside, the less powerful they become?

 

No, it doesn't, because such has never been shown in the series. The one possible exception is the Surfer's first sojourn on Earth -- but note that unlike all other Heralds, he had been specifically exiled here by Galactus, and cut off from the stars.

 

I might also note that at the time Spider-Man fought Firelord, Firelord had been on Earth for a grand total of fifteen minutes.

 

> Please don't tell us how tough Air-Walker, Terrax and the Silver SUrfer are.

> Spidey didn't beat them.

 

So, I'm not allowed to use other Heralds of Galactus for aid in computing the minimum and maximum possible durability ranges for Heralds? I must restrain myself solely to using the reasoning you want, from the allowable evidence that you have dictated? Sorry, but I don't recall giving you veto power over what arguments I choose to make.

 

Refute me if you can, but what you're doing here isn't 'refuting' so much as it is 'godmoding an argument'.

 

[snip]

> He's blown up some spaceships,

 

And more importantly, he easily withstands attacks /from/ spaceships. A man whom galactic-tech capital ship artillery is not budging is not being credibly hurt by Spider-Man.

 

> and that power level would undoubtedly have creamed Spidey, but Firelord

> was refraining from use of his area effect attacks because he didn't want to

> harm civilians. In other words, he voluntarily refrained from using the

> attacks that would easily have won the fight because he role played his

> disadvantages, to put it in gamer parlance.

 

Say what?

 

Firelord doesn't *HAVE* Psych Lims against harming civilians. Please note that his day job was leading Galactus to planets for the purpose of genociding them -- and unlike the Surfer, Galactus didn't have to mind control him into forgetting his ethical code in order to make him accept the sordid aspects of the work. (correction -- Gabriel Lan was the original Air-Walker) Pyreus "Firelord" Kril accepted the duty *willingly*. He weren't no psycho like Terrax, no, but he was pretty durn indifferent to the fate of sentient beings that weren't his own species. (For that matter, so was Frankie "Nova" Raye, only her 'own species' was humanity.)

 

The only reason Firelord didn't area-nuke the entire battlefield is because the writer made him job. Seeing as how, with a single thought, he could have filled the entire block he was standing on with 200-million-degree nuclear plasma.

 

[snip]

> My read of the books isn't "Spidey beat Firelord. It is "Spidey, exerting

> supreme effort and exhausting himself in the process, managed to knock

> Firelord down for a moment." That took everything he had. He'd be

> SpiderCinders if the Avengers had not shown up at that moment.

 

Then one of us is misremembering greatly, as I recall Firelord already being unconscious by the time the Avengers arrived. Their sole role in the book was to act as Spider-Man's cheering section, and gape in awe at his magnificent victory.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

In her first act after becoming a Herald.

And here's the punchline. Nova is less powerful and experienced than Firelord.

 

How experienced was Firelord? How compressed is Marvel time? Depending on which version one reads, Surfer was a herald for years or centuries. After that, Galactus had Air-Walker, and then Firelord. How long had Firelord realistically been a Herald when he first showed up in Thor? How long has he been a Herald in Marvel-Time today? The Spidey story was in the mid-1980's, IIRC, about 20 years before present-day and 10 years after his first appearance. How much Marvel time passed between 1975 and 1985 real time?

 

And whoever said Nova was less powerful than Firelord? She had powers of her own before Galactus augmented her, unlike the other Heralds (pre-Morg, anyway).

 

(*) Heck' date=' I'm unclear on whether they even /tried/ to slow her down, or if they simply took one look and went 'Oh, great, it's a Herald of Galactus. We're screwed. Abort to Plan Run The Hell Away!' Not that would make much of a difference re: the point I'm trying to make here. [/quote']

 

If Nova "won" soley because the Navy ran away without engaging she realy didn't need any power to win, did she? SpiderMan would also defeat the Skrull Navy if they went "Heavens forfend - it's an Earthling! They always defeat us - FLEE FLEE FLEE"

 

In any case, taking out the Skrull Navy would likely involve those high powered AoE attacks that Firelord's honor demanded he refrain from when fighting Spidey. Firelord's refusal to fight like a wargamer cost him the battle.