Req: Civil War Firearms stats

[LordGhee]

Re: Req: Civil War Firearms stats

 

Just remember Black that the Highland charge was broken at Culloden Moor.

The Duke of Cumberland Train his men to use thier bayonets. In this battle the redcoats met the charge and out "fenced" the Highlanders. it was his reform of the army that lead to the victory.

 

outsider use of fast draw is good as skilled troop could devlier a round in twenty secounds.

 

humm highlander vs redcoat.

 

assumtions

 

Musket range 180 meters leveled. 400 max

 

so 200"

 

warriors all speed three.

all have same ocv/dcv

 

redcoats stand ready.

 

higlanders get to 200" -11 [rang mod 128-256] (if fire then prob only 3 rolled -so one hit out of 216 )

now I would not fire.

the highlanders could move, move at non cbt or half move and doge.

so start the engadement at 128" fire

-10 + 3 brace and set and so 3 or 4 hist and that is 4 hits.

216 - 4 is 212 highlanders left.

best move normal with push 10' so 90" in reload time so range is 38" inchs

 

the highlanders must decide to take this fire or fire thier own muskets

must use max muskets would fire at 31"

first fire - 6 ramge mod so that is 3,4,5, hits for 10 hits if they set that is up to a 6 hits for 22 hits

readcoats are not set or braced.

redcoats at 194 wait until 11" at -4 so with a barce and set at a now charging dodging higlander so a 7 hits for around 40 hits.

162 highlander vs 194 reds the highlanders if wait to fire to long will be with in charge range of the redcoats so they are on the down side.

 

Musing at late night

[Outsider]

Re: Req: Civil War Firearms stats

 

But how many scotsmen fit in a hex? If they are in a tight formation that allows them to mass their musket fire, then I'd say 2 per hex side to side, and 2 per hex front to back, for a total of 4 per hex.

 

That means that a batallion of 216 scotsmen forms a 54 hex area target (36 hexes wide, 1.5 hexes deep), which is much easier to hit at range than an individual man. Have each man target the center of the formation, then, even if he misses, his shot may drift onto a hex occupied by the formation anyway. Miss by 1, drift by 1 hex. So, if a soldier misses by 1, 2 times in 6 his shot will drift into a hex occupied by 4 scotsmen anyway, and 2 times in 6 it will drift into one of the half occupied 3rd rank hexes, for a total of 3/6 chance of hitting anyway. As the drift distance increases, the odds of drifing into an occupied hex decreases, but still remains. The chances of drifting onto another part of the line are 3/(Drift Distance*6).

 

So, at 200" (11- base to hit, then -12 due to range and +3 Set/Brace = 2- to hit total)

 

Dr : Drift distance

Hx : Number of hexes that could be hit with that drift

No : Number of men out of 216 getting this result

Odds : Odds of hitting an occupied hex with that drift

Hits : Odds*No

 

Dr : Hx : No : Odds : Hits

_1 : _6 : _1 : 1 in _2 : 0.50

_2 : 12 : _3 : 1 in _4 : 0.75

_3 : 18 : _6 : 1 in _6 : 1.00

_4 : 24 : 10 : 1 in _8 : 1.25

_5 : 30 : 15 : 1 in 10 : 1.50

_6 : 36 : 21 : 1 in 12 : 1.75

_7 : 42 : 25 : 1 in 14 : 1.79

_8 : 48 : 27 : 1 in 16 : 1.69

_9 : 54 : 27 : 1 in 18 : 1.50

10 : 60 : 25 : 1 in 20 : 1.25

11 : 66 : 21 : 1 in 22 : 0.95

12 : 72 : 15 : 1 in 24 : 0.62

13 : 78 : 10 : 1 in 26 : 0.38

14 : 84 : _6 : 1 in 28 : 0.21

15 : 90 : _3 : 1 in 30 : 0.10

16 : 96 : _1 : 1 in 32 : 0.03

 

So the total number of shots landing in occupied hexes at range 200 would be 15.27, despite the fact that the 'to hit' number of the individual firing troops is only a 2-, making it theoretically impossible for them to actually hit the man/hex they are aiming for.

 

 

Not that this is necessarily worth anything, but as long as we're crunching numbers

[Old Man]

Re: Req: Civil War Firearms stats

 

And what if the highlanders are carrying cast iron targes for defense?

[Susano]

Re: Req: Civil War Firearms stats

 

What about pointed sticks?

[Outsider]

Re: Req: Civil War Firearms stats

 

And what if the highlanders are carrying cast iron targes for defense?

 

Then they gain 1 DCV, and the average drift increases by 1.

 

_2 : _12 : _1 : 1 in _4 : 0.25

_3 : _18 : _3 : 1 in _6 : 0.50

_4 : _24 : _6 : 1 in _8 : 0.75

_5 : _30 : 10 : 1 in 10 : 1.00

_6 : _36 : 15 : 1 in 12 : 1.25

_7 : _42 : 21 : 1 in 14 : 1.50

_8 : _48 : 25 : 1 in 16 : 1.56

_9 : _54 : 27 : 1 in 18 : 1.50

10 : _60 : 27 : 1 in 20 : 1.35

11 : _66 : 25 : 1 in 22 : 1.14

12 : _72 : 21 : 1 in 24 : 0.87

13 : _78 : 15 : 1 in 26 : 0.58

14 : _84 : 10 : 1 in 28 : 0.36

15 : _90 : _6 : 1 in 30 : 0.20

16 : _96 : _3 : 1 in 32 : 0.09

17 : 102 : _1 : 1 in 34 : 0.03

 

Total 'hits' = 12.93

 

 

This, of course, assumes that the 'hits' noted are actually hits on the scotsmen. Since we're dealing with 4 men to a hex (tight combat formation) this isnt an unreasonable shortcut.

 

Another way to figure it is to have the English actually aim for the hexes the scotsmen are occupying, rather than the scotsmen themselves, in a variant on suppression fire. Then the scotsmen's shields dont matter on the initial attack roll (which is against a DCV 3 hex), but do come into play on the subsequent 'target enters a suppressed hex' to hit roll.

 

Normal suppression fire is at -2 OCV to hit its target hex and to hit a target that is in/enters the suppressed hex. This would mean that the scotsmen's shields dont matter in the initial 'suppression hex targetting' calculation, but do in the 'hitting a target in a suppressed hex' one. The numbers calculated in the earlier post assume a direct targetting of soctsmen with the same DCV as the English OCV. To use the same numbers, we'd have to have Englishmen with a 5 OCV, which isnt unreasonable. Anyway, once we determine the number of 'hex hits' then we need to perform the second calculation to determine the number of 'target hits'. In this case, each scotsman in an affected hex has an 11+(English OCV-2)-(Scottish DCV+1(for the targe)) chance of being hit, which (if English OCV and Scottish DCV are the same) means an 8-, or a 56/216 chance of hitting each man in the hex. This means a 160/216 chance of missing each man in the hex, or a 30.1% chance of missing all four of them. So multiply the number of 'hex hits' by 0.699 to get the number of 'target hits'. It comes out to (15.27*0.699) = ~10.67, round it to 11, if the base English OCV (and scottish DCV) is 5.

 

If the Base English OCV and Scottish DCV is higher, than there will be more scotsmen hit, as there will be more english bullets making hex hits, which are only DCV 3, while the target hit calculation remains unchanged (modified scots DCV is still 3 up on modified English OCV).

 

 

 

As to OCV and DCV in regards to the 'target hit' roll :

 

Personally, I'm not real keen on the idea that someone's DEX makes a dime of difference for avoiding being hit by an attack that they cant even perceive (a speeding bullet) that is essentially unaimed anyway. I'd rate a man size target DCV 3 against such an attack, no matter what his DEX. Even Dodging wouldnt help, as he'd be as likely to dodge into the path of the unaimed bullet he cant see as to dodge out of it. The Targe would help, though, as it covers some of him. On the other hand, I would also say that the OCV of the firer of an essentially unaimed 'area attack' doesnt make a dime of difference either, other than to see if he hits the hex area at all in the first place, so I'd say any bullet successfully entering the hex will attack whats there with an OCV of 1 (3 minus the 2 for 'suppression fire') and nevermind the firer's OCV at that point. This would yield the same ~70% hit rate vs 'hit' rate as calculated above, and let us not have to worry about modifying the second calculation (the target hit one) in cases where opposing troop CVs are not equal.

 

This would then allow the formulation of a 'volley fire' table that gives a number of hits based on the firing troops OCV only, which could then be multiplied by a limited number of defensive conditions (ie has impenetrable +1 DCV shields) Rounded to the nearest whole number :

 

O = OCV of attacking troops

HH = Hex Hits

D0 = Actual hits on targets with no DCV modifiers

D1 = Actual hits on targets with a +1 DCV modifier

D2* = Actual hits on targets with a +2 DCV modifier

D3* = Actual hits on targets with a +3 DCV modifier

 

Range 129-256

O : HH : D0 : D1 : D2 : D3

0 : _8 : _7 : _6 : _4 : _3

1 : _9 : _8 : _6 : _5 : _3

2 : 10 : _9 : _7 : _5 : _3

3 : 11 : 10 : _8 : _6 : _4

4 : 13 : 11 : _9 : _7 : _4

5 : 15 : 13 : 11 : _8 : _5

6 : 19 : 16 : 13 : 10 : _6

7 : 26 : 22 : 18 : 13 : _8

8 : 35 : 30 : 25 : 18 : 11

9 : 49 : 41 : 34 : 25 : 16

 

If the firing troop is not Set, subtract 1 from its OCV.

If the firing troop is not Braced, subtract 2 from its OCV

If the firing troop is closer, add 2 to its OCV per range bracket it is closer.

If the firing troop is farther away, subtract 2 from its OCV per range bracket it is farther.

 

The chart may need to be extended to account for higher quality troops who are closer, or lower quality ones who are farther away and/or not set/braced.

 

 

*I can see a bulletproof targe (+1 DCV) but larger cast iron shields would be too heavy to manage, IMHO. The D2 and D3 categories would most likely only come into play if the defending troops were behind hard cover, like a sturdy fence, wall, or parapet.

[Spence]

Re: Req: Civil War Firearms stats

 

Just a couple of notes that may apply. I have been trying to work out a system for blackpowder weapons in hero for a while. Something that stays somewhat realistic without becoming un-fun

 

On reloading.

 

The majority of people go with: prime, pour powder, place round, ram and so on. There were a couple of other methods, since rate of fire out-weighed accuracy. Here are just a couple.

 

1) Generally the bullet (ball, round, what have you) was smaller than the rifle bore would normally call for. The Mid-18th Century British Brown Bess barrel No 11 Bore (0.76 caliber) was issued a No14 (0.71 caliber) bullet. Giving one-twentieth inch gap between bore and bullet. On loading the first couple (few) times it was possible for "well trained men" to pour the powder and simpley drop the bullet in and tap the musket butt on the ground to "seat" the bullet. This allowed one to entirely skip ramming. Of course you could only do this until the barrel was too fouled and you had to start ramming again.

 

2) Paper cartridges. A paper wrap/tube contains the powder with a ball on top. Method A) Bite paper, prime pan, shove entire cartridge powder end first into barrel, ram. Or method Shove entire cartridge powder end first into barrel, ram hard enough to force powder into touch hole. "A" would be preferred and while I have found several references to "B", I can find nothing on how well it actually worked.

 

On ranges and hit effectiveness.

 

There were mnay "studies" c1800. Here are the results I could find from 3. These same ones are repeated over and over in all of my references.

 

Picard.

Range - % shots hitting 1.75m x 3.00m target

75m(82y) - 60%

150m(164y) - 40%

225m(246y)- 25%

300m(328y) - 20%

 

Muller

Range - % of hits(Well trained men,Ordinary Soldiers)

100yards - 53%, 40%

200yards - 30%, 18%

300yards - 23%, 15%

 

Greener

Range - % shots hitting 6' by 20' target

100yards - 75%

260yards - 42%

300yards - 16%

400yards - 4-5%

 

Further research however points to these numbers being higher than normal, because while they were conducted "in battlefield" conditions. No one was shooting back. After reading a ton of contradictory information, I have to agree with Col Hanger, c1814.

 

"(Brown Bess)….will strike a figure of a man at 80 yards - it may even be at 100, but a soldier must be very unfortunate indeed who shall be wounded by a musket at 150 yards provided his antagonist aims at him: and as to firing at a man at 200 yards with a common musket you may as well fire at the moon and have the same hope of hitting your object. I do maintain and will prove that no man has ever been killed at 200 yards by a common musket by the person that aimed at him."

 

This reinforces the premise that accuracy was forfeited in favor of rate of fire.

 

On rate of fire.

 

One of the "standard" items in the books appears to be this. 500 trained men in ranks with a frontage of 150yards will deliver 6-10 shots per yard per minute.

 

For individuals you get a range of 1 shot per minute to the upper limit of 5 shots per minute by the "experienced" soldier.

 

Anyway, just some data to stir the pot…..

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Req: Civil War Firearms stats

 

Without going over all the charts and tables folk posted, just a couple of notes about the breakdowns of the highland charge, and related topics...

 

 

#1) The Highland charge at Culloden wasn't broken sheerly by British fire discipline (tho that DID make a big difference). Incompetence on the part of the Bonny Prince had a lot to do with it. One does not charge an emplaced high ground gunnery position across a wet moor with starving and demoralized troops unless one doesn't want to win. Figure that the Scots were at 1/2 move and DCV due to terrain mods, and at a substantial penalty to their morale rolls from conditions.

 

#2) Bulletproof Targes are pretty factual. I've built & tested one. It's all about the lamination. That and a layer of the heaviest bull rawhide you can get. By a similar note, proofed steel targets are workable. English-Scots border cavalry and German Schwartzritters both used them in the late 16th and early 17th century. My buddy had one made by a fairly well known california armorsmith that was around 8 pounds and still had the remains of the .70 cal musket ball lodged in it from it's proof test at 30 paces.

I'd be inclined to call them at least a +2 DCV, tho in a mass combat situation it'd probably be more realistic to consider them extra armor on an activation roll.

 

 

On the overall thread topic, something to ponder....

I've been trying to figure out how to seperate the powder from the ball in muzzleloader write ups.

I hear you now...

WHAT!!!!!! you say?

track this... The boostable charges rule is PERFECT for dealing with overcharging a gun, in all ways except that it expends extra charges which would usually be considered the bullets carried. If one were to write up a black power weapon with the Charges reflecting the amount of powder carried, then it works.

[st barbara]

Re: Req: Civil War Firearms stats

 

"Spence" Your figures look as if they were designed for a smoothbore musket. While I don't dispute their accuracy I have to ask, wouldn't a rifled musket be slower than that to load ? The bullet of a rifled musket has to fit the bore much more tightly (so as to engage the rifling). I remember reading that in the late 18th/early 19th century the bullets were encased in greased patches (which were often held in a "patch box" that was part of the butt of the rifle) but by the American Civil War the entire "round" (powder, bullet etc) was held in a paper cartridge. THe rifleman bit off the end of the cartridge with the powder and poured the powder into the barrel, then he rammed the rest of the paper cartridge (which provided wadding and bullet in one package) into the barrel of his rifle before half cocking the hammer and fitting a percussion cap to the nipple of his rifle, then full ****, aim and fire the piece.

[st barbara]

Re: Req: Civil War Firearms stats

 

The censorship on this site is hilarious ! Doesn't it take context into account ?

[Susano]

Re: Req: Civil War Firearms stats

 

The censorship on this site is hilarious ! Doesn't it take context into account ?

 

I don't think any such software is so sophisticated.

[Spence]

Re: Req: Civil War Firearms stats

 

"Spence" Your figures look as if they were designed for a smoothbore musket. .

 

Yes, you are correct. But since they were talking about Culloden, I jumped in on that bases. One of the reasons the ACW was so bloody with such high casualties was the use of tactics and ranges of engagement based on the use of muskets, being employed with rifles. I have a 50cal percussion rifle myself that I take out and shoot, and even a casual shooter like me hits a target most of the time even at range. Against a large mass……… Even with the reduced rate of fire, a bad shot can almost be guaranteed to hit something at 100 yards, especially since line infantry were not trained to hit a specific target but rather to pour as much fire into the enemy formation as possible. And many smaller actions were fought much closer than 100 yards.

 

Most of the "expert history buff's" I know tend to cite the big battles for ACW. The small (make that very small) amount of ACW research I have done tends toward minor skirmishes with very little detail. I guess growing up in the South I was burned out on the subject almost before I got started. Now I am suitably ignorant about the Napoleonic period and the British Colonial Era, which is why they fascinate me.

[Old Man]

Re: Req: Civil War Firearms stats

 

"Spence" Your figures look as if they were designed for a smoothbore musket. While I don't dispute their accuracy I have to ask' date=' wouldn't a rifled musket be slower than that to load ? The bullet of a rifled musket has to fit the bore much more tightly (so as to engage the rifling).[/quote']

 

The big difference with Civil War muskets was the invention of the poorly named minie ball round. This was not a ball, but a bullet-shaped... uh... bullet with a hollow back end. When fired, the back end would expand to take the rifling. This allowed the round to still have a smaller pre-fired diameter than the inside of the barrel; otherwise ramming a round down a rifled barrel was the kind of thing you didn't want to have to do under fire.

 

Note that I am horrified to hear of people firing any black powder weapon without ramming. Loosely packed powder can detonate in highly undesirable ways.

[Old Man]

Re: Req: Civil War Firearms stats

 

#1) The Highland charge at Culloden wasn't broken sheerly by British fire discipline (tho that DID make a big difference). Incompetence on the part of the Bonny Prince had a lot to do with it. One does not charge an emplaced high ground gunnery position across a wet moor with starving and demoralized troops unless one doesn't want to win. Figure that the Scots were at 1/2 move and DCV due to terrain mods' date=' and at a substantial penalty to their morale rolls from conditions.[/quote']

 

What amazes me about that particular battle is how long the Jacobite troops put up with it. Bonny Prince Charlie let his half-starved, exhausted men endure over thirty minutes of British artillery in line, then ordered them to attack the British (who outnumbered them two to one) across said bog, with freezing rain in their faces. They suffered horrific casualties--around twenty to one, IIRC--yet not only did they not break, they pressed on and actually broke through the British line at one point.

[Spence]

Re: Req: Civil War Firearms stats

 

The big difference with Civil War muskets was the invention of the poorly named minie ball round. This was not a ball, but a bullet-shaped... uh... bullet with a hollow back end. When fired, the back end would expand to take the rifling. This allowed the round to still have a smaller pre-fired diameter than the inside of the barrel; otherwise ramming a round down a rifled barrel was the kind of thing you didn't want to have to do under fire.

 

Note that I am horrified to hear of people firing any black powder weapon without ramming. Loosely packed powder can detonate in highly undesirable ways.

 

Yep, and I am still waiting for someone ELSE to let me know how a test of tap loading worked out..

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Req: Civil War Firearms stats

 

Fantasy Hero has some early firearms on its weapons list. The stats may not be 100% accurate, but they are close enough to satisfy a casual glance, and playable enough that players wouldn't just ignore them until someone invented the revolver.