Posted February 23, 200619 yr comment_39241 You know, writers can't write without cliches, and GMs can't run NPCs without them either... So, I propose a new thread, one based on cliches, to help those GMs out there who are in need of ideas. So, without further ado, I post a couple links to some cliche lists and helpful docs I've found... The Movie Cliche List http://www.moviecliches.com/ The Grand List Of Console Role Playing Game Clichés http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html Have fun! Jak
February 24, 200619 yr Author comment_950717 Re: Let 'em eat clichés These may not help, since it Pulp Hero board and all, but you never know... The Grand List of Overused Science Fiction Cliches http://www.geocities.com/evilsnack/cliche.htm Who woulda' thunk? FindCliches.com http://www.findcliches.com/ All kinds of cliche categories Jak
February 24, 200619 yr comment_951101 Re: Let 'em eat clichés There's a fine line between genre cliche and genre trope. How do you place it?
February 24, 200619 yr Author comment_951110 Re: Let 'em eat clichés There's a fine line between genre cliche and genre trope. How do you place it? Ow! See, now you made my brain hurt. Perhaps some of our more literary friends can help? Jak
February 24, 200619 yr comment_951145 Re: Let 'em eat clichés If people roll their eyes when they hear it, it's a cliche. ^ v ^ Actually, I'm not sure there IS much of a distinction between a trope and a cliche. I guess it tends to depend on volume. If you can't go through a chapter of a novel or a section of a roleplaying game without falling back on a cliche, it's merely cliche. If it's a starting-off point, a minor element, a background point and not everything your story revolves around, it's a trope. Though I don't think that really even could apply to all situations. I dunno. I guess the question to ask is: could this be addressed with something more original and retain the same feel? If the answer's yes, you're dealing in cliche.
February 24, 200619 yr comment_951163 Re: Let 'em eat clichés Hmmm... I have to go find some murder mystery clichés. Anybody want to save me a bit of work?
February 24, 200619 yr comment_951178 Re: Let 'em eat clichés Hmmm... I have to go find some murder mystery clichés. Anybody want to save me a bit of work? Okay, you decide: Trope or Cliche? Murder victim that every character hates, either openly or secretly (T or C) Stopped clock (T or C) "The butler did it" (misdirection via plot role) (T or C) Quirky detective (T or C) Lights go out to conceal the crime (T or C) Detective gathers everyone together at the end to render the solution (T or C) Suspect is secretly a relative of the deceased (T or C) Clue grasped in dead victim's hand (T or C) Matchbook cover (T or C) Suspect inflicts own wounds to absolve self of suspicion (T or C) Character discovers murderer but is murdered on the way to inform the detective (T or C)
February 24, 200619 yr comment_951203 Re: Let 'em eat clichés Okay, you decide: Trope or Cliche? Murder victim that every character hates, either openly or secretly (T or C) Stopped clock (T or C) "The butler did it" (misdirection via plot role) (T or C) Quirky detective (T or C) Lights go out to conceal the crime (T or C) Detective gathers everyone together at the end to render the solution (T or C) Suspect is secretly a relative of the deceased (T or C) Clue grasped in dead victim's hand (T or C) Matchbook cover (T or C) Suspect inflicts own wounds to absolve self of suspicion (T or C) Character discovers murderer but is murdered on the way to inform the detective (T or C) I think all of the above could be either or neither, depending on the context. Are ALL of these used in the same story? Does the reader figure out who the killer is BECAUSE of the path of cliches that was laid down? Let me take these one at a time: Murder victim that every character hates, either openly or secretly - In a good story, this serves to create red herrings in the number of people who hate the victim. This makes them ALL suspects that need to be weeded through. Stopped clock - Isn't it traditional to stop the clock in a house where a person has died? I think this one's mostly trope. misdirection via plot role - Red herrings are an essential part of any mystery. Quirky detective - Who wants to read about some ordinary, nondescript man solving crimes? Giving the detective quirks is the best way to make him stand out, and those whose minds work differently than the average person's DO tend to behave a bit differently. In the case of Monk, it's his obsessive attention to detail that makes him both nutty and the best detective in his city. Lights go out to conceal the crime - It is a good way to create confusion and make it so that one can't be seen committing a crime. If one has to do it out in the open, this is a good way to manage it. Detective gathers everyone together at the end to render the solution - This is more cliche than trope. It serves to dramatically increase the tension until the very last moment. Suspect is secretly a relative of the deceased - Again, this is more cliche than trope, though it CAN work. If throwing out red herrings, giving a suspect a decent motive is a good idea, and that one tends to be pretty compelling. Having a motive in the first place is also a good idea. Clue grasped in dead victim's hand - Cliche if a clue couldn't be picked up in any other manner. This gives a clear, unmistakable clue to the detective, and therefore a lead. Since they have to start SOMEWHERE, leaving the lead someplace obvious is a good idea. Though why the murdurer didn't think of it is up to the reader to ponder. Matchbook cover - Again, the detective has to start somewhere, and matchbooks can be picked up almost anywhere you go, especially hotels and restaurants. It creates a lead. Suspect inflicts own wounds to absolve self of suspicion - See above, re: red herrings. Character discovers murderer but is murdered on the way to inform the detective - The murdurer obviously doesn't want to get caught, and has shown he (or she) is capable of killing a person. Why not? The alternative is for nobody else to ever stumble across an unmistakable clue that the detective has no access to, and for the murderer to not care about said clue.
February 24, 200619 yr Author comment_951205 Re: Let 'em eat clichés Hmmm... been thinking about this a little... There's not much difference between trope and cliche. A cliche is looked upon as a small element of a story, a thing, a character, an action. Whereas a trope is more story related. Perhaps a story that is driven by a cliche is a trope. Hmmm... Jak
February 24, 200619 yr comment_951231 Re: Let 'em eat clichés There's not much difference between trope and cliche. A cliche is looked upon as a small element of a story' date=' a thing, a character, an action. Whereas a trope is more story related. Perhaps a story that is driven by a cliche is a trope.[/quote'] I kind of see it the other way around. Tropes are mostly setting or "color" elements. A story should have a reasonably fresh plot progression; when the plot (or God forbid, the twist) hinges on some hoary old trope, you've got a cliche on your hands. My take: Murder victim that every character hates, either openly or secretly (T - it can be overdone, but shouldn't automatically take a reader out of the story) Stopped clock (C - done to death; be more creative with time clues) "The butler did it" (misdirection via plot role) (C - it's not a surprise anymore) Quirky detective (T - with the caveat that the "detective" shouldn't always, or even often be an external, uninvolved character; or even a detective for that matter) Lights go out to conceal the crime (C - done to death; be more creative with concealing the crime) Detective gathers everyone together at the end to render the solution (C - artificial) Suspect is secretly a relative of the deceased (C - secret kinship is so rare in RL as to be cheesy in most contexts) Clue grasped in dead victim's hand (C - there are a thousand more interesting ways for clues to be discovered) Matchbook cover (C - done to death; plus who carries matchbooks anymore?) Suspect inflicts own wounds to absolve self of suspicion (T - happens in RL all the time) Character discovers murderer but is murdered on the way to inform the detective (T - but should be employed creatively)
February 24, 200619 yr comment_951320 Re: Let 'em eat clichés I kind of see it the other way around. Tropes are mostly setting or "color" elements. A story should have a reasonably fresh plot progression; when the plot (or God forbid' date=' the twist) hinges on some hoary old trope, you've got a cliche on your hands.[/quote'] That is kind of how I was seeing it. A trope would be something that is easily identified with, or identifies a genre. It provides color and mood, but doesn't detract from the story telling. As you point out, a trope can be abused so bad that it becomes a cliche. For instance, the hard-boiled detective. You read about the hard boiled detective, you know your in for a story of mystery, intrigue, and probably a bit of violence here and there. Slang, another trope. The HB detective speaks with language of the street. Calling every dame he meets, "A gal with a great gams." Thats a cliche.
February 25, 200619 yr comment_951787 Re: Let 'em eat clichés I also think that cliches are used intentionally more often.
February 25, 200619 yr comment_951968 Re: Let 'em eat clichés I'd say it's the other way around. If it's being used on purpose, it's meant to be a trope. Cliches are things people fall back on when they're not paying attention.
February 25, 200619 yr comment_952003 Re: Let 'em eat clichés There's a fine line between genre cliche and genre trope. How do you place it? If it adds to the flavor of the game (and its default genre) and everyone's enjoyment its a genre trope. If it comes off as hackneyed and annoying its a cliche. Not much help, but that's my 2AP.
February 26, 200619 yr comment_952705 Re: Let 'em eat clichés Whether your players will accept a cliche or a trope also depends on what sort of game you're running. If the session revolves around the mystery and the plot, they might well want something a little more sophisticated in the way of a trope. If they're just having a character-driven good time, finding a matchbook with "Club ChiChi" and a phone number is just fun.
February 27, 200619 yr comment_953261 Re: Let 'em eat clichés Whether your players will accept a cliche or a trope also depends on what sort of game you're running. If the session revolves around the mystery and the plot' date=' they might well want something a little more sophisticated in the way of a trope. If they're just having a character-driven good time, finding a matchbook with "Club ChiChi" and a phone number is just fun.[/quote'] I really want to run a game where this kind of thing happens... actually "A Night at the Roxberry" meets Hard Boiled Pulp would be a fantastic sidestep into that kind of reality.
February 27, 200619 yr Author comment_953562 Re: Let 'em eat clichés I really want to run a game where this kind of thing happens... actually "A Night at the Roxberry" meets Hard Boiled Pulp would be a fantastic sidestep into that kind of reality. Ha! That made me laugh out loud... Might be a fun game! At least the game would have a good soundtrack! Jak "What is love?"
March 10, 200619 yr Author comment_963943 Re: Let 'em eat clichés Here's a link I just found... Pulp Cliches for the RISUS RPG http://www.guyhoyle.net/risus/PulpCliches.htm Jak
March 10, 200619 yr Author comment_963956 Re: Let 'em eat clichés Even more RISUS cliche stuff: A QUICK GUIDE TO THE ANATOMY OF A CLICHÉ http://risus.guyhoyle.net/anatomy.htm Jak
May 15, 200619 yr Author comment_1018630 Re: Let 'em eat clichés This was posted in the latest edition of RoleplayingTips: Generic RPG Cliche' List http://atrocities.primaryerror.net/rpgcliches.html Jak
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