VPP and Advantages

[Eodin]

Don't have my book available to look it up...

Anybody remember if I can apply Reduced END and Variable FX to the Control Cost of a VPP so that all powers created in it have those advantages?

[schir1964]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Don't have my book available to look it up...

Anybody remember if I can apply Reduced END and Variable FX to the Control Cost of a VPP so that all powers created in it have those advantages?

Yes. Unless there is some wierd ruling in 5th Edition Revised that I don't know about.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Actually common Advantages don't apply to the Control. If you think about it, requiring all Powers to have those Advantages would actually be limiting the kind of powers that you can put into a VPP. I'd be hard pressed to make such a small restriction anything more than a -0 myself, though. YMMV.

 

If you mean applying it to the Control and not buying up the Reserve itself to account for the Advantage(s), the answer is definitely, "NO!"

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

If I read this right, you have (say) a 60 point VPP, and you want to pay +1/2 on the control cost (15 points) to make all powers in the VPP cost 0 END.

 

I don't think paying 15 points to make 60 AP of powers cost 0 END, so I'd have to say that's not legal.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Nope you cannot apply advantages to the control cost to give them to powers in a VPP.

 

We've houseruled that you can in our camaigns for years, but the advantage hast to be double normal. So 0 end would be a +1 control cost advantage.

[schir1964]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Sorry Hugh, unfortunately you are incorrect.

Characters never apply Advantages or Limitations to the Pool cost. However, the Control Cost may have Advantages and Limitations to represent different kinds of Variable Power Pools.

Although, having Advantages on the Control Cost does push the effective level of the powers in the pool since part of the Active Points are automatically being used by the Advantages being forced on them.

[prestidigitator]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Sorry Hugh, unfortunately you are incorrect.

Characters never apply Advantages or Limitations to the Pool cost. However, the Control Cost may have Advantages and Limitations to represent different kinds of Variable Poewr Pools.

Although, having Advantages on the Control Cost does push the effective level of the powers in the pool since part of the Active Points are automatically being used by the Advantages being forced on them.

Or LIMITATIONS?! I could swear you can place Limitations on the Control that must be present on all Powers in the VPP. Not Advantages, but Limitations. Did you leave out something relavent in that section?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Double checking the rules, it seems I was mistaken.

 

5th ER page 322:

With the GM permission, a character can take an Advantage (such as Reduced Endurance or Armor Piercing) on a VPP and have that advantage apply to all powers built with the VPP, using the same rules for doing this with a Multipower (see above).

 

The examples that followed pretty much make it clear that if you have say a 100 pt pool reserve and then you put 0 end on the control, you can have a 20d6 eb at 0 end.

 

Whoops.

Guess I don't have to charge doulbe anymore.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Or LIMITATIONS?! I could swear you can place Limitations on the Control that must be present on all Powers in the VPP. Not Advantages' date=' but Limitations. Did you leave out something relavent in that section?[/quote']

 

 

Yep.

Page 324 of Revised:

The third type of Limitation affects the powers brought through the power Pool. This sort of Limitation is taken for both the Control Cost and for any powers built with the power pool.

[schir1964]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Or LIMITATIONS?! I could swear you can place Limitations on the Control that must be present on all Powers in the VPP. Not Advantages' date=' but Limitations. Did you leave out something relavent in that section?[/quote']

Nope.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

5th ER page 322:

With the GM permission, a character can take an Advantage (such as Reduced Endurance or Armor Piercing) on a VPP and have that advantage apply to all powers built with the VPP, using the same rules for doing this with a Multipower (see above).

And the same rules of a Multipower require that each power include that Advantage in its writeup, thus reducing its effectiveness due to sharing the Active Points with the Advantage.

 

Just A Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

And the same rules of a Multipower require that each power include that Advantage in its writeup, thus reducing its effectiveness due to sharing the Active Points with the Advantage.

 

Just A Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Ummm, not exactly.

 

Page 323 Revised:

A character with an Advantaged VPP can create a power with it whose Active Points exceed the points in the pool solely because of application of the Advantage on the VPP - the Active point total that matters for these purposes is the power's Active Point without the Advantage. For example, using the 100 pt VPP described above [ed note - it is a 100 pt pool with 0 end on the control cost], a character could buy an Energy Blast 20d6 with it, since that's 100 active point - even though the +1/2 advantage would make the EB cost "150 Active points" if it were applied to the EB seperatly.

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

And the same rules of a Multipower require that each power include that Advantage in its writeup, thus reducing its effectiveness due to sharing the Active Points with the Advantage.

 

Just A Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

Lord Mhoram is correct.

 

p319 states an Advantage bought on a Multipower Pool does not have to be bought again for each power - it automatically applies.

 

Though it does state that the prefered method is to buy the advantage for each slot, even if it's the same advantage on every slot.

 

The character is also not restricted to buying powers that can only take the Advantage applied, they may buy powers that cannot gain the benefit of the purchased advantage.

 

Buying an Advantage on the Pool of either an MP or VPP is firmly into GMs Call Land.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Lord Mhoram is correct.

Buying an Advantage on the Pool of either an MP or VPP is firmly into GMs Call Land.

 

Thank you.

I'm glad this came up, I had misread this before. We'd been houseruling what was correct to the rules. *sigh* Time to reread the rules from front to back, every word and see what else I'm doing wrong. I hate "trans-editional" problems.

 

And a 0 End VPP is great for a martial arts pool. Just thought I should mention that.

[schir1964]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Ummm, not exactly.

 

Page 323 Revised:

A character with an Advantaged VPP can create a power with it whose Active Points exceed the points in the pool solely because of application of the Advantage on the VPP - the Active point total that matters for these purposes is the power's Active Point without the Advantage. For example, using the 100 pt VPP described above [ed note - it is a 100 pt pool with 0 end on the control cost], a character could buy an Energy Blast 20d6 with it, since that's 100 active point - even though the +1/2 advantage would make the EB cost "150 Active points" if it were applied to the EB seperatly.

I stand corrected. < nods >

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Lord Mhoram is correct.

 

p319 states an Advantage bought on a Multipower Pool does not have to be bought again for each power - it automatically applies.

 

Though it does state that the prefered method is to buy the advantage for each slot, even if it's the same advantage on every slot.

 

The character is also not restricted to buying powers that can only take the Advantage applied, they may buy powers that cannot gain the benefit of the purchased advantage.

 

Buying an Advantage on the Pool of either an MP or VPP is firmly into GMs Call Land.

Ahhh... more inconsistency with the rules... just gotta love it. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

I stand corrected. < nods >

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Yeah. I've been misreading that since 5th came out.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Page 323 Revised:

A character with an Advantaged VPP can create a power with it whose Active Points exceed the points in the pool solely because of application of the Advantage on the VPP - the Active point total that matters for these purposes is the power's Active Point without the Advantage. For example, using the 100 pt VPP described above [ed note - it is a 100 pt pool with 0 end on the control cost], a character could buy an Energy Blast 20d6 with it, since that's 100 active point - even though the +1/2 advantage would make the EB cost "150 Active points" if it were applied to the EB seperatly.

This looks like another brain fart. It lays out the welcome mat for munchkins and rules abuse and unbalanced powers.

 

With this ruling, I could buy

 

100 point VPP, with +1 of Advantages on the Control cost 50 x (1+1) = 100

 

For a total of 200 points.

 

Then I can buy any 100 (base) point power, and get the +1 Advantage "for free", resulting in a 200 AP power! Any 200 AP power provided it's 100 base and the standard +1 of Advantages! For the same price as a single 200 AP power! WTF? There is no smiley that fully expresses how stupid I think this ruling is.

 

For 100 (pool) + 75 (control + 0 END) = 175 points, I can then buy 100 points of ANY POWER AT ALL at 0 END! Just for the record, a single 100 point power at 0 END costs 150 points. A 150 point Multipower with only two slots (ultras) costs more (180) than the unlimited slots of the VPP!

 

My advice is to take a thick black magic marker and cross out that rule from the rulebooks. We all can see that it's wrong, can't we?

 

I guess now I'm in even less of a hurry to buy 5ER. I'll stick with FREd.

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

I can certainly see where some people wouldn't like the rule.

 

It is, for all intents and purposes, and Optional Rule. Which add more options and flexability to the Game.

 

Beyond the knee jerk reactions of how eeevil this is, or inconsistant I have only one question:

 

Lord Mhoram has it unbalanced your games to any significant degree to use the Rule this way?

 

If the answer is "no" the nay-sayers may now sit down and use it as they see fit in their Game, and not tell the rest of us how unbalanced and unfair we are being if we decide to implement this Option.

[Threnody]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Ummm, not exactly.

 

Page 323 Revised:

A character with an Advantaged VPP can create a power with it whose Active Points exceed the points in the pool solely because of application of the Advantage on the VPP - the Active point total that matters for these purposes is the power's Active Point without the Advantage. For example, using the 100 pt VPP described above [ed note - it is a 100 pt pool with 0 end on the control cost], a character could buy an Energy Blast 20d6 with it, since that's 100 active point - even though the +1/2 advantage would make the EB cost "150 Active points" if it were applied to the EB seperatly.

:jawdrop:

Let me see I got it right. You can put a Adv. on the control cost, get it on the Power, and still fit it in? Man, that'll bring the munchkins in herds!

 

I mean, put "Only one power (-1)" and "Only for ____ (-?)" on the control cost, and all the Lims you want the Power to have, and get your Adv.s for free.

 

:jawdrop:

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Lord Mhoram has it unbalanced your games to any significant degree to use the Rule this way?

 

If the answer is "no" the nay-sayers may now sit down and use it as they see fit in their Game, and not tell the rest of us how unbalanced and unfair we are being if we decide to implement this Option.

 

Nope.

But it hasn't been used all that much, as we watch it closely as GMs. Mostly has been used for 0 end, for pools that represent something that would never cost end, such as matial strikes or superskills.

 

For those that feel it is too powerful, you can try this as an optional (it's what we have used) - allow the advantage on the control but at double cost - that means it costs the same as buying the advantage on the power normally.

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Nope.

But it hasn't been used all that much, as we watch it closely as GMs. Mostly has been used for 0 end, for pools that represent something that would never cost end, such as matial strikes or superskills.

 

For those that feel it is too powerful, you can try this as an optional (it's what we have used) - allow the advantage on the control but at double cost - that means it costs the same as buying the advantage on the power normally.

excellent. thank you.

 

 

...not to seem confrontational (well, a little) - I honestly don't mind it when people don't like something in the System or in their Games. What gets my hackles up is when people go on these defacto rants about how suddenly the system is trashed, incosistent or just plain broken when they find something distasteful.

 

Don't like it? Don't use it. Tell us you don't like it, but make sure you put it so that it's clear it's a personal preference and not a slander against the System. Really, it's purile to act that way.

 

As for muchkins... and group worth it's salt will just stomp on them. Grow a pair and tell 'em NO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Sticking with the 100 point VPP example, why should it be possible to spend 25 points and make every power within that VPP cost 0 END? That VPP costs (absent other modifiers) 175 points, 100 pool + 75 Control cost.

 

Making a 100 point Multipower 0 END would be a +1/2 advantage on the reserve, or a 50 point cost. If we double the cost of the advantage, a more appropriate (IMO) result is obtained, because the advantage is now effectively purchased on the VPP reserve.

[Eodin]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Ummm.... Thanks for checking on this for me.

 

I didn't have my book at the office, and had an idea during a coffee break. Didn't mean to start a controversy...

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Ummm.... Thanks for checking on this for me.

 

I didn't have my book at the office, and had an idea during a coffee break. Didn't mean to start a controversy...

controversy happens. we'll all live I'm sure.