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VPP and Advantages


Eodin

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Re: VPP and Advantages

 

I don't run fantasy games so I'm having little trouble getting my head around the concept. It seems what you are suggesting that that Contol Cost is being used as "buy in" value for magic school which grants a bunch of freebies underneath.

 

Well, applying the advantage ot the control cost helps seperate the High and Hedge magic--along with all the accounting simplicity it brings, the ease of available DC's. For that campaign, it owkrs because PC's that are not High Mafic users are very likely non mages, or just using small amounts of Hedge magic to supplement their area of specialization.

 

In my very off the cuff creation, their is a perk associated that you have to have as well. I had an image of certain citadels, magic places where you had to be 'of the High Blood' to enter or fully make use. Oddly enough, that idea game from Stargate. You could have the perk, never learn High Magic, but still use High Magic items and be allowed in such places.

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Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Ok.

 

Let's throw a real situation into the mix, instead of talking in hypotheticals. Before this thread sprang up, I had already used the rule under debate here (the original can be found here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42803 )

 

Combat Enhancement VPP 30

Useable on Others (+1/4)

Very Limited Class (-1)

Control Cost: 9

 

VPP provides access to Skills as Powers: Martial Manoeuvres, 3pt CSLs, Quickdraw, Defensive Manoeuvre, Weapon Familiarity etc... If it's not obvious, these are for powering up the sword's wielder.

 

These powers belong to a sentient magical sword, and are bestowed on it's wielder.

 

I'm not going to try and argue that this particular VPP is either balanced or not. In fact, I'm not entirely positive that the skills it is providing are technically allowed to be in a VPP in the first place.

 

It may, however, provide a focus for one side or the other (or both) to argue their point.

 

Interestingly, no one commented on the advantaged control pool in the original thread.

 

(Edit: my original post listed Limted Class as a -1/4 lim)

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Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Well' date=' applying the advantage ot the control cost helps seperate the High and Hedge magic--along with all the accounting simplicity it brings, the ease of available DC's. For that campaign, it owkrs because PC's that are not High Mafic users are very likely non mages, or just using small amounts of Hedge magic to supplement their area of specialization.[/quote']

 

So we've written off the Hedge Wizard as a viable player character from the outset (restricts choice, but that's what the campaign design is set up to do). We still want characters who are not High Mages, however, or at least we apparently do. So the discount-priced advantage enjoyed by all high mages over, say, the warrior of the group include:

 

- Automatic penetration of Hedge Magic defenses

- Automatic ability to affect desolid opponents (something very tough for our swordsman to duplicate)

- Reduced vulnerability to hedge magic (swordsman's Armor isn't hardened, I assume)

 

The High Mage gets each of these advantages, automatically, on his powers for a cost of 1/2 the control cost on his VPP. He has some mandatory limitations on his VPP, and (I assume) enjoys the reduction in cost of each spell within his VPP which arises from the required RSR limitation, but does not have to gross up the AP for the various advantages placed on his spells.

 

I'm not buying the "simplifying" benefit on a VPP with this many rights and restrictions already.

 

I do think this could be more balanced than many uses of the optional rule, simply because all the advantages won't benefit any single power (Hardened applies only to defenses and Affects Desolid, and Penetrating only matter for attacks).

 

I believe this could be accomplished as readily with a Partially Limited VPP (some portion of the pool being only to add the advantages desired, and not otherwise usable). This would force the High Mage to pay the full freight for his abilities.

 

It could also be accomplished by imposing a -0 limitation or disadvantage on the rest of the world (ie that High Magic is always penetrating, hardened, affects desolid and and difficult to dispel unless the character has purchased the High Magic perk), giving a discount to the High Mage.

 

Thus, I don't think the "advantage on control cost" option is essential to creation of such a setting.

 

Is it balanced? I don't know. The only real test for such a structure will lie within the campaign itself. If the advantages of High Magic are so manifest that players must either use High Magic or be relegated to sidekick status, then it's not balanced. If the non-mages are competetive with the mages, then it's balanced. A lot depends on what proportion of challenges faced by the characters are more easily resolved due to the advantages of High Magic. If they're ghost hunters, that Affects Desolid will be very valuable. If they rarely deal with hedge wizardry or non-corporeal beings, it may just be flavour that High Magic is especially effective. And the existence of some restrictions on High Magic powers can be tailored to allow other character types the chance to shine.

 

My gut feel? The High Mage strikes me as a potentially unbalanced prestige class from another system.

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Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Part of me wonders why I'm even respondign to your post. Thsi idea was a quick brainstorm--now you're going off with all sorts of carefulyl crafted assumptions about a game you know even less than my meager begginning to get to your alread made decision. But what the heck, let's give it a go.

 

 

So we've written off the Hedge Wizard as a viable player character from the outset (restricts choice, but that's what the campaign design is set up to do).

 

Maybe you have, if you just value characters for their combat potential. they have a wider variety off abilities, easier skill roll, anyone can learn it. It would be the school of choice for magic users who focus on items other than direct cmbat, such as a wilderness warrior type, a bard type. Find water, create a safe environment in bad weather, that sort of thing. You could fling a fireball, if you wanted, but the High Wizard will have an edge on you. (How much of an edge--well, his defenses are hardenned. If you don't use an AP attack...). the ultimate balance would depend on a full spell selection--and now, I'm not going to make one up for you, since you decided, with no real information available, the Hedge Wizard couldn't be a viable PC. Thats worse than a strawman, its pure fabrication.

 

So the discount-priced advantage enjoyed by all high mages over, say, the warrior of the group include:

 

- Automatic penetration of Hedge Magic defenses

 

Thats assuming the penetration advantage is needed to get through Hedge Wizard defenses. the sowrdsman isn't paying anything for his attacks aanyway, unliek the High Mage.

 

- Automatic ability to affect desolid opponents (something very tough for our swordsman to duplicate)

 

Hard for any swordsman in a magic system with out usually a magic weapon which is, usually, free! Oh no!

 

- Reduced vulnerability to hedge magic (swordsman's Armor isn't hardened, I assume)

 

Nope. Of course, with much of Hedge Magic possibly coverign secondary effects, the swordsmans armor may not mean a thing. Armor doesn't stop a slumber spell, an extreme cold spell, a plant or earth entanglement....

 

The High Mage gets each of these advantages, automatically, on his powers for a cost of 1/2 the control cost on his VPP.

 

The custom advantage that reflects these powers hasn't been set either.

 

He has some mandatory limitations on his VPP, and (I assume) enjoys the reduction in cost of each spell within his VPP which arises from the required RSR limitation, but does not have to gross up the AP for the various advantages placed on his spells.

 

Nor does he have extra AP available when his spell selection includes many that can't, have those advantages.

 

I'm not buying the "simplifying" benefit on a VPP with this many rights and restrictions already.

 

 

I believe this could be accomplished as readily with a Partially Limited VPP (some portion of the pool being only to add the advantages desired, and not otherwise usable). This would force the High Mage to pay the full freight for his abilities.

 

There's nothng to say the custom advantage imposed won't already do that.

 

 

 

Thus, I don't think the "advantage on control cost" option is essential to creation of such a setting.

 

Essential no--there are other ways to do it--but this way is less complicated, and works just as well, or better than other options. Most of the other options make advancement too fifficult for High Mages. Their advantages would mean little when aan equal rate of XP development means the Hedge Wizards just manhandles them with gross power. (after all, the Hedge wizards will have versions of the High Wizards spells, plus spells the High Wizard won't have)

 

If the advantages of High Magic are so manifest that players must either use High Magic or be relegated to sidekick status, then it's not balanced. If the non-mages are competetive with the mages, then it's balanced.

 

My initial vision is of High Wizards having an edge in the sheer power of combat, and Hedge Wizards being more flexible. The vast majority of Hedge Wizards would have a smaller reserve to start with.

 

the really ultimate, nasty mages would be the guys who know both styles.

 

My gut feel? The High Mage strikes me as a potentially unbalanced prestige class from another system.

 

Call me suspcisios that, at least unconsciously your gut feel was predetermined because you don't like any build placing the advantage cost in the control side of the pool. Its ok to hate an optional rule and never want to use it no matter what personally though. I feel the same way about some ideas out there (like real point reserves for MP's) but relaize that may be the way some other GM wants to get the job done.

 

At the end of the day, I'm ok with leaving more doors open than closed.

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Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Here's the deal: if you really want a set of common Advantages on a VPP, you should really have to pay as if those Advantages were on the base Reserve as well as the Control (that's sort of the equivalent of three times the cost, not double; but not quite because it would behave differently if there are other Advantages on the Control).

 

Buying it that way would accurately reflect that the Active Points of the slots actually do have to be less than the cost of the Reserve. In fact it would be on the expensive side, as Advantages applied to the slots would essentially be having an Advantage applied to them after the fact. It also would mean the character couldn't allocate their full Reserve in the Real Points of their slots, so again it is erring on the expensive side. But if you really need to be lazy and write common Advantages like this to save bookkeeping while creating slot constructs, at least it would cost you points rather than giving you points. :rolleyes:

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Re: VPP and Advantages

 

Okay, after going back and reading, and rereading, and comparing different sections this is what I have discovered.

 

Based on the Hero 5th Edition rules this is what it states:

 

1) Advantages on the Framework of Multipowers/VPP do not force the slots to have them in their writeups like the rule for Limitations. This is default rule, it is not an Option as far as the text is concerned. The GM is warned that this rule gives points away for free and therefore needs to be monitored.

 

2) In order override this rule, the GM must take proactive action and change the rule for his game, but this is not offered as a standard rulebook option.

 

Now I don't know if the Revised Version has changed or clarified any of this. If it has, please post it here for clarification.

 

Finally, this is what I have concluded:

 

1) This should not be the default ruling. If anything, it should be an option available to the GM and a Stop Sign should be slapped on it in addition to the warning about giving away free points.

 

2) I'm still not sure that even such an Option is needed for any SFX/Setting, however, if such an Option existed as stated above, there is enough doubt about its application by other players that I would not try to get rid of it, but simply choose to not use it for my campaigns.

 

3) The Best Solution would be to have this rule as an Option for the GM, but changed to try make the points less of a free give away. One suggestion is to change the rule to make all Advantages used in this manner double their value. Another suggestion for the VPP specifically would to make such Advantages apply the Pool Reserve instead or in addition to the Control Cost. This would make such an option more palatable even for my games if I were to ever find a need for it.

 

See!! I do change my mind, but I have to be given a very good reason to do so. (8^D)

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

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