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Need help with...The List...


Dr. MID-Nite

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Here's the situation...The main master villain of my campaign, being a paranoid son of a gun, has put together a list of the opposition, both heroic and villainous, that he'd like out of the way. Now, my question is....who should be on this list? I'm using the Champions Universe and would like a list of roughly 50/50 ratio to bad/good. The list can be individuals or organizations(long as they can be summed up in a single word..like VIPER). Individuals would be prefered over organizations...to keep things tidy, but open to suggestions I'm thinking maybe 20 or so names on the lists. Now...who would you put on...The List?

 

Rob

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Re: Need help with...The List...

 

Really, It would depend on who the master villain is. What are his/her priorities? Is he/she more mystical or high tech, or what? And what does he/she think of the areas that said villain doesn't have power in... does the villain scoff at them as unimportant, or does lack of knowledge power in that area make them even more leery in it?

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Really' date=' It would depend on who the master villain is. What are his/her priorities? Is he/she more mystical or high tech, or what? And what does he/she think of the areas that said villain doesn't have power in... does the villain scoff at them as unimportant, or does lack of knowledge power in that area make them even more leery in it?[/quote']

 

I'll try to clarify without revealing too much. The villain's name is Paragon. He posesses superhuman intelligence....and generally has the ability to find out just about anything he needs to know about his targets. In a nutshell, he wants to eliminate any potential threats to his plans. He is impossibly paranoid...and sees any being with the power and/or intelligence to thwart him as a potential threat...even those who aren't actively campaigning against him. The nearest analogy I can think of would be Ozmandias from The Watchmen...in essence..a grand schemer on an immense scale.

 

Rob

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Well, right off the bat I would say the following idividuals would be considered "intelectual rivals" in the CU.

 

Menton

Dr. Destroyer

Telios

Mentiac

Mechanon

Dr. Silverback

 

also possibly Arvad The Betrayer, if he knows anything about him.

 

Not a single person on that list has an INT score of less then 30.

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Well, right off the bat I would say the following idividuals would be considered "intelectual rivals" in the CU.

 

Menton

Dr. Destroyer

Telios

Mentiac

Mechanon

Dr. Silverback

 

also possibly Arvad The Betrayer, if he knows anything about him.

 

Not a single person on that list has an INT score of less then 30.

 

Paragon knows of the existence of Lemuria. Some good choices to start off with. I'll try to include some names I think will be on there for sure...

 

Dr. Destroyer(in my campaign...already "dealt with")

Menton

Tetsuronin

Rashindar

Mind Titan(4th ed, but updated to 5th)-Already "dealt with".

Takofanes

Gravitar

 

Mechanon doesn't exist in my campaign. Teleios is a threat, but is actually working with Paragon...so won't be on the list. Dr. Silverback, while intelligent, doesn't have the power to make a dent in Paragon's plans and isn't on the list. In any event, he's been "dealt with" most effectively already.

 

Rob

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Viper - the baddest, meanest, criminal group out there

Dark Seraph / Crowns of Krim - demonic powerhouses

Warlord - highend powerarmor, superteam, and an army

Takofanes

Gravitar

Menton

Champions (assuming they exist and are senior heroes)

Cybermind - just too dangerous to be left free

Taurus & the Zodiac (from 4th ed)

Justice Squadron

[the player characters]

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One person that I would want to remove would be Foxbat. Not because he is a genius, not because he is uber-powerful, but because he is nuts. He's a veritable loose cannon, and, as a hyper-intelligent supervillain, I want to minimize all the random elements which could possibly disrupt my plan.

 

After all, you can predict what Dr. Silverback will do, or Mechanon, or Defender, or even Firewing. But with Foxbat, there is a 50-50 chance that he decides to "help" you, in the same way that a two-year-old can "help" in the kitchen - well-intended perhaps, but potentially very, very messy.

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Viper - the baddest, meanest, criminal group out there

Dark Seraph / Crowns of Krim - demonic powerhouses

Warlord - highend powerarmor, superteam, and an army

Takofanes

Gravitar

Menton

Champions (assuming they exist and are senior heroes)

Cybermind - just too dangerous to be left free

Taurus & the Zodiac (from 4th ed)

Justice Squadron

[the player characters]

 

I would have to agree with the Crowns of Krim, but not so much with The Warlord, who I feel is highly overated. His powers are pretty easily circumvented IMO and his superteam is on the low end of the power scale. I'm not so sure about Cybermind either. Yeah, he's dangerous, but really...he doesn't have much ambition. Could be a potential threat, but as he has no other abilities, he'd be as good as dead as soon as Paragon decided it. I'd consider The Champions, but since the campaign opened with their disappearance(to be replaced by the PCs) I doubt they're even in the running.

 

So...thus far...

 

Dr. Destroyer

Menton

Takofanes

Crowns of Krim

Rashindar

Mind Titan

Gravitar

Tetsuronin

VIPER(or at least infiltrating/eliminating The Supreme Serpent and The Council of Thirty)

Eurostar(or at least Fiacho)

 

Paragon has high level psionic and energy manipulating abilities in addition to superhuman statistics and large noncombat resources. Thus, his list is generally going to consist of those that would actually require some work to take care of.

 

That's about half the list. Any other ideas...or maybe I should have a smaller list? LOL

 

Rob

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Good point, but does Tesseract's abilities involve extradimensional movement?

 

Rob

 

More or less in terms of Special Effects of her powers, but not the actual Power, Extra-Dimensional Movement.

 

With the proviso that I don't know whether these characters/groups exist in your campaign:

 

Istvatha V'han would have to be considered one of the greatest threats Paragon could face. She can travel the dimensions and even time at will, her resources are unrivalled, and she's already demonstrated her intention to conquer the Earth.

 

Dr. Yin Wu is probably second only to Takofanes as the premier occult master villain in the world, with his own plans for conquest, and is himself suspected of meddling in the plans of other villainous forces in the past.

 

Don't forget Eclipsar, from Champions Worldwide. Tremendous raw power, coupled with the intention to destroy the Sun and end all life on Earth (and possibly the means to actually do it) makes her a fearsome wild card.

 

If Paragon has any respect for the occult, DEMON would have to be dealt with. It's by far the largest and best-organized evil cult in the world, with serious magic power.

 

As a psionic himself, I'd have to think Paragon would want to neutralize PSI as soon as possible. Their danger to his manipulations and secrets is second only to Menton's.

 

ARGENT may be a group Paragon should take seriously. They have access to some of the most advanced technology on Earth, and looking over Champions Worldwide I was struck by how many pies they have their fingers in around the globe.

 

On the heroic side, UNTIL is the premier law-enforcement agency dealing with paranormals in the world. Its resources are vast and diverse, and its influence globally pervasive.

 

The most powerful, or at least prestigious superhero teams in the present-day CU would appear to be the Sentinels and the Justice Squadron, who have combatted threats around the world and beyond. However, while the two aforementioned teams may include some mightier members, China's Tiger Squad is a far larger team and perhaps the most formidable collectively (pun intended). ;)

 

Some solo heroes haven't been given writeups yet, but their backgrounds imply that they're heavyweights in their own right. I'm thinking specifically of Hyperion, and possibly Albion, of Britain; Albion appears confined to the British Isles, though, which would likely make him less of a threat. Andre Almeda, the current Earthly Star*Guard, might also be a problem for Paragon, particularly if you run him at the power level of the SG from Galactic Champions. In any case Almeda is closely connected to a vast interstellar network of peacekeepers, which could be a danger in itself.

 

I would also expect Paragon to be watching for the rise of a new Archmage, an instant major obstacle.

 

You mentioned some Fourth Edition characters. Do you have others in mind that exist in your campaign, or would you like suggestions as to ones you can use?

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More or less in terms of Special Effects of her powers, but not the actual Power, Extra-Dimensional Movement.

 

With the proviso that I don't know whether these characters/groups exist in your campaign:

 

Istvatha V'han would have to be considered one of the greatest threats Paragon could face. She can travel the dimensions and even time at will, her resources are unrivalled, and she's already demonstrated her intention to conquer the Earth.

 

Dr. Yin Wu is probably second only to Takofanes as the premier occult master villain in the world, with his own plans for conquest, and is himself suspected of meddling in the plans of other villainous forces in the past.

 

Don't forget Eclipsar, from Champions Worldwide. Tremendous raw power, coupled with the intention to destroy the Sun and end all life on Earth (and possibly the means to actually do it) makes her a fearsome wild card.

 

If Paragon has any respect for the occult, DEMON would have to be dealt with. It's by far the largest and best-organized evil cult in the world, with serious magic power.

 

As a psionic himself, I'd have to think Paragon would want to neutralize PSI as soon as possible. Their danger to his manipulations and secrets is second only to Menton's.

 

ARGENT may be a group Paragon should take seriously. They have access to some of the most advanced technology on Earth, and looking over Champions Worldwide I was struck by how many pies they have their fingers in around the globe.

 

On the heroic side, UNTIL is the premier law-enforcement agency dealing with paranormals in the world. Its resources are vast and diverse, and its influence globally pervasive.

 

The most powerful, or at least prestigious superhero teams in the present-day CU would appear to be the Sentinels and the Justice Squadron, who have combatted threats around the world and beyond. However, while the two aforementioned teams may include some mightier members, China's Tiger Squad is a far larger team and perhaps the most formidable collectively (pun intended). ;)

 

Some solo heroes haven't been given writeups yet, but their backgrounds imply that they're heavyweights in their own right. I'm thinking specifically of Hyperion, and possibly Albion, of Britain; Albion appears confined to the British Isles, though, which would likely make him less of a threat. Andre Almeda, the current Earthly Star*Guard, might also be a problem for Paragon, particularly if you run him at the power level of the SG from Galactic Champions. In any case Almeda is closely connected to a vast interstellar network of peacekeepers, which could be a danger in itself.

 

I would also expect Paragon to be watching for the rise of a new Archmage, an instant major obstacle.

 

You mentioned some Fourth Edition characters. Do you have others in mind that exist in your campaign, or would you like suggestions as to ones you can use?

 

Thanks for the imput, Lord Liaden. I'm not tapping too much into 4th Edition(mainly cause I don't have the required material), but a few characters do exist...like the aforementioned Mind Titan(though he's already been eliminated as a threat...saving me from having to do a complete update).

 

To further help this along, I'll explain Paragon's motivation. He sees superhumans as the next step in the evolutionary chain. His analysis has determined that superhumans tend to appear more often and in greater numbers during times of crisis. However, the process is too slow....much too slow to combat the growing number of threats to earth that are coming from a vast variety of sources. Thus, his goal is to speed things along by creating a crisis so large that enough superhumans will be created to launch mankind into its next era of development without having to worry about outside threats. He's been responsible for many of the crises of the past 20 years(9/11....Hurricane Katrina....the Destruction of Detroit). None of these have had the desired effect(despite all producing more supers than were lost), so Paragon(with his superhuman level of intellect) is working on a grand scheme to finally create the superhuman Utopia. Naturally, this puts him at odds with many others...and that's the reason for the list.(In my campaign, Paragon manipulated Destroyer into the events leading to the destruction of Detroit. Destroyer is truly dead...and Paragon has taken over his organization...easy enough to do thanks to his psionic powers.)

 

I think Paragon would see Argent as easily manipulated...and thus not a real threat. PSI is another matter. in his paranoia, Paragon will probably want to deal with all psionics in one way or another, but he can strike down the vast majority of them effortlessly due to his psi powers and mundane resources...so only the most powersful psis I think would need to be added to the list...even as on ongoing campaign against psis continues. Paragon would rather not have to kill any superhumans unless he has to. To him, each death is the loss of some of the greatest human beings to have ever graced the planet, but....he also won't brook any opposition and he realizes some would oppose him to their dying breath.

 

Hope that helps a bit.

 

Rob

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Hmm. I have a character who would want to help this guy. Whisper would like the idea of so many more happy meals running around. And he doesn't have to kill his meals, it's just that he gets so much more from them if he does. If only Sir would be so kind as to get "the Mistress" to let him.

 

Back to topic. Paragon strikes me as someone who would actually be making two lists. Those who are threats and cannot be controlled, featuring the likes of Menton, and those threats that can be turned into assets, like UNTIL.

VIPER and DEMON are more difficult because of the very carefully hidden powers behind them, but individual cells would probably be very usefull.

ARGENT would have to be absorbed as soon as possible, as they have a disturbing ability to produce anti-psionic devices.

PSI could actually be controlled at a distance, but Paragon would be wise to remember the lesson of Sebasian Poe. Psimon's ego isn't so great as to ignore the benefits of being allied to an obviously powerful psychic benefactor with access to a large pool of resources.

As for Istvatha V'han, Paragon could very well make a deal with her for governance of Earth. or lure her into attacking Earth again before her forces are properly in place. It would certainly help keep up the pressure.

 

Basically, so far it sound like the Paragon is someone who would think of Nicollo Machiavelli as a simp, and his style of plots as being about as simplistic as "Snakes and Ladders."

 

I hope that helps.

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Other thoughts....

 

Holocaust - ambitious and powerful

 

Zorran the Artificer -- magic might be dangerous to Paragon and he is ambitious

 

Viperia - regardless of the fate of the rest of Viper, she is a direct threat

 

Zodiac (if you use them)

 

Yes....forgot about Holocaust....a much underestimated villain IMO.

 

Rob

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I've used the pairing of Holocaust and Gravitar a few times since 5E came out. It was suggested in a plot seed in Conquerors, Killers And Crooks; IMO it's a very natural combo, given the remarkably similar backgrounds and worldviews they share.

 

Mind you, these are two very volatile personalities, so they've been kind of the super Battling Bickersons of my campaign. They team up for awhile, then have a falling out over whose plan to follow or which one is to blame for their most recent failure, then get back together again. When they do cooperate, though, their vast combined power and wealth, Holocaust's political contacts, and Gravitar's scientific expertise can lead to devastating developments.

 

As a result of an earlier discussion about this couple on the boards, I've been toying with introducing a character come from the future to the present day: the child of Gravitar and Holocaust, with all the power of both parents. :fear:

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I've used the pairing of Holocaust and Gravitar a few times since 5E came out. It was suggested in a plot seed in Conquerors' date=' Killers And Crooks[/i']; IMO it's a very natural combo, given the remarkably similar backgrounds and worldviews they share.

 

Mind you, these are two very volatile personalities, so they've been kind of the super Battling Bickersons of my campaign. They team up for awhile, then have a falling out over whose plan to follow or which one is to blame for their most recent failure, then get back together again. When they do cooperate, though, their vast combined power and wealth, Holocaust's political contacts, and Gravitar's scientific expertise can lead to devastating developments.

 

As a result of an earlier discussion about this couple on the boards, I've been toying with introducing a character come from the future to the present day: the child of Gravitar and Holocaust, with all the power of both parents. :fear:

 

Well, having them involved DOES save paragon the hassle of dealing with them separately. :)

 

Rob

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Dr. MID-Nite, I apologize if this observation is off base, and I don't intend to offend... but from your remarks I feel I should caution you against becoming too enamored with Paragon. I've seen this with the pet characters of some GMs, and for that matter some comics creators *cough*StarlinThanos*cough* - they make their villains too perfect, without exploitable flaw or weakness, and have them effortlessly "deal with" other major villains just to demonstrate to the heroes (or in the case of RPGs, the PCs) just how bad@$$ they are. All too often said villain becomes the focus of the story rather than the heroes.

 

I'm certainly not accusing you of Mary Sue-ism, especially since I don't have the details of how you intend to use Paragon. I just felt the point was worth raising, and having done so I will now shut up and let you run your own game. :o

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Dr. MID-Nite, I apologize if this observation is off base, and I don't intend to offend... but from your remarks I feel I should caution you against becoming too enamored with Paragon. I've seen this with the pet characters of some GMs, and for that matter some comics creators *cough*StarlinThanos*cough* - they make their villains too perfect, without exploitable flaw or weakness, and have them effortlessly "deal with" other major villains just to demonstrate to the heroes (or in the case of RPGs, the PCs) just how bad@$$ they are. All too often said villain becomes the focus of the story rather than the heroes.

 

I'm certainly not accusing you of Mary Sue-ism, especially since I don't have the details of how you intend to use Paragon. I just felt the point was worth raising, and having done so I will now shut up and let you run your own game. :o

 

No offense taken. If he sounds likes he's the center of the campaign, it's because he's the major NPC shaker in the campaign. Since most of the Player characters are directly or indirectly linked with the destruction of Detroit(orchestrated by Paragon), he essentially is responsible for their being there to begin with(and ironically enough...they saved his life in their first session).

 

He may sound perfect, but that's probably because he has superhuman intelligence and psionic powers. I'd expect most things to go his way. I don't see this as being any different from the way Doctor Doom or Magneto dominates any story they're involved with...at least behind the scenes. Most of his machinations are going on behind the scenes...with some clues popping up here and there, but thus far..nothing has added up to the heroes(especially as Paragon is enamored with them and would really rather have them on his side). Ultimately, my goal is to build up to a bigger master plot that the heroes can have the opportunity to foil. But I hate plots that happen out of nowhere...with no buildup....so my campaign is the opposite....a long buildup with secret conspiracies building up exponentially.

 

As far as the campaign being focused on the villain, well...I'd say the main plot is...but the stories usually come from events in the players lives and what went on in earlier sessions...and the Paragon's stuff goes on simultaneously in the background. I'm not sure if this falls under your heading of being too in love with the baddy, but honestly...how else would I approach the situation? A master villain with a lot of resources is going to affect the game world in a big way even if I never brought his name up. I totally understand your view, but again...not sure there's a better way to handle it, but open to suggestions certainly.

 

Rob

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As long as you don't fall into the temptation to make your villain the protagonist of the story, you should be fine. :) Some GMs enjoy their villainous creations so much, make them so capable and admirable and sympathetic, that they sometimes lose sight of the PCs as the heroes of the story, and that the villain exists to highlight their heroism and to ultimately be defeated by them. It's understandable, but IME nothing poisons a gaming group worse.

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As long as you don't fall into the temptation to make your villain the protagonist of the story' date=' you should be fine. :) Some GMs enjoy their villainous creations so much, make them so capable and admirable and sympathetic, that they sometimes lose sight of the PCs as the heroes of the story, and that the villain exists to highlight their heroism and to ultimately be defeated by them. It's understandable, but IME nothing poisons a gaming group worse.[/quote']

 

Well...as Paragon is an end justifies the means type and is willing to kill millions to achieve his goals(he's intelligent, but insane to the point he can rationalize away any action..no matter how heinous), I'm hoping that alone will clearly vilefy him..and again...as he's mostly played in the background....the players still get the spotlight...even as they start to figure out something weird is going on. (" Wow...in the space of three months we've managed to put Eurostar, Holocaust, and Cybermind behind bars. We must be better than we thought.")

 

Rob

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Well, if the heroes can eventually put it together, the villains can too. It might be interesting if Paragon doesn't always succeed in eliminating the competition - if in fact some of his rivals realize they're being targeted and start fighting back. Master villains often being geniuses, that's not unreasonable. ;) The PCs could find themselves in the middle of a conflict between a known master villain and the still-unknown Paragon. One party or the other might even approach the heroes openly to attempt to recruit them to his side, which could make for some good roleplaying. It's also a good fallback position for you to identify Paragon if your players don't pick up on being manipulated; even smart players can sometimes astonish you with their obliviousness. :snicker:

 

And of course, there's always the ultimate Champions Universe deus ex machina maneuver: Dr. Destroyer knew about Paragon all along, and isn't really dead... :eg:

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Might be cool if Destroyer secretly aids the characters just enough so they can humble Paragon in combat....then Destroyer can swoop in crush Paragon and reclaim his place as the world's supreme villain.

 

Interesting idea, though the reason I "killed" him in the first place was because I thought he was ridiculously cliche(as well as obscenely powerful-my PCs would NEVER be able to defeat him in combat).

 

Rob

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