'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

[radioKAOS]

I think I might have a new one for the "Working With The HERO System FAQ": how can I simulate ghostly possession?

 

Reading this question to Steve made me think...

 

Really what's going on here is that the spirit character can use the corpse to affect the physical world...

 

an interesting idea then manifested -

 

1. A naked "Affects Physical World" with the limitations "IIF:Corpse of Opportunity" and "Side Effect:Must fulfill something left undone [in life] by target corpse" and "Side Effect: takes any damage done to Corpse"

 

Perhaps for clarification we could add something like "Can only use one Corpse at a time -0"

 

- though some may think that too cheap of a solution... it effectively turns the corpse into a Focus (which is really what it is).

 

2. Buy all the character's powers [that fit of course] with the above AFW advantage/limitation set.

 

Thoughts oh gurus of the HERO realm?

[Alibear]

Re: 'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

 

My work won't let me access that page.

 

I'm guessing that the character is a ghost but can enter corpses and use those bodies to effect the physical world?

 

How is the spirit side written up? With Desolid?

 

Anyway that would seem at first glance to be a workable solution.

[Cwylric]

Re: 'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

 

Reading this question to Steve made me think...

 

Really what's going on here is that the spirit character can use the corpse to affect the physical world...

 

an interesting idea then manifested -

 

1. A naked "Affects Physical World" with the limitations "IIF:Corpse of Opportunity" and "Side Effect:Must fulfill something left undone [in life] by target corpse" and "Side Effect: takes any damage done to Corpse"

 

Perhaps for clarification we could add something like "Can only use one Corpse at a time -0"

 

- though some may think that too cheap of a solution... it effectively turns the corpse into a Focus (which is really what it is).

 

I was thinking about that at one point - specifically, negating some of the ghostly problems, such as Always On Desolid, with a conditional IIF corpse. The problem is that this does not actually "connect" the spirit and the corpse, so that they share the same physical space, take the same damage, etc. As I mentioned in an earlier post, ideally, the spirit should provide the mind and soul, while the corpse provides the body - we shouldn't end up with two different characters (albeit, one undead and one dead).

 

It really comes down to one general problem (ignoring the situational details, such as ghostly character, corpse target, etc.): how do you simulate spiritual possession, of any sort? That is, mind control which causes the two beings to inhabit the same body. If I can figure that out, the rest will just be details that can be handled by Limitations, special effects, and such.

 

Steve mentioned Bodyjacking, from The UNTIL Superpowers Database, but I don't have access to that book. Can somebody who does shed some light on this? Does it fill the niche?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: 'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

 

Steve mentioned Bodyjacking' date=' from [b']The UNTIL Superpowers Database[/b], but I don't have access to that book. Can somebody who does shed some light on this? Does it fill the niche?

 

I don't want to give away too much of Hero Games's IP here; but essentially the Bodyjacking construct is Mind Control plus Desolid plus Clinging (to "ride" the body) plus Telepathy (to read the host's thoughts and memories - that last is probably optional). There are various Advantages and Limitations to customize it.

 

Regarding Possession generally, the topic comes up on the boards fairly frequently, and there have been a number of suggestions for how to handle it, both based on "official" published builds and original ideas. Here's a representative sampling of the discussions:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3857

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19400

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23428

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19968

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28354

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32941

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32927

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: 'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

 

It's also almost 250 points because a lot of those powers (like the Mind Control) need Affects Physical World (+2).

[Dust Raven]

Re: 'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

 

A naked "Affects Physical World" with the limitations "IIF:Corpse of Opportunity" and "Side Effect:Must fulfill something left undone [in life] by target corpse" and "Side Effect: takes any damage done to Corpse"

 

This is exactly how I'd do it. As far as the write up anyway. Concerning the effect is there essentially being a single character rather than two distinct characters, I'd use common sense in regards to the SFX. For one, there is only one character/body and never two. The corpse is just a Focus and should be treated as such during game play. It might not be obvious to those that can't perceive the spirit that the corpse is a focus and they might attack the corpse thinking it is the character. In which case, treat it like they are attack a Focus (but ignore the usual -2 penalty). Consider the corpse an Unbreakable Focus and you won't have to worry about it taking damage. The method of breaking it would involve traditional methods of stopping undead (fire, magic, divine power, etc).

 

Anyone attempting to use a Mental Power on the corpse will automatically target the spirit. Anyone using an attack on the corpse that would affect the spirit (such as an Affects Desol EB), it has whatever effect on the corpse and the spirit equally. This is probably better done as a Physical Limitation for the spirit rather than a Side Effect on any of its Powers.

[radioKAOS]

Re: 'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

 

This is exactly how I'd do it. As far as the write up anyway. Concerning the effect is there essentially being a single character rather than two distinct characters' date=' I'd use common sense in regards to the SFX. For one, there is only one character/body and never two. [b']The corpse is just a Focus and should be treated as such during game play.[/b] It might not be obvious to those that can't perceive the spirit that the corpse is a focus and they might attack the corpse thinking it is the character. In which case, treat it like they are attack a Focus (but ignore the usual -2 penalty). Consider the corpse an Unbreakable Focus and you won't have to worry about it taking damage. The method of breaking it would involve traditional methods of stopping undead (fire, magic, divine power, etc).

 

Exactly the way I was looking at it. This is not a being we're talking about here - there is no need to think of it as a target of the powers, which is primarily the way one looks at this build [i.e. Bodyjacking]. Unbreakable is a very interesting way of looking at it too, that way the corpse can't really be dispelled. Kudos.

 

Anyone attempting to use a Mental Power on the corpse will automatically target the spirit. Anyone using an attack on the corpse that would affect the spirit (such as an Affects Desol EB)' date=' it has whatever effect on the corpse and the spirit equally. [b']This is probably better done as a Physical Limitation for the spirit rather than a Side Effect on any of its Powers.[/b]

 

I thought of that originally, but then decided I liked the feel of it better as a limitation on the naked 'Affects Phsyical World' Advantage because it is really a limitation/side effect of using the advantage.

[radioKAOS]

Re: 'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

 

I was thinking about that at one point - specifically' date=' negating some of the ghostly problems, such as Always On Desolid, with a conditional IIF corpse. The problem is that this does not actually "connect" the spirit and the corpse, so that they share the same physical space, take the same damage, etc. As I mentioned in an earlier post, ideally, the spirit should provide the mind and soul, while the corpse provides the body - we shouldn't end up with two different characters (albeit, one undead and one dead).[/quote']

 

I'm not sure where you're seeing a disconnect here, the corpse is an inamimate object, not a character. It should be thought of as a focus, and that focus is a limitation on allowing your character to affect the physical world. The naked advantage would work for any power up to the specified Active Point limit, that is to say it would allow you to use your powers [including such things as your STR] in the physical realm.

 

It really comes down to one general problem (ignoring the situational details' date=' such as ghostly character, corpse target, etc.): how do you simulate spiritual possession, of any sort? That is, mind control which causes the two beings to inhabit the same body. If I can figure that out, the rest will just be details that can be handled by Limitations, special effects, and such.[/quote']

 

Agreed, that is a great question that has been floating around this board for a long time... However, this is not what you are asking for in this power build. You are asking to be able to possess a dead human. A corpse. The corpse is inanimate. It is a dead thing, much like a sword or a toaster. It is a focus, not a character, in my mindset.

 

Steve mentioned Bodyjacking' date=' from [b']The UNTIL Superpowers Database[/b], but I don't have access to that book. Can somebody who does shed some light on this? Does it fill the niche?

 

It fills the niche, rather clumsily IMO, of taking over another character's body. Not to say the power build isn't very well thought out and such, just that it's so clunky that it really should be it's own single power with it's own rules.

[Robyn]

Re: 'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

 

Anyone attempting to use a Mental Power on the corpse will automatically target the spirit. Anyone using an attack on the corpse that would affect the spirit (such as an Affects Desol EB)' date=' it has whatever effect on the corpse and the spirit equally. This is probably better done as a Physical Limitation for the spirit rather than a Side Effect on any of its Powers.[/quote']

 

Have the Desolidified turn off; if necessary, Shapechange the spirit to the size and shape of the Focus.

 

When "possessing" the body, it occupies the same space as the body, and is Desolid only to that body; every other material substance can affect both the body and it, equally.

[Dust Raven]

Re: 'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

 

I thought of that originally, but then decided I liked the feel of it better as a limitation on the naked 'Affects Phsyical World' Advantage because it is really a limitation/side effect of using the advantage.

 

The reason I suggest a Disad instead of a Limitation is because it should have the same value for all ghosts who do this, regardless of their level of power while possessing the corpse. If one ghost's possessed corpse has a 40 STR while another has only 20, the one with 40 shouldn't be saving extra points.

 

Disads can be conditional; it's all in how you adjust the frequency. So the ghost can completely avoid the vulnerability if he doesn't possess a corpse (which makes sense, there is no corpse there to get automatically injured along with him). Another method is to just ignore that element and have such Affects Desol Power affect the ghost only and leave the body alone (since it's unbreakable).

[Dust Raven]

Re: 'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

 

Have the Desolidified turn off; if necessary, Shapechange the spirit to the size and shape of the Focus.

 

When "possessing" the body, it occupies the same space as the body, and is Desolid only to that body; every other material substance can affect both the body and it, equally.

 

The thing is, for most cases of an animated corpse, destroying the corpse doesn't hurt/damage the possessing entity at all. Should the corpse be destroyed, it just moves on to animate something else (or is otherwise driven off by the shock of losing its temporary body).

[radioKAOS]

Re: 'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Dust Raven again.

 

I must say, you're good.

[Alibear]

Re: 'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

 

There's a few people on these boards whose opinion I really respect when it comes to design using the Hero rules. Dust Raven is one of 'em.

[Cwylric]

Re: 'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

 

I don't want to give away too much of Hero Games's IP here; but essentially the Bodyjacking construct is Mind Control plus Desolid plus Clinging (to "ride" the body) plus Telepathy (to read the host's thoughts and memories - that last is probably optional). There are various Advantages and Limitations to customize it.

 

Thanks for the info. So is this one power, which mimics those you listed, or a cobbled-together construction of several powers? If it's the latter, then it seems kind of kludgy. One very seldom has to make new powers in HERO, but once you start having to glue together more than three to do one thing, it starts to make sense to do so. And the Clinging thing still seems very weird and "make do", to me, given the mental nature of the desired effect.

 

Regarding Possession generally, the topic comes up on the boards fairly frequently, and there have been a number of suggestions for how to handle it, both based on "official" published builds and original ideas. Here's a representative sampling of the discussions:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3857

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19400

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23428

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19968

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28354

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32941

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32927

 

Whoah! Thanks for the research! I can see that I have some reading to do.

[Cwylric]

Re: 'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

 

This is exactly how I'd do it. As far as the write up anyway. Concerning the effect is there essentially being a single character rather than two distinct characters' date=' I'd use common sense in regards to the SFX. For one, there is only one character/body and never two. The corpse is just a Focus and should be treated as such during game play. It might not be obvious to those that can't perceive the spirit that the corpse is a focus and they might attack the corpse thinking it is the character. In which case, treat it like they are attack a Focus (but ignore the usual -2 penalty). Consider the corpse an Unbreakable Focus and you won't have to worry about it taking damage. The method of breaking it would involve traditional methods of stopping undead (fire, magic, divine power, etc).[/quote']

 

Most of this makes sense to me - I especially like the Unbreakable Focus affected by traditional undead-killers notion, as it just feels right. There is one problem though: this would leave the spirit with its own physical stats, not those of the possessed body, when it was alive. Part of the point of this construction is that the spirit should appear to literally replace the deceased person (physically not mentally, of course). The merged entity should have the STR, CON, etc. that the deceased had in life - not those of the spirit. I'm thinking that a related Variable Power Pool might handle this, although this still does not fix the problem of some of the corpse's stats possibly being lower than the spirit's.

 

Anyone attempting to use a Mental Power on the corpse will automatically target the spirit. Anyone using an attack on the corpse that would affect the spirit (such as an Affects Desol EB)' date=' it has whatever effect on the corpse and the spirit equally. This is probably better done as a Physical Limitation for the spirit rather than a Side Effect on any of its Powers.[/quote']

 

Makes sense. I agree that it should be a Limitation, since that would make it consistent for all such spirits and not dependent on the points spent on the related powers. Being susceptible to mental powers that attack your host sounds like a specific problem, not really a power-cost-related one.

[Cwylric]

Re: 'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

 

I'm not sure where you're seeing a disconnect here' date=' the corpse is an inamimate object, not a character. It should be thought of as a focus, and that focus is a limitation on allowing your character to affect the physical world. The naked advantage would work for any power up to the specified Active Point limit, that is to say it would allow you to use your powers (including such things as your STR) in the physical realm.[/quote']

 

Mostly I agree about the focus thing; however, as I mentioned in my last post, to Dust Raven, there needs to be a connection between the spirit and the deceased, as (s)he was in life, vis-a-vis STR, CON, and other such physical stats. Also, I was referring to the "connection", wherein the spirit rides along with the corpse and is affected by damage that targets it. The fact that the body is now an inanimate object is irrelevant, as I'm not talking about any sort of mental connection - just the physical connection of them sharing the same space, motion, damage, etc., which is highly abnormal for any sort of Focus. Anyway, some of DR's ideas do cover this, so that problem may be at least partially solved. That stat problem is still up in the air.

 

Agreed' date=' that is a great question that has been floating around this board for a long time... However, this is not what you are asking for in this power build. You are asking to be able to possess a dead human. A corpse. The corpse is inanimate. It is a dead thing, much like a sword or a toaster. It is a focus, not a character, in my mindset.[/quote']

 

Yes, but, as I said, it interacts with the spirit in a relatively abnormal fashion. If it was simply a case of the Focus allowing the spirit to interact with the physical world, then I wouldn't have had a problem in the first place. But the spirit must interact through the Focus and be affected by its physical nature. In other words, the Focus will change with each use of the power, and the result (physical stats, mobility, etc.) will be partially dependent on the nature of the new Focus. Hopefully, I'm making myself more clear, now... (BTW, this last thought smacks, once again, of Variable Power Pool. I'm starting to think that is going to factor in here somewhere.)

 

It fills the niche' date=' rather clumsily IMO, of taking over another character's body. Not to say the power build isn't very well thought out and such, just that it's so clunky that it really should be it's own single power with it's own rules.[/quote']

 

Yup, that's what I was beginning to think, as I mentioned to Lord Liaden.

[Dust Raven]

Re: 'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

 

Most of this makes sense to me - I especially like the Unbreakable Focus affected by traditional undead-killers notion' date=' as it just feels right. There is one problem though: this would leave the spirit with its own physical stats, not those of the possessed body, when it was alive. Part of the point of this construction is that the spirit should appear to literally replace the deceased person (physically not mentally, of course). The merged entity should have the STR, CON, etc. that the deceased had in life - not those of the spirit. I'm thinking that a related Variable Power Pool might handle this, although this still does not fix the problem of some of the corpse's stats possibly being [i']lower[/i] than the spirit's.

 

I see. I thought it was a supernatural element in that it didn't matter which corpse the ghost possessed. Any given possessed corpse would have "ghost possessed corpse" STR, etc. rather than the STR of the ghost or any individual corpse. In this case, you can just put a Limitation on the STR "Only Up To The Original STR Of Possessed Corpse".

 

As to the issues of things like CON, I really don't see that as being an issue. A corpse is a corpse. Unless you are saying that through this possession, it actually come back alive, full flesh and blood and breathing. In that case, I would write up the possession as a Multiform (or perhaps a VPP with only Multiforms) with the corpse getting up and living again the SFX.

[radioKAOS]

Re: 'Possess the recently Dead' thought....

 

I see. I thought it was a supernatural element in that it didn't matter which corpse the ghost possessed. Any given possessed corpse would have "ghost possessed corpse" STR' date=' etc. rather than the STR of the ghost or any individual corpse. In this case, you can just put a Limitation on the STR "Only Up To The Original STR Of Possessed Corpse".[/quote']

 

Seconded.