Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

[keithcurtis]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

Elemental sulfur can be found near hot springs and volcanic regions in many parts of the world, especially along the Pacific Ring of Fire. These occurrences are the basis for the traditional name brimstone, since sulfur could be found near the brims of volcanic craters. Such volcanic deposits are currently exploited in Indonesia, Chile, and Japan.

Significant desposits of elemental sulfur also exist in salt domes along the coast of the Gulf of Mexico, and in evaporites in eastern Europe and western Asia. The sulfur in these deposits is believed to come from the action of anaerobic bacteria on sulfate minerals, especially gypsum. Such deposits are the basis for commercial production in the United States, Poland, Russia, Turkmenistan, and Ukraine.

Sulfur extracted from oil, gas and the Athabasca Oil Sands has become a glut on the market, with huge stockpiles of sulfur in existence throughout Alberta.

Sulfur mined in Alberta, prepared for shipment at Vancouver, B. C.

Common naturally-occurring sulfur compounds include the metal sulfides, such as pyrite (iron sulfide), cinnabar (mercury sulfide), galena (lead sulfide), sphalerite (zinc sulfide) and stibnite (antimony sulfide); and the metal sulfates, such as gypsum (calcium sulfate), alunite (potassium aluminium sulfate), and barite (barium sulfate). Hydrogen sulfide is the gas responsible for the odor of rotten eggs. It occurs naturally in volcanic emissions, such as from hydrothermal vents, and from bacterial action on decaying sulfur-containing organic matter.

 

Keith "Passive Researcher" Curtis

[Glupii]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I know mentioning anything D20 on here is near sacralidge, but I picked up the D20 Gamma World and it had a very interesting and well thought out storyline. I recommend it highly even if only to convert to Hero. Basically man got too big for his britches and played God one too many times. Through genetic mangling, it became a hobby of sort to tinker with an animal's DNA and make them something else, and often with an intelligence. Artificial intelligence was perfected to the point where everything from common household appliances to deathdealing doomsday machines had sentience. Nano technology grew to the point of making nearly anything possible from multiplying lifespans 10 fold to creating something from nothing much like Star Trek's replicators. And when man became bored with playing god, he does what man has always done. He got greedy and started wars. But now the kind of war that was possible to fight brought total destruction to the population. Computers that once ran cities were infected with viruses and now destroyed that which they were created to help. New genetic races fled for their lives and hid from the humans and their maddness. Nanites, lacking instruction, continue to replicate and do what ever their last instruction was. Nature herself reals under the impact.

 

a few hundred years later, few remain alive that know even what the ancient technology was used for much less how to duplicate or control it. Enter the start of a campaign.

 

I thought it was pretty believable and found it down right scary. But anyway, there is my take on it. Good Luck

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

Thanks Gulupii, I will keep that in mind. I will have to add it to my list of books. I may look for an ebay deal. Unfortunately my list of wants (especially non-gaming - like a Nikon d70) will probably keep me from pursuing this for a year or so.

 

I have no problem with D20. It was Neverwinter Nights that got me back into gaming, or at least thinking about gaming.

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I am planning a world that is not quite a fantastic as Gamma World. I have an earlier edition of Gamma World - I like some of the races/creatures but I do not like the over-the-top attributes (fish with radioactive oil, moths that shoot radiation, etc.) I am thinking a bit more pumped up than than Planet of the Apes.

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On the subject of gun powder- does modern gunpowder have any other ingredients to make it better than the gunpowder of yesteryear?

 

Suppose a person was to take a .22 shell and hand-load it with old-time gunpowder (what else do i call it) what would be the effect? I guess i am asking if modern bullets were shot using 17th century gunpowder would it's effectiveness be greatly diminished?

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[Yansuf]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

On the subject of gun powder- does modern gunpowder have any other ingredients to make it better than the gunpowder of yesteryear?

 

Suppose a person was to take a .22 shell and hand-load it with old-time gunpowder (what else do i call it) what would be the effect? I guess i am asking if modern bullets were shot using 17th century gunpowder would it's effectiveness be greatly diminished?

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Yes. Modern "smokeless" powder is very different from old time "black" powder.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I liked the Kamandi rationale. There was a drug/magicalcomicbookserum that increased the intelligence of animals that drank it. They also became bipedal. OK, that's the magical part, but you could probably hadwave it today with some sort of nanotechnology/engineered virus folderol. But anyway, it had the exact opposite effect on humans, causing them to become gutteral savages.

The cities survived, to some degree. A few protected humans survived. Animals gradually assumed intelligence, but lost a lot of technology and culture during the rise.

 

Keith "And he got to ride a giant mutated cricket. How cool is that?" Curtis

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

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On the subject of gun powder- does modern gunpowder have any other ingredients to make it better than the gunpowder of yesteryear?

 

Suppose a person was to take a .22 shell and hand-load it with old-time gunpowder (what else do i call it) what would be the effect? I guess i am asking if modern bullets were shot using 17th century gunpowder would it's effectiveness be greatly diminished?

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The damage using black powder would be at least 1 DC less than the modern weapon's regular damage. It would also get dirty really fast, and be very likely to malfunction in combat.

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

Keith "Passive Researcher" Curtis

 

It appears that sulpur is almost as common as dung and carbon. Looks like nobody would necessarily have the upperhand in gunpowder manufucturing. The limiting factor would be (i assume) the ability to produce in quality and quantities.

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I liked the Kamandi rationale. There was a drug/magicalcomicbookserum that increased the intelligence of animals that drank it. They also became bipedal. OK, that's the magical part, but you could probably hadwave it today with some sort of nanotechnology/engineered virus folderol. But anyway, it had the exact opposite effect on humans, causing them to become gutteral savages.

The cities survived, to some degree. A few protected humans survived. Animals gradually assumed intelligence, but lost a lot of technology and culture during the rise.

 

Keith "And he got to ride a giant mutated cricket. How cool is that?" Curtis

 

Perhaps you are right.

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

Has anybody used the DnD module "Expidition to Barrier Peaks" for either a hero or super hero campaign? It looks like it would fit in nicely with some alterations (I dislike the old grey ooze in room 1, yellow mold in room 2, displacer beast in room 4, etc). It would provide not only a post-apoclolypic scenerio but it would make for an interesting blastfest for supers.

 

It has a mind flayer. I thought that for a campaign it would be interesting if a number of them (like three or so) got free and started doing some weird stuff. For instance- one going to South America and starting a weird cult. Another going to US and manipulating the government... In a non-super scenerio it would start its own dictatorship with its own weird twists.

[Old Man]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

On the subject of gun powder- does modern gunpowder have any other ingredients to make it better than the gunpowder of yesteryear?

 

Suppose a person was to take a .22 shell and hand-load it with old-time gunpowder (what else do i call it) what would be the effect? I guess i am asking if modern bullets were shot using 17th century gunpowder would it's effectiveness be greatly diminished?

-----------------

 

Black powder also explodes more abruptly than modern gunpowder, which means it's somewhat more likely to overpressure the chamber (i.e. explode the gun). I don't think that's worth simulating in the game though.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

And for those of you looking for a multitude of ways to end the earth, I present Exit Mundi: http://www.exitmundi.nl/exitmundi.htm

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

Interesting site. He definitely thought the scenerios out. If he wasn't so flippant in his cussing it would have been a better site.

[Lisa Nadazdy]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

Some thoughts:

 

Let's assume for discussion that the apocalypse in question was a moderate NBC sort (nuclear, biological, chemical) that targeted major cities and military bases, leaving small towns and the like intact.

 

Initially, there would be panic, looting, etc. and breakdown of order, but eventually most people would start looking to their local community to find a way to survive and rebuild, especially in the closer-knit small towns.

 

Here are some of the problems they would have to overcome-

 

1. Power. Modern communities rely heavily on electricity, from heating homes to cooking food and so forth. It is estimated that there would be a total collapse of the power grid throughout North America within 24 to 48 hours. That means no power to run the stoves, or heat homes or light up the dark at night. Also, this means no water, and the pumping stations would shut down along with the power grid. So, no more baths or clean clothes for a while. Water would have to be taken from odd sources, like bottled water (whatever can be scrounged) or the back of the toilet (it's pretty clean, actually). Also, no refridgeration, and that means most perishable foods would be unedible within weeks. Canned food would likely be a staple for a number of months.

 

Some of this can be solved with portable gas or diesel generators, but then we run into the next problem...

 

2. Fuel. With the power grid down, so do the refineries (assuming there any left after the nukes), meaning no more fuel production. This means that small communities will have to ration what's left, taking most of it from abandoned vehicles and the like. Gasoline stations are more problematic, as without electricity, the pumps won't pull fuel out of the tanks in the ground. A clever community will find a way to get, either by hooking up the power to a portable generator, or using a generator to siphon it out of the ground. Depending on how much fuel is in the community, they could stretch it out for some time, and even go abroad to get more.

 

3. Clean Water. I touched on this before, but it bears it's own category. Clean water will likely be the one thing that makes or breaks a community's survival. Even if the local pumping stations still functioned, it extremely difficult to say if the water would remain drinkable, what with fallout and other contaminants seeping into the ground water after the war. It's very likely it wouldn't be safe, so what then? I mentioned bottled water and toilet water, but those won't go far, and within months a community will have to find another source. If the community is near the mountains, they could use the runoff from melting snowcaps to get water, but there is no way to be certain that it's clean, either- fallout is insidious that way. There's no easy answer to this one- the community is going to have to take it's chances and use whatever water purification systems they have and hope for the best.

 

4. Food. Not as crucial as water will be, but still important. Once canned goods dry up (within 6 months, very likely), they'll either have to travel abroad to get more canned goods, or find other ways to feed the community. Hunting and gathering can be used to a limited effect, but a smart community will turn to agriculture (farming) to feed a community. Assuming the ground soil isn't too contaminated, this will work. Work will have to be done by hand, unless the community wants to expend precious fuel to run farm machinery.

 

Livestock will be a harder affair- bio weapons could have untold effects on animals, and make them dangerous to eat, or even pass on diseases to the community.

 

5. Environmental difficulties- Plagues, fallout and freak weather changes can all affect the survival of a community. Even a a robust community can be laid low by fallout- radioactive dust and regular dust look exactly the same, and breathing in fallout can be fatal.

 

6. Outsiders- not everyone will perish in the apocalypse, and the survivors will do whatever they can to survive- for awhile they'll scavenge what they can, but eventually many will fall into a community of some sort or another- safety in numbers. Some of these groups won't be very interested in simple survival- there will be those who will believe that the strong should have the right to rule the weak- using force of arms to take what they want. Seeing a surviving community, perhaps with clean water and the like, outsiders may plot to take this away from them...

 

7. Survival skills. This one is perhaps the most debatable, as everyone thinks they can survive if push comes to shove, but the fact is, most people can't make fire without a lighter, and they really don't have much in the name of survival skills. Without these skills, a communities survival becomes questionable.

 

Something else to note- rebuilding civilization will not be as simple as some people think- how many people have engineering skills sufficient to build stuff from scratch? How many people are skilled enough carpenters to build new homes and other structures? The biggest problem rebuilding civilization is that not very many people have the knowledge and skills to start building from scratch. Hell, how many people know how to work metal and do basic blacksmithing? How many people can tan leather or sew clothes? How many people can weave fiber into cloth? Not very many, and it would take some time before we relearn these things.

 

So us coming back from the war in a few generations? Not likely, IMO.

[tinman]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I think a backlash among the survivors against the civilisation that destroyed itself would be the biggest impediment to the restoration of that civilisation.

 

After such a horrific event, it would be very easy for people to equate high technology and large scale societies with apocolypse. After a generation or so no one would remember the old life, and it would be easy for it to become a cautionary tale.

 

"Don't get too fancy with that contraption boy, it's fiddlin' like that what brought the end times. Best to leave well enough alone and trust to hard work to get things done."

 

edit - it pays to read the thread before posting, looks like keithcurtis brought this point up on page one and threw in some excellent literary references to boot

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

Some thoughts:

 

So us coming back from the war in a few generations? Not likely, IMO.

 

Great thoughts.

 

I never said nor implied that civilization would rebuild in two generations (20 years). The point I was trying to make it that by the time it takes for enough wierd diversity civilization would take hold (say a couple or few hundred years) it would no longer be the semi-feudalistic medieval world.

 

Unless there was a total peppering of our continent with nuclear missles, I do not see the total anarchy that you suppose. The big determination is what is left intact and what type of government(s) form.

 

Survival. Sewing isn't that hard. Blacksmithing? I know a few. Milling lumber, I know where some saws are laying vacant. Bad water? I can boil it.

 

Now those living in the desert may have a very rough time!

 

Once our country reached a stabalizing point (when we start producing a surplus of goods) then it would be a quicker path to advancement since all the knowledge has been gained and recorded. I am not saying that it would be an easy or quick path. What I am saying is that once we get to the 18th century level of sufficiency it would take us less time to get to the 20th century than it did the first time.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

This was the case in A Canticle for Leibowitz. With the help of the Abbey documents, civilization rebuilt itself slightly faster.

 

However, paper deteriorates very fast if it is not cared for. Computer records are useless without a decent technological infrastructure, and the signal to noise ratio of useful info vs. useless trivia is very high.

Without good records, why wouldn't a civilization stay at a certain level for as long as you needed for a given story? Once the first generation dies off, all the inertia built up by society takes a heavy blow. Their children and children's children might either have difficulty believing such wonders existed, or just figure that all that technology just got everyone killed.

 

The length of your climb from barbarism depends greatly on the accessibility of the "old knowledge"

 

Keith "From the fury of the Strontium/O Lord deliver us" Curtis

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I will have to check out the book.

 

I think that what we have is a basic philosphical difference in man's abilility pull out of the miasma. It think it would take more than a generation (20 years or 40 years) to destory the memories and beliefs.

 

There are just too many books. Low humidity places, the books could last for a very long time. Even abused books these days last for a long time. With the literacy rate as high as it is (even in the USA) people would be collecting, reading and caring for books for a very long time.

 

Maybe the best plan is to kill (or transport) most people off and make the enviroment so bad that those left do not have time to think of anything but survival for a very long time.

 

Perhaps I am splitting hairs, but I greatly enjoy the dialgoue. BTW - I realize that realism does not necessarily make things more fun. It may be that I would just have to decare it via a fiat, without offering any explanation (even to myself).

[keithcurtis]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I will have to check out the book.

Please do. It's one of the all-time classics of Science Fiction in that it works as literature as well as a good story. Don't bother with the (written much later) sequel.

 

Keith "NPR also did a great radio adaptation of it" Curtis

[Lisa Nadazdy]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I will have to check out the book.

 

I think that what we have is a basic philosphical difference in man's abilility pull out of the miasma. It think it would take more than a generation (20 years or 40 years) to destory the memories and beliefs.

 

There are just too many books. Low humidity places, the books could last for a very long time. Even abused books these days last for a long time. With the literacy rate as high as it is (even in the USA) people would be collecting, reading and caring for books for a very long time.

 

Maybe the best plan is to kill (or transport) most people off and make the enviroment so bad that those left do not have time to think of anything but survival for a very long time.

 

Perhaps I am splitting hairs, but I greatly enjoy the dialgoue. BTW - I realize that realism does not necessarily make things more fun. It may be that I would just have to decare it via a fiat, without offering any explanation (even to myself).

 

That all depends if there's much of anyone left to teach any of it. Even if someone knows how to read and write, that doesn't mean they have the ability to understand the language in technical manuals or the science in many of the textbooks. For instance, my SO is an astrophysics major with a background in nuclear engineering, and has dozens upon dozens of manuals and textbooks on engineering, astronomy, gravitation, optics and other subjects, but if I crack one of these books open, I can honestly say that I would have only a vague idea what any of this stuff means, and that's only because I have a bit of scientific knowledge to help. A person who only has a basic education might never understand it- it might as well as be an alien language.

 

The reason knowledge continues to flourish in the modern world is because there are people trained to teach the stuff, to disseminate the knowledge interpret the texts and to help other people understand what's being taught. It's possible to learn this stuff without such aids, but it becomes that much more difficult, because to learn stuff like astrophysics, I'd need to learn calculus, advanced calculus, a host of lesser physics texts and so forth before I can begin to really understand what's written in an astrophysics text. If you don't have someone to guide you through that process, then the textbooks are just so much gibberish.

 

I've heard it said that less than 5% of people alive today understand how all the stuff that makes everything we rely on work. How many people sitting in front of a computer understand how an operating system works? How many people understand the principles of electricity so that could wire a machine to an alternate power source other than a wall socket? Much of what we rely on in life we really don't understand, and in a post-apocalypse world, that lack of knowledge could hurt us.

 

Last thing- modern civilization is a huge anomoly historically- history has been recorded mankind's progress for around ten thousand years, but the modern world has only existed for about perhaps 100 to 150 years. If we fell back into barbarism, are we really so sure we'd pull out of it quickly?

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I do not believe that anybody who picks up a text will understand it just because they can read it. But my point is this - literacy will continue. While people may not understand all the modern stuff that we have today they will be pointed in the right direction. There will still be people with gifts in areas (such as biology, mathmatics, etc) and the books they find will lead them in the right direction.

 

If just imagine if a set of World Book encyclopedias were given to 18th century Americans/Europeans. While they would not be able to build computers or split the atom, they would have a great jumpstart in understanding how the world does work. Even with such a low level series of books they would know where to look for the answers they seek. While they may not understand Astrophysics like our college professors they will undertand it like our high schoolers do (or should) which would be a head-start.

 

As far as figuring out calculus and such, not only did we do it once, but several different civ's and countries did figure it out at about the same time . And that was a long time ago without the use of calculators!

 

 

I do not think we would fall into barbarism. I believe that unless there was an almost complete devistation, people would get back on track -eventually. It may take a hundred years. It may not be the same as before. It may not be a happy place. We may not have the Internet and Kentuky Fried Chicken. But civilization would advance.

 

You say history is an anomaly. WIKI defines that word as "An anomaly is something which deviates from the standard or expected." I do not see how that fits. I am not an evolutionist (and no I am not trying to start that discussion!) but such fits within an evolutionistic framework.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

We may not have the Internet and Kentuky Fried Chicken. But civilization would advance.

 

Would you consider a world without the Internet or Kentucky Fried Chicken to be truly civilized?

[egaroadkill]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I run a pochyplix campaign where the human race discovers a comet is about to hit in a few weeks. You might think it’s the same old cliché story but I twist it a bit.

The campaigns first adventure starts months before when the players discover the government has known for a couple of years and rather than telling everyone, it tries desperately to silence the news or eliminate any leaks while secret underground facilities are built for the politicians, VIP’s and what not. To hell with the public, only the rich and powerful are going to live.

The game typically has this frantic, run for your lives through the growing chaos and suits with machine guns hunting you, feel but twists again as the comet misses the planet. What’s left are a lot of pissed off people who survived the riots/wars having no love for the politicians who sold them out, no effective governments and tiny, hidden, isolated bunkers of few, well armed elitists wanting there power back.

Friends tell me the game has a sort of “Postman”, “Jeremiah”, TW2000, Red Dawn feel to it.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

7. Survival skills. This one is perhaps the most debatable, as everyone thinks they can survive if push comes to shove, but the fact is, most people can't make fire without a lighter, and they really don't have much in the name of survival skills. Without these skills, a communities survival becomes questionable.

 

Something else to note- rebuilding civilization will not be as simple as some people think- how many people have engineering skills sufficient to build stuff from scratch? How many people are skilled enough carpenters to build new homes and other structures? The biggest problem rebuilding civilization is that not very many people have the knowledge and skills to start building from scratch. Hell, how many people know how to work metal and do basic blacksmithing? How many people can tan leather or sew clothes? How many people can weave fiber into cloth? Not very many, and it would take some time before we relearn these things.

 

So us coming back from the war in a few generations? Not likely, IMO.

Well done evaluation.

I quoted this bit because its something I gave serious thought to during the early bits of the whole Y2K farce. I came to the conclusion that, ironically enough, those of us in the re-enactor community would probably do a lot better in a post apoc environment than most.

Not so much the ren faire nuts (like myself) expect for the odd obsessive wingnut who is REALLY interested in how things were done (once again, like myself). The SCA has inherent advantages in a huge network (the SCA is the largest "Civilian Milita" in the USA), a fairly widespread understanding of primitive weapons, and a LOT of people who compete to show how well they can do things the old fahioned way. The Civil war guys are kinda nuts, but they have black powder guns, tents and good gear... and there are a lot of them out there. The Buckskinners are probably the least numerous, but best prepared of the lot... Most Buckskinners I've met would be ready and able to shift into survival mode at almost a moments notice.

 

So, I'm pretty sure that a certain level of knowledge would survive, but in fairly limited enclaves.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I will have to check it out. It will go on my list.

 

 

On gunpowder - saltpeter, carbon and sulphur. Carbon is easy to get. Other than Yellowstone, where would a person find naturally occuring sulphur? Where do you get/manufacture saltpeter - at least in a pre-industrial aged civilization?

In a pre-industrial society, another main source for saltpeter is mining from caves inhabited by bats or birds.. their dung produces saltpeter quite well.

Other sources that have historically been used...

Graveyards

Night soil collectors (yes, there was a class of folk who collected the contents of outhouses and dried the resultant product to collect the saltpeter and let human waste convert to usable fertilizer.

 

And black powder would work best in manual action guns, in general. You'd have to clean 'em more often, but most would still shoot.